Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:03 pm
and that is exactly what we wanted.Teclo wrote: but at times there's really no distinction between who's saying what.
Katawa Shoujo Forums
(Where's the Walkthrough?)
https://ks.fhs.sh/
Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Page 20 of 67
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:47 pm
Yeah, it makes sense for Misha's interpretation to be confusing. No doubt a professional interpreter can keep things straight, and professionals don't usually join in the conversation, I think. But Misha's not a professional. She's a high school kid, and kind of a ditz too, and she's constantly involved in the conversation. I'm sure it would be pretty confusing in real life.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:58 pm
And it only gets better/worse when Shizune uses 'I' and 'Misha' in her sentences, leading to some confusing translations. But I find the confusion to be so fitting for the pair, it works.Tualha wrote:Yeah, it makes sense for Misha's interpretation to be confusing. No doubt a professional interpreter can keep things straight, and professionals don't usually join in the conversation, I think. But Misha's not a professional. She's a high school kid, and kind of a ditz too, and she's constantly involved in the conversation. I'm sure it would be pretty confusing in real life.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:07 pm
I'm happy with whatever the devs decide on, but just to maybe better explain myself: In real life you'd see Shizune signing something out while Misha watches her, then starts speaking - in fact, she'd probably say it while still watching Shizune sign and it'd come out kind of like she's reading out loud. In the game, you often just get Misha saying it out of the blue so it's sort of artificially unclear, even if it may sometimes be unclear in real life. As I said, I've got used to it now but it did really seem awkward at first.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:53 pm
I think you're misunderstanding Aura.
The reason that an effect was not used to convey exactly who is "saying" what is intentional. Even RAITA's concept for a deaf character says that ideally you would have to learn sign language to further a relationship with her. There is less incentive to do that if you can understand her 100% fine anyway. That's why Misha is a less than ideal translator.
Have you ever met someone who required the service of a sign language interpreter? They stand there stoically and never speak for themselves unless directly spoken to; their sole purpose is to convey what their charge is saying, they are basically a nonperson. That's boring, and in a VN format it would remove the entire point of Shizune being disabled. There's little point to having a game called "Disability Girls" if every girl is completely unaffected by her disability.
If you are unsure as to who's saying what, that is a good thing, it's intended to give you that impression. If you read the text in the textboxes instead of just looking at a color coded name you will also notice that Hisao notes frequently that it is pretty confusing. I don't want to sound like a jackass, but that is immersion. That said, you can tell who is saying what anyway by looking at context, it is not that hard to figure out.
It is correct that giving Shizune's lines a color-coded distinction would make things easier for some, but the majority seem to not require this being done for them and I personally would find it insulting to the readership at large if it were simplified to that extent just to lessen the burden on a few. Of course, the fact that the lack of such an effect is intentional notwithstanding.
The reason that an effect was not used to convey exactly who is "saying" what is intentional. Even RAITA's concept for a deaf character says that ideally you would have to learn sign language to further a relationship with her. There is less incentive to do that if you can understand her 100% fine anyway. That's why Misha is a less than ideal translator.
Have you ever met someone who required the service of a sign language interpreter? They stand there stoically and never speak for themselves unless directly spoken to; their sole purpose is to convey what their charge is saying, they are basically a nonperson. That's boring, and in a VN format it would remove the entire point of Shizune being disabled. There's little point to having a game called "Disability Girls" if every girl is completely unaffected by her disability.
If you are unsure as to who's saying what, that is a good thing, it's intended to give you that impression. If you read the text in the textboxes instead of just looking at a color coded name you will also notice that Hisao notes frequently that it is pretty confusing. I don't want to sound like a jackass, but that is immersion. That said, you can tell who is saying what anyway by looking at context, it is not that hard to figure out.
It is correct that giving Shizune's lines a color-coded distinction would make things easier for some, but the majority seem to not require this being done for them and I personally would find it insulting to the readership at large if it were simplified to that extent just to lessen the burden on a few. Of course, the fact that the lack of such an effect is intentional notwithstanding.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:59 pm
Fidelas wrote:And it only gets better/worse when Shizune uses 'I' and 'Misha' in her sentences, leading to some confusing translations. But I find the confusion to be so fitting for the pair, it works.
- 1242421809638.jpg (86.62 KiB) Viewed 5104 times
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:38 pm
I will start off by saying that most people probably will find this an absurd idea and way too awkward to pull off (but being stupid IS my strong point); but can't people hear the friction and contact of people fingers and hands while they sign to each other in quiet environments? I hesitate to suggest adding a very quiet audio of this sound to signal the start of Shizune signing and Misha beginning to translate because it might screw up the sound tracks which are also a nice part of KS. A "solution" that "fixes" one thing while "breaking" another is no "solution" in my view.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:43 pm
A couple of points.
#1 - Stop asking us to clarify Shizune/Misha. As Aura/A22 have said, you aren't supposed to be able to tell the difference. I thought the fact that us saying that repeatedly would have clued you off to the fact that it was imporatant to the rest of the game, but we don't want to spoil you.
tl;dr It is important that you, the reader, can't tell immediately who is speaking.
