Rin & Lilly

[Brogurt]

I'm fairly certain all this talk of white-knighting is referring exclusively to the motivations of the player for choosing Hanako's path. We want to protect and tenderly love our saccharine moeblobs because doing so is the nature of a white knight. That doesn't mean it has happened in the story yet.

[anonymoose]

I was browsing around the forums for the first time and decided I wanted to give my two cents to this thread as a person who has Rin as a favorite and Lilly as a second choice.

To be honest, it all really depends on how much the VN lives up to my first judgment of it. A long while ago when act 1 was released and I was seeing info for it, my very first thought about the game was "weeaboo fetish fuel," not gonna lie. I decided after some pushing to give it a go and was glad to see I was proved wrong in most aspects. Keep in mind I have a very low opinion of VNs after horrible experiences in the past so I was reading it with a really critical attitude. At first Emi was my least preferred choice, but after I REALLY thought about it, it went like this:

Rin > Lilly > Emi > Hanako > Shizune

The reason why Emi was moved up, is because I decided I didn't really get enough story about her to make proper judgment, and was solely disliking her for appearing to be the "loli" of the typical VN genre as is my kneejerk reaction to the said bad experiences with VNs. (and yes I realize I am now wrong, especially after her art upgrade) I really don't have much of an opinion of her except for a really bland act 1 path, but I like how her disability is handled overall.

Shizune is pretty straightforward, I mostly just find her characterization to be confusing and sometimes maddening. I really can not stand her interpreter so it's almost painful to play through her path with her in the way. (and I get confused very often on who is talking) Her path also seems to get incredibly dull at times, like that long tea shop scene where absolutely nothing of interest happened. As for Shizune herself, I was glad to see it didn't go the route of the anime template of silent chick with an attitude who becomes endearing through cute faces... If I ignore that kitty face and the strange panty shot out of nowhere. Also her pushy attitude gets on my nerves, especially when you're not aiming for her path, and if you are it becomes cumbersome because "YES I AM GOING TO JOIN OKAY PLEASE GET ON WITH IT."

As for Hanako, my reasoning for disliking her is almost the exact opposite of Shizune. She just seems to be the most "wishy-washy" when it came to the handling of the psychological elements of disabled folk. Without getting too deep, I feel she is mostly a waste of a better characterization that could have been for the kind of disability she has, and instead goes on to use one of the biggest templates of anime girls ever that is played out everywhere even without any disability of any sort. (just add insecurity issues and viola! ORIGINALITY!) Also I am saying this as a person who has grown up with a family member (one year older than me) who is a burn victim herself and so I have experienced a certain behavior first-hand. Yes, I realize not every burn victim has the same personality or reaction, and yes I realize that burn victims with smaller scarring are still susceptible to the same behavior as those with more extreme scarring, but that still does not absolve the... Ugh, fine I'll say it: "moe" template. Unfortunately the type of "shyness" shown from Hanako and many other anime girls is a very, very different thing from the kind that burn victims usually have, and that's why I find her to be the most disappointing in the sense of my previous mentioning of kneejerk reactions to the typical VN. And yes, a vibe of white-knighting is given off from the first act, not my thing when it comes to disabilities. The only reason why I prefer her over Shizune is that she is not as unpleasant to play through.

And thus why Rin and Lilly are my first choices, is because their disabilities are not only handled the best IMO, but because the writing for their paths I find to be the most rebellious to what is expected from VN behavior, and so they feel genuine and interesting. I believe of course, that disabilities never affect a person's personality or anything else related to it, but that they should also be ignored to exist altogether and not affect behavior or philosophies etc. is nonsense. Rin and Lilly I feel best frame that line of thinking for me.

I should mention of course, that my opinions reflect on first impressions from act 1, and that they are on limbo should act 2 change my mind.

Thank you for listening to the opinion of a person who doesn't really like anime or VNs!

[Brogurt]

I might want to point out that these are girls with disabilities, not disabilities with girls attached to them.

