Katawa Shoujo Forums

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Oddball wrote:

Guest wrote:That's because she's an idealized Mary Sue waifu.

There. I said it.

You're not the first to say it and you're not the first to be wrong either.

To reiterate, wrong on every single possible level.

Welp, here we go again~

Megumeru wrote:Welp, here we go again~

Hardened veteran of MEGs' waifu wars on /vg/ reporting in for the Legion of Shizune!

Synthus wrote:Pfft, everyone knows Flames of War is obviously superior.

I'll give you Flames of War if we agree that she would never pick up or paint a Space Marine.

I got legitimately bored while playing through Shizune's route. Her characterization wasn't ABYSMAL, but it really didn't feel like she ever changed her ways and became a more empathetic individual, which seems to be what the game tried to convey at the end. Also, the sex scenes seemed kind of out of place, and didn't have the warmth and emotional depth that most other scenes in the game had. When I watched Hisao and Lilly have their first time together, I had a huge, childish grin plastered on my face, and I felt all warm and fuzzy inside (dunno if it was supposed to be arousing as well, since I'm a faggot). Shizune's first sex scene, on the other hand, just felt wrong (if he'd had a heart fluster, he'd have had no way of communicating his concern to her).

Pickman's Model wrote:I got legitimately bored while playing through Shizune's route. Her characterization wasn't ABYSMAL, but it really didn't feel like she ever changed her ways and became a more empathetic individual, which seems to be what the game tried to convey at the end. Also, the sex scenes seemed kind of out of place, and didn't have the warmth and emotional depth that most other scenes in the game had. When I watched Hisao and Lilly have their first time together, I had a huge, childish grin plastered on my face, and I felt all warm and fuzzy inside (dunno if it was supposed to be arousing as well, since I'm a faggot). Shizune's first sex scene, on the other hand, just felt wrong (if he'd had a heart fluster, he'd have had no way of communicating his concern to her).

Shizune wasn't meant to change ... that is problem most ppl have with her ( she should be nicer , less cocky and so on and so on ) she is wonderful that way ( no longing for love , no tears, no feels ) and there is nothing wrong with that ... she is just a normal , bitchy girl ... who is in your face if you mess up/ give up on your self ... she doesn't need a white knight , she doesn't need someone to mother , she isn't confusing and complex ... she is just shizune nothing more nothing less ... and again i don't see where normal is wrong

i think of shizune a loyal lifetime friend when the puppy love/lust is gone further in the relationship ... lilly would be gone when you don't need a second mother anymore ( my opinion only )

rydiafan wrote:Shizune wasn't meant to change ... that is problem most ppl have with her ( she should be nicer , less cocky and so on and so on ) she is wonderful that way ( no longing for love , no tears, no feels ) and there is nothing wrong with that ... she is just a normal , bitchy girl ... who is in your face if you mess up/ give up on your self ... she doesn't need a white knight , she doesn't need someone to mother , she isn't confusing and complex ... she is just shizune nothing more nothing less ... and again i don't see where normal is wrong

i think of shizune a loyal lifetime friend when the puppy love/lust is gone further in the relationship ... lilly would be gone when you don't need a second mother anymore ( my opinion only )

Yeah, she's definitely more of a "bro" than any of the other girls. My big issue with her is really the way she treats Misha. If she'd only have THAT TALK with her, everything would be alright, but Shizune seems incapable of discussing emotions, which I see as a possible hinderance when it comes to the development of her and Hisao's relationship. Feels like they're never gonna be more than friends who happen to fuck, which is probably alright for Shizune, but Hisao seems like the kinda guy who'd want more than that.

Shizune wasn't meant to change ... that is problem most ppl have with her ( she should be nicer , less cocky and so on and so on ) she is wonderful that way ( no longing for love , no tears, no feels ) and there is nothing wrong with that ... she is just a normal , bitchy girl ... who is in your face if you mess up/ give up on your self ... she doesn't need a white knight , she doesn't need someone to mother , she isn't confusing and complex ... she is just shizune nothing more nothing less ... and again i don't see where normal is wrong

The problem here is that Shizune herself said the way she was doing things was wrong, but she makes no real effort to try to change or become a better person.

Yeah, she's definitely more of a "bro" than any of the other girls. My big issue with her is really the way she treats Misha. If she'd only have THAT TALK with her, everything would be alright, but Shizune seems incapable of discussing emotions, which I see as a possible hinderance when it comes to the development of her and Hisao's relationship. Feels like they're never gonna be more than friends who happen to fuck, which is probably alright for Shizune, but Hisao seems like the kinda guy who'd want more than that.

im not sure if i agree with you ... Someone said on here ( Sorry i forgot who ) that hisao changes depending on which girl he is with ... that is true with shizune ... Hisao liked the student counsel , the hard work and the challenge shizune brought ... he was the one who said yes to joining

