Katawa Shoujo Forums

DuaneMoody wrote:

Deimos wrote:My problem lies in what Hisao has to become in order to date Shizune.

To be fair the same thing happens with Rin: Hisao clearly couldn't give a shit about art if he doesn't pursue her. Hanako and Lilly represent paths that so far don't require Hisao to show an interest in something he ordinarily wouldn't.

Well, and Emi's, sort of. I mean, he does care about his condition not controlling him, even if he wouldn't care about diet and exercise specifically otherwise.

It did make me kinda laugh that in the other paths (especially Kenji's) he has the fried food Emi bans him from having and is like "meh it's not that good"

SirMax wrote:

DuaneMoody wrote:

Deimos wrote:My problem lies in what Hisao has to become in order to date Shizune.

To be fair the same thing happens with Rin: Hisao clearly couldn't give a shit about art if he doesn't pursue her. Hanako and Lilly represent paths that so far don't require Hisao to show an interest in something he ordinarily wouldn't.

Well, and Emi's, sort of. I mean, he does care about his condition not controlling him, even if he wouldn't care about diet and exercise specifically otherwise.

Reply to Duane Moody:
I have been probably unclear in my statement - I do not have a problem with what is done but how it is done. In Rin's path it feels like joining the art club is really Hisao's decision and Rin does not force him to join her in anything - she does not even talk about it afterwards.
I felt that all other scenarios depict Hisao's adaptation to Yamaku through more subtle means.

Reply to SirMax:
Basically the same as above. I view Emi's path more as Hisao acting his age - I mean how unreasonable have we all been in our teenage years and how much did we not care about things that are now important to us?

Deimos wrote:I have been probably unclear in my statement - I do not have a problem with what is done but how it is done. In Rin's path it feels like joining the art club is really Hisao's decision and Rin does not force him to join her in anything - she does not even talk about it afterwards.

The devs have already gone on record as saying Hisao's the part of the game they're least proud of. I think this is at least part of what they're talking about. The path writers all focused on their five girls and passed the buck on fleshing out the character the player controls: perhaps a future project could have a dev whose sole job was keeping the player-character on track and less ephemeral.

For people still relatively new to developing something of this scope, chalk it up to first time error. Considering how many things they didn't fuck up, it's still pretty impressive.

Actually hisao's lack of character developement, doesn't really bother me. That's pretty much "the norm" for most visual novels. They try to reveal very little about the main character. Very few VN ever show what the main character looks like or sounds like, to further add to it. It's generally so that the one playing the game can impose their own thoughts/ideas/actions onto the main character and relate easily to them. So to me, it doesn't seem like a big deal that the main character has a different set of personalities/interests/hobbies depending on which route is pursued. Each route is kinda like seperate in it's own scheme of thing. while routes can reveal insight about other characters really it's like an "alternate universe" almost like "what if this happened instead of this" and since humans are both equally nature and nurture, the way things pan out durring hisao's stay at the school would affect his personality/interests anyways. so it seems reasonable enough to me. Also most VN have a single writer writing all paths, inconsistencies (at least a few minor ones here or there) are to be expected by collaborative works such as this.

I don't see why Hisao can't essentially be different people on each route in regards to character development. Can you really make the person who goes for Shizune the same person who goes for Lilly, much less the same person who goes for the other three girls? The paths are even being written by different writers; no reason they can't infuse some of their own flavor into Hisao's personality so long as it makes sense with the template they're laying down in Act 1 and it isn't so obvious.

Okay, I hope I will not derail this thread completely.

Anyone who is familiar with the genre of Visual Novels is aware that the main character's pesonality is more or less an empty box with a question mark on it so that anyone can fill with whatever chracteristics they might want to project onto this person. Or it is done just for better identification with said character.

Back to the topic of KS and especially Shizune's route.
Hisao is a different person in every different scenario and otherwise the game would be inconceiveable. I think most people are able to get that. However, Hisao should not become a stereotype (other than being the extremely attractive new kid in the school ). Or let me correct that: Hisao should not become a badly written stereotype.

Now I am not saying that Hisao is a really scrappy character in any way in KS but I want to express the personal impression of mine that Hisao in Shizune's route faintly impersonated such a stereotype.
Every girl, except Hanako, dominates Hisao through Act 1, Lilly and Shizune are the best examples. Lilly's domination is even more thorough than Shizune's but whereas Lilly's path changes Hisao into something she considers her equal Shizune's path turns Hisao (at first) into an underling who has to work hard to catch the (romantic) attention of his leader.

Now the underling part and moreso the willingness and thoughtlessness that Hisao (or the player in that case) has to display to choose this path is not my cup of tea.

Deimos wrote:Every girl, except Hanako, dominates Hisao through Act 1, Lilly and Shizune are the best examples. Lilly's domination is even more thorough than Shizune's but whereas Lilly's path changes Hisao into something she considers her equal Shizune's path turns Hisao (at first) into an underling who has to work hard to catch the (romantic) attention of his leader.

Now the underling part and moreso the willingness and thoughtlessness that Hisao (or the player in that case) has to display to choose this path is not my cup of tea.

I think you and I are seeing Shizune and Hisao's actions in her route differently. You apparently saw her attempts at getting Hisao to join the student council as just an attempt to gain an underling; I saw it as an effort to get a guy she finds cute to hand out with her. I also saw Hisao's willingness to hang out with Shizune as reciprocating the interest rather than merely bending to the will of the wind. Hisao may not like having to work on the student council project, but he does so because he knows it will be rewarding with the immediate and subsequent company of Shizune and Misha.

