Katawa Shoujo Forums

I really didn't want this endless circular fight to restart, but whatever

nemz wrote:I don't know if it's fair to say Brogurt got the characters wrong... after all we've never seen them in a cannon situation like this before, so how would we know? In retrospect I do find this oddly plausible behavior for both of them: Hanako has shown a tendency to assume the worst of others, to blame things on them that are at least partly her fault, and I can easily see her efforts at self-improvement being accompanied by a mix of social naivety and recklessness masquerading as courage. Hisao at various times does come across as a self-sacrificing doormat, an unperceptive dunce, and more concerned with preserving the 'rightness' of a situation than understanding the motivations of all involved.

I still think he got 'em wrong. I can totally see Hanako sabotaging her relationship with Hisao, but not for the reasons given. She might have enough self-hatred going on that she thinks a breakup's inevitable, for instance, and screws some other guy to force the issue so she doesn't have to dread it forever. She might even think she deserves to be with someone who doesn't respect her, and while that's less likely after the events of the game it could conceivably dovetail with the above bit depending on how messed up she is at the time. What she wouldn't do, though, is ditch Hisao because he's a lousy lay, or because she thinks she deserves better. What she got in the game was pretty damn good, and she's just not that egocentric that she'd think "hey, some guy was nice to me, and that means I can totally upgrade." Nothing in the game, even in her darker moments, paints her as a person who's that shallow.

As for Hisao, yeah, he's a doormat. No question of that, really. But being a doormat doesn't mean he'd conclude that Hanako's extended infidelity on account of his having a defective heart was somehow his fault. I mean, to begin with she told him exactly what the reason was, so concluding that this was somehow a moral failing on his part doesn't make sense even within the context of the story. But even beyond that he's not such a beta that he'd think her cheating for such venal reasons was a reflection of his own failings. He's Hisao Nakai, not Shinji Ikari. Doormat, yes. Self-hating woobie, no.

And yes, Brogurt's overly defensive replies are probably the only thing keeping this fire burning.

Pretty much. Kicking him's getting old, though, so I'd just as soon get back to cool stories about crippled chicks.

Bagheera wrote:What she wouldn't do, though, is ditch Hisao because he's a lousy lay, or because she thinks she deserves better.

You say this as if it doesn't happen all the time. She'd feel guilty about it, but in the end if he doesn't really satisfy her needs then it isn't going to work out (though it's entirely possible that the real problem there is that she isn't confident enough to point out what is and isn't working).

We don't know how shallow Hanako might or might not be because to be blunt she really doesn't do much of anything.

Doormat, yes. Self-hating woobie, no.

Ordinarilly no, but when he's in a depressed mood as low as the beginning of the game if not lower? I'd argue that his self-depricating manner is at it's zenith in Hanako's route, so while Shizune's Hisao would have none of this bullshit Hanako's Hisao is still a possibility.

nemz wrote:

Bagheera wrote:What she wouldn't do, though, is ditch Hisao because he's a lousy lay, or because she thinks she deserves better.

You say this as if it doesn't happen all the time. She'd feel guilty about it, but in the end if he doesn't really satisfy her needs then it isn't going to work out (though it's entirely possible that the real problem there is that she isn't confident enough to point out what is and isn't working).

We don't know how shallow Hanako might or might not be because to be blunt she really doesn't do much of anything.

I can't agree, mostly because she really seems to value her friendships. Can you point to anything in her route that indicates she might be shallow enough to make this scenario work? I can't really see it.

Doormat, yes. Self-hating woobie, no.

Ordinarilly no, but when he's in a depressed mood as low as the beginning of the game if not lower? I'd argue that his self-depricating manner is at it's zenith in Hanako's route, so while Shizune's Hisao would have none of this bullshit Hanako's Hisao is still a possibility.

Can't see it here, either. Even at his worst he's never displayed much in the way of self-hatred. I brought up Shinji for a reason -- Hisao's bad self-image never reaches pathological levels, and that's where it'd have to be to make this story work.