I do agree with you that first sex scene was weird to say the least and she should have giving Misha some time after the whole " comfort Misha " thing but to be fair look at who her father is lol

oh and one other thing Hisao/Misha learned to sign to be with Shizune ( either as a friend or lover ) ... how many other students put the effort like that to try to build a friendly relationship with Shizune ... remember everything is relayed through Misha and later on Hisao

I see ( no pun intended ) Lilly as more as the underhanded one not telling Hisao about Scotland , mothering Hanako to the point of smothering , showing up hisao in the antique shop ( 25,000 yen to 5,500 yen) ( remember still my opinion only )

rydiafan wrote: I see ( no pun intended ) Lilly as more as the underhanded one not telling Hisao about Scotland , mothering Hanako to the point of smothering , showing up hisao in the antique shop ( 25,000 yen to 5,500 yen) ( remember still my opinion only )

Maybe you have a point on the Scotland thing. Maybe, but Hisao was the one that picked out the present Lilly bought and smothering or not, Lilly was the ONLY person that treated Hanako kindly and gently enough for Hanako to be able to open up to.

If you think that Lilly being kind to Hanako was underhanded, then we obviously aren't using the same definition of the word.

Oddball wrote:

The problem here is that Shizune herself said the way she was doing things was wrong, but she makes no real effort to try to change or become a better person.

The story ended ... real change takes time

using myself from when i was 18 it took me 7 years to break my shyness ( People thought i was anti social ) even now at 32 that shyness still shows up from time to time ( hard habit to break ) and it wasn't easy to change myself to a more open and social person

Shizune needs time to be a little more different ( but still won't be to the point that lilly fans want )

I always found it interesting the way that my views of Shizune and Lilly essentially switched as I played through their routes. When I first saw Shizune I immediately assumed that she had some sort of "dark secret" or hidden agendas. However, once you play through her route you realize that she is extremely straightforward with Hisao about nearly everything, almost to a fault.
Lilly is the opposite. She seems like, as many people are quick to call her, an idealized Mary Sue at first glance. Instead she turns out to have serious problems with opening up to other people, and uses her motherly nature as a facade to hide her true feelings from mere acquaintances. Now, obviously it's purely up to personal preference which of the two one prefers, but I myself find the dichotomy of Lilly's personality extremely interesting. What's more, despite her faults (hiding the Scotland summons being the obvious one), she still typically comes off as the more sympathetic of the two among fans.
It really is fascinating, don't you think?

Breaker deGodot wrote:I always found it interesting the way that my views of Shizune and Lilly essentially switched as I played through their routes. When I first saw Shizune I immediately assumed that she had some sort of "dark secret" or hidden agendas. However, once you play through her route you realize that she is extremely straightforward with Hisao about nearly everything, almost to a fault.
Lilly is the opposite. She seems like, as many people are quick to call her, an idealized Mary Sue at first glance. Instead she turns out to have serious problems with opening up to other people, and uses her motherly nature as a facade to hide her true feelings from mere acquaintances. Now, obviously it's purely up to personal preference which of the two one prefers, but I myself find the dichotomy of Lilly's personality extremely interesting. What's more, despite her faults (hiding the Scotland summons being the obvious one), she still typically comes off as the more sympathetic of the two among fans.
It really is fascinating, don't you think?

I think that's one of the high points of the game.

None of the characters are really what you think they are at first.

Woah, woah are we REALLY doing this again?

okay, let me get my gears straight...
wall incoming

First off, I'll start with saying that Shizune's route is a "reversed VN" where--unlike the standard norm in which the MC made the choices--it's Shizune who pulled all the choices and you (Hisao) who follow suit. It's like you're in the shoes of the heroines, so to say.

Now to follow up. The girls gave 'five' main themes/questions throughout their route and they are presented in the main page:
Emi - "Can you stand up for yourself"
Rin - "Can you seize the day?"
Hanako - "Can you face your fears?'
Lilly - "Can you see what I see?"
Shizune - "Can you tell me what you think?"

"Can you tell me what you think?" is the line from Shizune's route. Sounds familiar? That 'line' can work both ways on her trying to read Hisao, or YOU (Hisao) reading Shizune; if you're unable to accomplish the former, then you have pretty much missed the beef on her route. I've emphasized it over and over again in this thread that 'Shizune lives in her own world'. What do you mean by that?

Here's an easier example: try watching a movie (maybe something you haven't watch yet) without sound AND subtitles and see if you can actually relate to the characters presented. With that said, this is Shizune's world. If you say that she's inconsiderate, selfish, etc., do you think she wants to be so? She's unable to relate to people not because she doesn't want to, but because she can't. I've explained this over and over, but we are living in a world where communication is a vital tool for us to connect with people regardless of language barrier (it can be overcome with the international language of English). Sign language is another different 'language' altogether, and not being able to communicate or share the world you live in with another human being is frustrating as it is--and you alienized her further for this?

Now, on to the sex scene. Awkward? I find Lilly's scene more awkward--surprised? Bet so.
Here's what happen in Lilly's scene--based on memory.
Lilly confessed to Hisao in the wheat field--->they are officially a couple--->they went back to the summer house--->they had sex.
...
...what?
no, really, what?