[Xeoniriel]

As for Hanako, my reasoning for disliking her is almost the exact opposite of Shizune. She just seems to be the most "wishy-washy" when it came to the handling of the psychological elements of disabled folk. Without getting too deep, I feel she is mostly a waste of a better characterization that could have been for the kind of disability she has, and instead goes on to use one of the biggest templates of anime girls ever that is played out everywhere even without any disability of any sort. (just add insecurity issues and viola! ORIGINALITY!) Also I am saying this as a person who has grown up with a family member (one year older than me) who is a burn victim herself and so I have experienced a certain behavior first-hand. Yes, I realize not every burn victim has the same personality or reaction, and yes I realize that burn victims with smaller scarring are still susceptible to the same behavior as those with more extreme scarring, but that still does not absolve the... Ugh, fine I'll say it: "moe" template. Unfortunately the type of "shyness" shown from Hanako and many other anime girls is a very, very different thing from the kind that burn victims usually have, and that's why I find her to be the most disappointing in the sense of my previous mentioning of kneejerk reactions to the typical VN. And yes, a vibe of white-knighting is given off from the first act, not my thing when it comes to disabilities. The only reason why I prefer her over Shizune is that she is not as unpleasant to play through.

I'll state off the start that I don't have Hanako as my 'favourite' route or character, but it seems many have been misinterpreting or clearly not reading the writing on the Hanako path because it is mentioned several times that she is fearful of others and she has not only physical but emotional scarring (her dad died in the fire too) so I have no clue where so many people seem to think of her as 'moe' at this point in time. All I have gathered from the route is that she ends the route being still very cautious of Hisao and has deep psychological problems that your character may or may not be the key to fixing by starting out as friends and later on seeing something more depending on if you bad end or good end. But then again, everything at this point is speculative so we all could be horribly wrong and Hanako turns out to be a heart devouring plague-beast.

[Anonymoose]

@Brogurt
I mention the handling of disabilities being important because once again, I play VNs with initial kneejerk reactions and this is clearly a VN using "disabled girls" as the gimmick. I do not judge the girls based on their disability alone, however I feel compelled to review how I find them to be handled appropriately within fiction (especially of a "romantic" VN variety) being a woman with a disability myself and working with disabled children on a daily basis.

@Xeon
I apologize, perhaps "moe" was the wrong term to use. I am not too familiar with these anime terms. I mainly just mean the "shy girl" template you see in many, many animes, VNs, whatever, meant to endear people into loving them instantly.

The whole time I was playing Hanako's path I was thinking "well this has been okay, though not as good as it could have been, but at least there's no white-knighting." And then the ending came and I was like "... B|" Of course I should mention that I only got white-knighting "vibes" as in, it's too soon to tell whether it's going down that route or not so I am not judging her entire path as of yet until the full version is out. Hey man, I have no problem with people wanting to play a romance game to white-knight at least one girl, but unfortunately it rubs me the wrong way so that's just like, my opinion or whatever.

Yeah, I am aware of the whole "fear of people" thing, but like I mentioned I don't think the way it's presented or written appears to be any different than the typical "shy girl" + "with trauma". It's kind of difficult to explain, but like I mentioned before it's mostly because I see it as a wasted potential that avoided using a more complex approach to the psychological behavior of an individual burn victim and went the easier route. If there is a deep fear of people due to fire-related trauma there I have a hard time seeing it in how she behaves, for example, as in when she appears to be mostly calm in being alone in a room and socializing with Hisao in such a short amount of time. Easier routes are fine, but I still judge them as such.

For the record I should mention I don't dislike this game nor do I think any of the girls were handled in an immature or offensive way. (act 1 at least) Back way before act 1 was released, I was playing a crapload of VNs for a proposed review blog between my friend and I, and I didn't like a single one. I played and reviewed many from Tsukihime, Saya No Uta, Yume Miru Kusuri, etc. and I came out only being able to TOLERATE one. (Planetarian) I got some reviews finished but never got to start the blog because I decided I couldn't continue due to being overwhelmed by the horrible pattern elements of VNs that I didn't want to have the displeasure of playing for so long. I played act 1 with no desire to do so after these events and was pleasantly surprised. I can pretty much tell you right now, it's the only "dating" VN I have ever liked.