Thinking about it, either of these alone might work. People do change, after all. It's taking both extremes together that's the really tough sell, particularly with no significant explanation showing how they got to this point.

Brogurt wrote:Don't mean to incite another shitstorm, but yeah, a lot of people seem to forget that Hanako is a very troubled individual. There were some... odd things in store for her path in earlier drafts of KS, including but not limited to being institutionalized (and the kinda-rape scene that followed, but I don't want to shift the focus to that topic) and going full yandere with a shard of glass. The latter was probably more like a joke, but crud himself said that the former was quite resilient to being axed.

can I get some summary on all the stuff that was cut? seems hanako's writer had a lot of 'whoa' type things trimmed

If I were to guess, the heavy stuff that got trimmed probably started to drag the story toward a dead end.

Especially something like an institutionalization. That's not a word you use for a brief stay at a psyche ward. I should know, my brother has been institutionalized twice in his lifetime and lost about 8 months total between them. A realistic institutionalization would drag the story through months of hospital visits with catatonia, aimless meandering, muttering and paranoid outbursts punctuated by ever lengthening lists of medications to try and fight the overwhelming amount of unstable behavior. It's not even a little bit like fun. It sucks. It hurts in ways you couldn't fathom; and that's just what I went through as his brother.

It would probably make an excellent bit of drama if someone wanted to pick up that idea and run with it. Don't look at me, though. I don't ever want to relive 6 months of weekly visits seeing my brother reduced to a drooling, muttering fool. Even writing this brief description is making me misty-eyed.

Short of being a completely separate story from the main KS story arc, Hanako being institutionalized would never have worked.

Helbereth wrote:A realistic institutionalization would drag the story

Shortly after it happened, Hisao evidently died. Crud never actually gave the reasons behind it; he just said "complications".

With that out of the way, I'd prefer if any ongoing discussion could be about a certain fanfic rather than stuff that was cut from the final story. I was just referencing it for a specific point, and it's not what the focus of this thread should be.

Bagheera wrote:I can't agree, mostly because she really seems to value her friendships. Can you point to anything in her route that indicates she might be shallow enough to make this scenario work? I can't really see it.

Does she, or is it a constant balancing act between needing Lilly, Akira and Hisao's help but resenting them at the same time? She certainly seems willing to throw it all away in a moments notice when really pushed, though the circumstances being what they are I admit that's not the best evidence. I just don't find it a particularly hard stretch to take her seething misanthropic side and use that as fuel for a rationalization after-the-fact for just about anything she might end up doing if she feels emotionally cornered.

Like I said though, I don't feel like there's enough going on with her in the game to really say for sure where that balance falls. How can we really judge anything she does when she's burying her true motives most of the time and avoiding contact with anyone when she's vulnerable enough for hard truths to potentially slip out?

Can't see it here, either. Even at his worst he's never displayed much in the way of self-hatred. I brought up Shinji for a reason -- Hisao's bad self-image never reaches pathological levels, and that's where it'd have to be to make this story work.

How can it not though when she's specifically trying to lay the blame on his own inadequacies? Hisao does have a history of seeing himself as broken and useless and in her route only really changes that because of her influence. When the sole cause of his new sense of self worth lays a bomb like this on him like this it's not unreasonable for him to fall back on old patters and then some... even though he's totally being an idiot for doing so.

Let me put it another way; despite her hatred of white knighting, just about everything Hanako says or does naturally leads people to see her as needing such treatment. I'd argue that just about the only way a person would not fall into this trap (well, at least without a hell of a lot more worldly experience than Hisao has at this point) is if they feel themselves even lower then she presents herself to be, and thus end up putting her on a pedestal like a saint or bodhisattva for having survived so much hardship mostly intact. Having reached the end of her good end route just to get here Hisao can be considered to have fallen for the secondary trap, and thus we can say that yes he probably is still that close to the edge.

nemz wrote:Does she, or is it a constant balancing act between needing Lilly, Akira and Hisao's help but resenting them at the same time? She certainly seems willing to throw it all away in a moments notice when really pushed, though the circumstances being what they are I admit that's not the best evidence. I just don't find it a particularly hard stretch to take her seething misanthropic side and use that as fuel for a rationalization after-the-fact for just about anything she might end up doing if she feels emotionally cornered.