That's like first date with sex--and they have just officially became a couple a few hours ago. Not to mention, it was Lilly who made the first move which irked me even further. Rather than feeling all warm and fuzzy, my first reaction was "what?"
Then the next morning, she done it again--IN THE BATHROOM. You have to admit you know it's going to lead to 'there' one way or another--if you read enough 'H' in your life, you're certain that a boy and a girl going to the bathroom together would lead to that. I almost believed that she's Emi-incarnate and was expecting an anal scene somewhere along the line on first-read; and I tell you, their 'last' scene was almost as hilarious as Emi's tool shed.

Now before I continue on Shizune, I advised you to read 'Closer' in Shizune's arc and give it a lot more attention. She didn't come into Hisao's room and 'raped' him; there's a series and a chain of events that led her to act accordingly towards the situation--add the fact that Hisao failed to translate a line she said, and you know she said something else that led to that. To add, him and Shizune had been going out for...months? Probably half a school year. The scene before their first 'H' scene too; if you are a healthy young male, and you accidentally pushed a girl to the floor--with you on top--you're going to feel *slightly* aroused and immediately apologize after that, correct?

Now imagine your girlfriend is deaf-mute, you just learn sign language about a few months ago for her, and you're too flustered to sign 'I'm sorry' to her--not to mention doing so would make the awkward situation a lot more awkward. What I like about Shizune's first 'H' scene is that slow build-up that leads to the event and their silent consent between one another--what Shizune's route often emphasize is the use of action or body language as means of communicating and conveying (this includes facial expressions and what-not). Lilly's?

A few hours they're a couple, the next minute she jumped and deflowered Hisao. No build-up there aside from the regular 'I love you' yada2 that--when you take the neutral ending--is pretty much empty words considering how it ended. She wasn't feeling that dejected, Hisao wasn't going to chase after her, and everything returned to normal as the taxi drive away. Shizune's bad ending was different entirely. Hisao left depressed, Shizune shut herself, and Misha was nowhere to be seen.


Next, Shizune doesn't pull the effort to try to change or become a better person? You serious? Have you ever tell someone directly in their face and say 'hey, you're a dick. Why don't you change into a better person?' I have, and it gave me quite a beating on my ass (and to that person's ass too. Funny enough, we became friends after exchanging blows). She mentioned it over and over again in her route how she feels wrong about how she does thing, but does Hisao ever point it directly to her what she did wrong? I don't think so. So how does she try to correct herself? By doing what she think is right and what she knows to do--that's an effort of self improvement, albeit doing it 'blindly'.

Lilly as being more sympathetic, that I can agree in a certain point of view. But how I see it and why she is more sympathetic is because her relationship with the tragic girl in the mix of heroines--Hanako. Yeah, she is the only person that treated Hanako kindly and gently enough for her to be able to open up--or is it? What about Hisao? Pulling him out of the equation?
It is also worth noting in Hanako's bad ending that she doesn't want that babying from Lilly and honestly wanted to scream right at her face to tell her to stop all that--the only thing that stops her from doing so is her fear of losing Lilly as a friend, just like how she acted during her H-scene in fear of losing Hisao.

Really, anymore of this kind of discussion would make me depreciate Lilly even more than what she already is in my list. Can't we all just get a common ground and agree that they are basically two-sides of the same coin?
so here's a little gift:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 68/cbb.jpg
yes, I'm evil for posting this. sue me

so can we now get a common ground...?

This entire thread is one like big dysfunctional family, agreeing to disagree, and then disagreeing about that too.

themocaw wrote:

Synthus wrote:Pfft, everyone knows Flames of War is obviously superior.

I'll give you Flames of War if we agree that she would never pick up or paint a Space Marine.

Of course not. She'd go for Dark Eldar!

Still, I like to think that she'd be attracted to the SPESS MEHREENS based on the background material before being repulsed by the legions of thirteen year old twats.

~

To continue the War of Text, the portrayal of the two girls is fundamentally different.

Lilly's sympathetic until you delve a bit deeper, at which point you start thinking that she can be a bit of a bitch.

Shizune comes across as a bit of a bitch until you dig deeper, at which point she becomes a sympathetic character.

Unfortunately, few people bother enough with textual analysis or critical reading in a bloody VN, especially after they've formed that all-important first impression.

I have to admit that Shizune's was my favourite at first because of how much of a bro she was and her physical appearance, though I was rather less impressed by what I perceived as the lack of quality in the writing. I then went onto the forums and the KS reddit, did a bit of reading, and found out that a whole lot of stuff had flown clear over my head. I sat down for a re-read and started appreciating her path and her actions that much more.

To this day I can't decide if A22's a genius writer or a lucky cock. No other girl's route rewards the reader quite as much as Shizune's ('cept maybe Rin's). Lilly, Hanako and Rin are completely undemanding and serve you feels on a plate, Shizune makes you go Courage Wolf in order to earn your feels, and Rin's a grade-AAA space cadet that really requires someone with a similar history or personality to understand.