[scott1and]

Okay....attention all who be here arguing about the characters personalities and attributes. Look at your screen, yes, and are you sitting comfortably? Good. Now, scroll all the way up to the top of the page. Yes, I mean it, the very tippy tappity top. I would like to direct you the top left hand corner or the screen. No, not the logo, as pretty as it may be, that's not what we're looking for. Look at the wee caption, no, not that one, the one in brackets....there we go.

[G3n0c1de]

I apologize, perhaps "moe" was the wrong term to use. I am not too familiar with these anime terms. I mainly just mean the "shy girl" template you see in many, many animes, VNs, whatever, meant to endear people into loving them instantly.

"moe" is probably the correct term here. In actuality, "moe" covers a much larger variety of reasons to love fictional characters, but "shyness" definitely falls under it. For better or worse, Hanako is KS's resident moeblob. But I agree that the shy girl girl archetype you describe is common. If only for the reason that it's popular. It instantly strikes a chord with people, appealing to their caring nature, and perhaps to those who are lonely themselves.

If there is a deep fear of people due to fire-related trauma there I have a hard time seeing it in how she behaves, for example, as in when she appears to be mostly calm in being alone in a room and socializing with Hisao in such a short amount of time.

You could equate this to some people finding it hard to believe that Hisao states he's falling for Shizune at the end of Act 1, despite having known her for a week. From a structure perspective, the timelines have to be accelerated so the action happens in a reasonable amount of time. Like most fictional romance, this is idealized, not necessarily realistic. In universe, perhaps Hanako only fears people who don't know her well, because she can't know whether or not they're judging her. You remember her running away from Hisao when they first met. But if someone opens up to her, and shows that she can trust them, then she might let her guard down.

[Brogurt]

If there is a deep fear of people due to fire-related trauma there I have a hard time seeing it in how she behaves, for example, as in when she appears to be mostly calm in being alone in a room and socializing with Hisao in such a short amount of time.

I imagine that the point of that scene playing out the way it does is to prove that she's really a nice, sweet girl, who is capable of acting normally, when you get past all the insecurities and such. Maybe crud wanted to get the point across within Act 1 that there is potential for so much more, and that there is actually something there for her issues to hamper. I don't think that insisting that the fire ruined any hope she had of living a normal life would have been in much better taste. Because as it stands with the demo being released such a long time before the subsequent acts, I think that's the only other way it could have ended, if she hadn't shown any signs of improvement.

Okay....attention all who be here arguing about the characters personalities and attributes. Look at your screen, yes, and are you sitting comfortably? Good. Now, scroll all the way up to the top of the page. Yes, I mean it, the very tippy tappity top. I would like to direct you the top left hand corner or the screen. No, not the logo, as pretty as it may be, that's not what we're looking for. Look at the wee caption, no, not that one, the one in brackets....there we go.

I'm not seeing any signs of panic here, and if you are interpreting these extremely long-winded posts as such, I think you should reconsider your stance. These forums are for discussing the game.


Also,
>topic named Rin & Lilly
>turns into a discussion about Hanako

[Mirage_GSM]

"moe" is probably the correct term here. In actuality, "moe" covers a much larger variety of reasons to love fictional characters, but "shyness" definitely falls under it. ...

I very much dislike the term "moe".
In principle, this term describes any character that has been designed to appeal to a specific audience, be that because of shyness, wearing glasses, short hair, long hair, big boobs, small boobs, a bodybuilder's physique... Well I admit the target audience for the latter would probably be rather small, when talking about female characters
Just by the definition I guess at least 80% of all characters could be called moe in one way or the other. (The remaining 20% being antagonists nobody is supposed to like, but who somebody somewhere probably finds sexy as well...)
Anyway, every last (female - let's exclude the male cast for simplicity's sake) KS character is moe. The extent of the "moeness" could be measured by how many of the readers the character appeals to. As Hanako seems to be the most popular of the girls, she could be said to be the most moe, or at least the most successful at being moe.

[atat]

Okay....attention all who be here arguing about the characters personalities and attributes. Look at your screen, yes, and are you sitting comfortably? Good. Now, scroll all the way up to the top of the page. Yes, I mean it, the very tippy tappity top. I would like to direct you the top left hand corner or the screen. No, not the logo, as pretty as it may be, that's not what we're looking for. Look at the wee caption, no, not that one, the one in brackets....there we go.