#2 - "Japanese enough". I blame fansubbers for this (and that includes myself from my previous life). When something is localised, there should be no remnant of the original language. Leaving honorifics in names and maintaining Japanese name order is quite dumb.
Similarly, gestures/actions/greetings should be made into equivalent expressions for the target audience.
In writing this, we have made a conscious decision to make this a more natural read for a Western Audience. I urge the Translators who are working on this game to reaslise the difference, and in instances like this they should change "Muto shakes Hisao's hand" to whatever the local gesture is.
As for Hisao acting like any particular nationality, I don't think I can pin it down. Most of the writers are non-American though, so I doubt that their combined influence would make an American character.
#1 - Stop asking us to clarify Shizune/Misha. As Aura/A22 have said, you aren't supposed to be able to tell the difference. I thought the fact that us saying that repeatedly would have clued you off to the fact that it was imporatant to the rest of the game, but we don't want to spoil you.
tl;dr It is important that you, the reader, can't tell immediately who is speaking.
#2 - "Japanese enough". I blame fansubbers for this (and that includes myself from my previous life). When something is localised, there should be no remnant of the original language. Leaving honorifics in names and maintaining Japanese name order is quite dumb.
Similarly, gestures/actions/greetings should be made into equivalent expressions for the target audience.
In writing this, we have made a conscious decision to make this a more natural read for a Western Audience. I urge the Translators who are working on this game to reaslise the difference, and in instances like this they should change "Muto shakes Hisao's hand" to whatever the local gesture is.
As for Hisao acting like any particular nationality, I don't think I can pin it down. Most of the writers are non-American though, so I doubt that their combined influence would make an American character.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:46 am
Do I sense misinterpreted confession, or Misha purposefully altering information?cpl_crud wrote:A couple of points.
#1 - Stop asking us to clarify Shizune/Misha. As Aura/A22 have said, you aren't supposed to be able to tell the difference. I thought the fact that us saying that repeatedly would have clued you off to the fact that it was imporatant to the rest of the game, but we don't want to spoil you.
tl;dr It is important that you, the reader, can't tell immediately who is speaking.
Anyway, I'm glad the devs are chiming in about the ambiguity. Once again (since it's been a couple of pages of tl;dr), I'd like to mention that there's almost always (maybe always? I'm giving myself a buffer, here) a "..." line by Shizune and anything Misha says afterwards is what she signed. I reiterate also everyone else's comments about how Misha's supposed to be an unreliable translator and that it works wonderfully into the group dynamic.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:50 am
Music : 72/10
I like how the music is tranquil like during rin's mural and such.
Characters : 9/10
Shizune/Misha's route was plain annoying.
Rin's route was fun and unique.
Hanako's route was cute, but thats just me. (Or is it?)
Actually I made this post not only for feedbacks, but for ideas on Act 2 onward.
1. Nameable save files.
Sometimes I need to save many files and when I log back on to the game, I lose track on which one I am supposed to use. Naming the files like "Rin Route" and so on will make sure I dont die in the hands of a manly picnic.
2. H-scenes toggle.
I have to admit I came here for the H, but after going through Act 1, It feels like a basic story without any H would be nice too.
3. Download 2 onwards.
Many people probably cleared act 1 so you can let us download some thing that skips 1 altogether, starting in act 2. (Using a password as proof wecleared 1 before giving us the link to 2 may work too.)
I like how the music is tranquil like during rin's mural and such.
Characters : 9/10
Shizune/Misha's route was plain annoying.
Rin's route was fun and unique.
Hanako's route was cute, but thats just me. (Or is it?)
Actually I made this post not only for feedbacks, but for ideas on Act 2 onward.
1. Nameable save files.
Sometimes I need to save many files and when I log back on to the game, I lose track on which one I am supposed to use. Naming the files like "Rin Route" and so on will make sure I dont die in the hands of a manly picnic.
2. H-scenes toggle.
I have to admit I came here for the H, but after going through Act 1, It feels like a basic story without any H would be nice too.
3. Download 2 onwards.
Many people probably cleared act 1 so you can let us download some thing that skips 1 altogether, starting in act 2. (Using a password as proof wecleared 1 before giving us the link to 2 may work too.)
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:00 am
Lurk moar, bub.Jinxy1205 wrote:Blah blah blah
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:49 am
I'm really sorry about taking this to annoyed subject here,cpl_crud wrote:A couple of points.
#1 - Stop asking us to clarify Shizune/Misha. As Aura/A22 have said, you aren't supposed to be able to tell the difference. I thought the fact that us saying that repeatedly would have clued you off to the fact that it was imporatant to the rest of the game, but we don't want to spoil you.
tl;dr It is important that you, the reader, can't tell immediately who is speaking.
and certainlly would not ask for the same kind of trouble any more.
Roger, we'll do the best that provide local audience to plunge into the game without culture difference; at least, so would my translate team do to reach with (traditional)chinese verson.cpl_crud wrote:#2 - "Japanese enough". I blame fansubbers for this (and that includes myself from my previous life). When something is localised, there should be no remnant of the original language. Leaving honorifics in names and maintaining Japanese name order is quite dumb.