Think of it as being like the relationship between Haruhi and Kyon.

I see the relationship that way too.

While Shizune can be controlling Hisao was never really that under her control. If Hisao kept on saying no to joining the student counsel there is no way shizune could get him to work under her. I do really think that their is a mutal attraction between hisao and Shizune, she went to him on the first day of school because she thought he was cute and he liked her enough to keep on hanging around her (and consequentially get suckered into being in the student counsel.

However I do see shizune as controlling to some extent that she and misha have a way to get things to happen. If you really want shizune to go away you simply have to never give in to her. As soon as you open the door a crack she comes through. In that respect she's pretty easy to read since most likely when she approaches you she wants something. The key is to figure out what she wants and either let her have it or beat her at her own game.

Caesius wrote:

Deimos wrote:Every girl, except Hanako, dominates Hisao through Act 1, Lilly and Shizune are the best examples. Lilly's domination is even more thorough than Shizune's but whereas Lilly's path changes Hisao into something she considers her equal Shizune's path turns Hisao (at first) into an underling who has to work hard to catch the (romantic) attention of his leader.

Now the underling part and moreso the willingness and thoughtlessness that Hisao (or the player in that case) has to display to choose this path is not my cup of tea.

I think you and I are seeing Shizune and Hisao's actions in her route differently. You apparently saw her attempts at getting Hisao to join the student council as just an attempt to gain an underling; I saw it as an effort to get a guy she finds cute to hand out with her. I also saw Hisao's willingness to hang out with Shizune as reciprocating the interest rather than merely bending to the will of the wind. Hisao may not like having to work on the student council project, but he does so because he knows it will be rewarding with the immediate and subsequent company of Shizune and Misha.

I interpreted Shizune's route parallel to your thoughts as Shizune gauging Hisao's worth as a potential member of the student council and as a potential friend. As of Act 1 this evaluation process has not ended.
However Shizune was partial successful in making Hisao join the student council and making him spend time with her. If there would be no further progress in their relationship, Shizune would still have gained a lot - namely an addition to her circle of friends and a subordinate. Sorry if this seems schizophrenic but in business matters one has to differentiate between these to types of relationships.

I hope I will be understandable when I say that joining any club for the members and not joining the club for what it really has been founded for does seem shallow. And it reveals a not so small character flaw of Hisao to me.
I do not place the blame on Shizune - Hisao is somewhat unfulfilling for me in this scenario!

Caesius wrote:Think of it as being like the relationship between Haruhi and Kyon.

I will not comment on those two on the internet - I have only watched the anime and can not determine the full extent of their relationship in the light novels.

Deimos wrote:I hope I will be understandable when I say that joining any club for the members and not joining the club for what it really has been founded for does seem shallow. And it reveals a not so small character flaw of Hisao to me.
I do not place the blame on Shizune - Hisao is somewhat unfulfilling for me in this scenario!

Well, Hisao did feel somewhat compelled to join a club -- he probably just didn't care what the club did as long as he got involved in some way. And I don't think Student Council is such a bad club to join... not that I'd know.

I mean come on, he's pondering what club to join and the Student Council comes up and smacks him right in the face. And thus he exclaims, "Eureka!"

It's not like he didn't put up quite a bit of resistance either. Little does he know that that just makes him even more attractive.

Caesius wrote:Think of it as being like the relationship between Haruhi and Kyon.

I will not comment on those two on the internet - I have only watched the anime and can not determine the full extent of their relationship in the light novels.

I only watched the anime as well, but this is still only Act 1 and I think the connection is still there... yanno?

That was the most impressive and intelligent off-topic convo I've seen in a while, you two.

On the subject of A22's troll. It read like English translated into Japanese Translated into English. Wouldn't surprise me if this were the case.

As for Hisao's character development, I think A22 did the best work with him, bringing out his insecurities to a much greater extent than any other path and forcing him to examine them (barring Kenji's route, but he winds up as pavement pizza anyway).

He seems to be emoing on about how people don't like Shizune, but from what i've seen she's one of the more popular characters.

A22:

The beauty is that there is a girl for everyone.

FAQ: "There is no Misha path in the full game."

Hmmm..............

......................;_;

toast wrote:He seems to be emoing on about how people don't like Shizune, but from what i've seen she's one of the more popular characters.

I love Shizune, but I think that most people like Hanako and Lilly, with Rin in a respectable third. And while I like that conflict is a part of Shizune's character, (I mean really, none of the other girls engage in conflict willingly, it's a good part of Shizune's character.) I also regret it... because it turns the fans of the other girls against her. Especially with her verbal duel with Lilly, and because she is so aggressive, it's easy for people to be turned off by her, and writing her off as just a bitch. And in turn, they won't give her a chance after they're done with the other paths. Hell, most players weren't trying to go for Shizune in the first place A22's post made me sad, to have the path writer acknowledge that his character is unliked. And just like he said, Hanako as a moe blob is inherently designed to have the MAXIMUM amount of attractiveness, which is why she has so many fans. Seriously, she's got protection moe, shy girl moe, and as added bonuses she has her little tile game, giving her a ton of more charm, and she even plays chess. It never ceases to infuriate me at how effective that tile playing game is. And while Hanako has that, at the very least Shizune has the most satisfying ending out of all the girls.


And I wonder... if along Shizune's path, you could have a one night stand with Misha, even if it would lead to a bad end, would you do it?

A small off-topic...

You can get Shizune at the end without joining the student council lol