I'm Jewish, we live for debate. It's an important part of society and culture.

[Bara]

Okay....attention all who be here arguing about the characters personalities and attributes. Look at your screen, yes, and are you sitting comfortably? Good. Now, scroll all the way up to the top of the page. Yes, I mean it, the very tippy tappity top. I would like to direct you the top left hand corner or the screen. No, not the logo, as pretty as it may be, that's not what we're looking for. Look at the wee caption, no, not that one, the one in brackets....there we go.

I'm Jewish, we live for debate. It's an important part of society and culture.

Everyone has a different idea for where debate turns into "necrohippoflagelism".
This thread has some well expressed interesting opinions and ideas. It was worth reading even if it has wandered a tad.

[Panty Supervisor]

I very much dislike the term "moe".
In principle, this term describes any character that has been designed to appeal to a specific audience, be that because of shyness, wearing glasses, short hair, long hair, big boobs, small boobs, a bodybuilder's physique...

Yep. Moe is way too undifferentiated.
http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=82907 (NSFW because of ads)

[anonymoose]

^Okay, I opened up that chart and got a rash from just looking at it, so I don't want to know what happens if I attempt to understand it. Maybe I'll just stop using the word "moe." B(

You could equate this to some people finding it hard to believe that Hisao states he's falling for Shizune at the end of Act 1, despite having known her for a week. From a structure perspective, the timelines have to be accelerated so the action happens in a reasonable amount of time. Like most fictional romance, this is idealized, not necessarily realistic. In universe, perhaps Hanako only fears people who don't know her well, because she can't know whether or not they're judging her. You remember her running away from Hisao when they first met. But if someone opens up to her, and shows that she can trust them, then she might let her guard down.

Shizune's ending was rather unbelievable too, but I thought everyone else's was fine? ¯\O/¯ I know things gotta move fast but they can still be prone to breaking me out of the moment and thinking "excuse me this is a girl with a trauma, what happened?" I suppose Hanako is difficult to write in the aspect that her disability in a psychological sense is much more complex than the other girls', but I am here to critique fairly and not let it slide out of pity. I know, I am probably just projecting my experiences with my family member, and from what I've heard from her support group and her doctors, and though I'll probably just go around in an endless circle in this thread with the potentially hurt feelings of Hanako fans I'll just sum it up again: "Hanako feels the most clichéd, the most gratuitous, and the least attentive to genuine, believable behavior, in comparison to how the other girls are handled." That's it, there's really no more I can say about her.

I didn't really mean to derail (well sorta) but I think it was necessary to bring up the other three girls in other to illustrate my point for why Rin and Lilly I feel were the best written. I'd be happy to write about them both but there's really not much to say to drive my point forward beyond what I've already said, I just wanted to let the OP know there could be an identifiable reason as to why they're the most favored. (outside of this 'fandom' they usually are from what I've seen) I haven't made any other posts around here and I don't lurk much around forums (unfortunately I am prone to PTSD triggers and this seems like a place where a specific trigger could be set off easy) so I figured I'd drop an outsider's opinion here.

[Xeoniriel]

well yeah, it was a demo what did you expect? they can't go into deep detail till the finished product or else they'd spoil a lot of plot

[Acidhedz]

@Atat

As someone who suffers from crippling shyness a good deal of the time, to the point I am 29 and still a virgin, I find your attitude towards people like us detestable.

We try to reach out. We panic. We fear rejection.

I am a very real person. People like me feel life stronger than others. Everything is amplified. The rejection that others shrug off is like a crushing hammer to us.

Your idea of the White Knight is the thought of a fool who doesn't know people at all. We aren't looking for someone to save us, we are looking for someone who accepts us. If you think the lead going after Hanako is trying to save her, then that's your issue, and a stain on your character. Trying to reach out to someone, that takes real courage. You are more of a coward than me.

Like a person that says the USA is the best country in the world but has never ventured outside it. You have nothing to base your estimation on other than your own desire to protect yourself from anyone and anything not like you.

If the world had more people willing to take a chance and get to know others the world would be a far better place.

Maybe you need to stop being so critical of others and take a good hard look at your own failings.