Similarly, gestures/actions/greetings should be made into equivalent expressions for the target audience.
In writing this, we have made a conscious decision to make this a more natural read for a Western Audience. I urge the Translators who are working on this game to reaslise the difference, and in instances like this they should change "Muto shakes Hisao's hand" to whatever the local gesture is.
As for Hisao acting like any particular nationality, I don't think I can pin it down. Most of the writers are non-American though, so I doubt that their combined influence would make an American character.
They seems very actively to this localize thing.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:07 am
This will be in the full version, it was mentioned already a couple of times here.Jinxy1205 wrote:2. H-scenes toggle.
I have to admit I came here for the H, but after going through Act 1, It feels like a basic story without any H would be nice too.
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:21 am
Non cogito ergo lurk moar.Jinxy1205 wrote: 1. Nameable save files.
Sometimes I need to save many files and when I log back on to the game, I lose track on which one I am supposed to use. Naming the files like "Rin Route" and so on will make sure I dont die in the hands of a manly picnic.
2. H-scenes toggle.
I have to admit I came here for the H, but after going through Act 1, It feels like a basic story without any H would be nice too.
3. Download 2 onwards.
Many people probably cleared act 1 so you can let us download some thing that skips 1 altogether, starting in act 2. (Using a password as proof wecleared 1 before giving us the link to 2 may work too.)
Re: Katawa Shoujo Act 1 Preview feedback thread
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:10 pm
Wait, I understand that we're not going have Hisao saying things like "kawaii desu ne!! ^_____^" and stuff like that, but there are certain things that are different outside of grammar/language. As has been said, you would not shake hands with your teacher in Japan like that. To be honest, it would be a little odd in the UK to do that although it would hardly be frowned upon. I mean, you've given them all Japanese names, you've set it in Japan, but then you have them acting like Americans. I mean, the reason that westerners localised things to begin with is because Japanese people created something set in Japan. If you want to eliminate everything Japanese about it, why not just be a westerner and set it in the west? Not that I'm actually suggesting that, I'm just trying to make a point.
And as for the "American vs the west in general" thing, well for one thing it's the American spellings; that sort of sets the tone, but I appreciate that they're the main target audience and that's fair enough. I'd say it's all the American slang rather than UK/AU slang. I mean, to an American it might be hard to see because, well, this slang is totally natural to you, but imagine if Hisao spoke in a stereotypically British way, like "Strike a light, guvnah! I'm in a right old pickle and no mistake!" it would be like over-localisation... Atlus-style. Although I would say that it doesn't help that many Americans do actually speak like the stereotype suggests ("dude", "anyways", "and I was, like, so tired") whereas in other countries, the famous phrases/dialects are either never used ("pip pip, my good man!", "I say, what what!") or is limited to certain regions/backgrounds ("alright, mate!", "bloody hell!", "you're a wanker!", "bollocks!") so you won't find pretty much everyone accepting them as THE way to talk.
All that said, I know that this is essentially "for America" in the sense that the American players will outnumber all the other English-speaking players combined, but I'm just trying to express that this isn't as simple as it "being written in English" - there are lots of implications and it does lead to it feeling a little more like a school in, say, New England with Japanese disabled people in than it does feeling like a disabled school in Japan. I think the first time it hit me that it was Japan - apparently being desensitised to the Japanese names - was when Rin was eating from the bentou tray thing.
Anyway, this is merely my natural response to KS, and to what you've said in response to my response, if you follow. Just take it as such and don't see it as nagging or bitching, 'cause that's how it seems a lot of these comments are being taken.
And as for the "American vs the west in general" thing, well for one thing it's the American spellings; that sort of sets the tone, but I appreciate that they're the main target audience and that's fair enough. I'd say it's all the American slang rather than UK/AU slang. I mean, to an American it might be hard to see because, well, this slang is totally natural to you, but imagine if Hisao spoke in a stereotypically British way, like "Strike a light, guvnah! I'm in a right old pickle and no mistake!" it would be like over-localisation... Atlus-style. Although I would say that it doesn't help that many Americans do actually speak like the stereotype suggests ("dude", "anyways", "and I was, like, so tired") whereas in other countries, the famous phrases/dialects are either never used ("pip pip, my good man!", "I say, what what!") or is limited to certain regions/backgrounds ("alright, mate!", "bloody hell!", "you're a wanker!", "bollocks!") so you won't find pretty much everyone accepting them as THE way to talk.
All that said, I know that this is essentially "for America" in the sense that the American players will outnumber all the other English-speaking players combined, but I'm just trying to express that this isn't as simple as it "being written in English" - there are lots of implications and it does lead to it feeling a little more like a school in, say, New England with Japanese disabled people in than it does feeling like a disabled school in Japan. I think the first time it hit me that it was Japan - apparently being desensitised to the Japanese names - was when Rin was eating from the bentou tray thing.
Anyway, this is merely my natural response to KS, and to what you've said in response to my response, if you follow. Just take it as such and don't see it as nagging or bitching, 'cause that's how it seems a lot of these comments are being taken.