How is she emotionally cornered in Mendacium? And how do you go from the above to ditching Hisao for a better lay?

Bagheera wrote:How is she emotionally cornered in Mendacium? And how do you go from the above to ditching Hisao for a better lay?

She's emotionally cornered because she realizes that he isn't able to fufill her needs any more, yet she isn't able to be honest enough with him to either help him improve or to break it off amicably, instead burying it all to fester behind walls of lies and escapism. This makes her feel weak but she blames this on his weakness instead of owning her share of the issue, which in turn makes her both desperate and resentful enough to accept her newfound upgrade despite glaring flaws.

>A better lay/a lousy lay
Alright, I'm seeing this phrase come up a lot, and I'd like to make something clear. It was just an offshoot of the association between Hisao's heart condition and him being "less valuable". The master of romance jumped to the conclusion that sex was the only reason this happened, but the real reason it happened is because it was the only physical and tangible way that Hanako could receive that benefit of knowing that she's not with someone with a heart condition. It is supposed to sound stupid, because it was a stupid decision.

It was not a completely conscious one either. And not just because of the alcohol that was only mentioned once; Hanako is kind of inexperienced with social situations in general. She is meant to have a naivete about her, which was shown to be exploited partially by the gifts that she received. Also, as stated explicitly in Fallout, she was not thinking about how it would affect Hisao, because she was more interested in living her life for herself since she now had the opportunity to do so after many years of torment.

Granted, most of this seems to be irrelevant to what the current conversation is going on about, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I don't actually see what all the argument is about.

People are flawed, weak, petty, cruel beings with selfish desires that only some of them realize they're trying to fulfill. This story merely illustrates how Hanako - and Hisao, for that matter - are not above those baser instincts. Granted, it was probably possible to avoid this whole awful situation through communication, but, when we look inside ourselves and see a selfish person there, we don't always have the courage to put it on display. It was probably possible for Hisao to see the issue as well, and intercept it; but he was too busy denying the possibility of Hanako's betrayal to notice.

It would be a comedy of errors if the end result were even close to being funny.

It's less "No one would ever do this" and more "This doesn't really follow from Hanako's good end."

Bagheera wrote:It's less "No one would ever do this" and more "This doesn't really follow from Hanako's good end."

It's goes quite a bit out of it's way to go somewhere different, I'll grant you that. But then again every relationship "bad end" could have become a "good end" if the narration had just stopped at a more convenient time.

It's not an argument, it's just a discussion.

Alright, I'm seeing this phrase come up a lot, and I'd like to make something clear. It was just an offshoot of the association between Hisao's heart condition and him being "less valuable". The master of romance jumped to the conclusion that sex was the only reason this happened, but the real reason it happened is because it was the only physical and tangible way that Hanako could receive that benefit of knowing that she's not with someone with a heart condition. It is supposed to sound stupid, because it was a stupid decision.

So it's more an issue of if she's only worthy of interacting with people who are also 'broken' in some way? Fair enough, but because of the nature of the situation it's the sex that of course leaps to the forefront of the pile of related issues. That dissatisfaction is at least partly why she strayed in the first place, and even if it wasn't consciously a problem before she's now going to always know that there's better sex out there.

Bagheera wrote:It's less "No one would ever do this" and more "This doesn't really follow from Hanako's good end."

It's not "no one" would ever do this. It has nothing to do with straying from the good end.

It's that I just can't picture Hanako and Hisao acting this way based on how they acted and what they said in the course of the game. It feels like two entirely different characters in this story.

That, and the ending (as originally written) felt horribly out of place given the set up. he rewrite helped a bit, but it still doesn't quite feel right.

And really, I think we've all pretty much said everything we had to say about this story already.