Katawa Shoujo Forums

Zig_Zac wrote:Isn't to truly love someone, to give yourself over to them? I don't think Shizune is the type of girl to give herself to anyone...

Eh... there's a point that giving "yourself" goes too far. Remember Hanako's route?

Anyways, there was an instance that I felt as if she gave herself to him. That is when she lets him on top in the second H scene. It's definitely nuanced, but it's there.

encrypted12345 wrote:

Zig_Zac wrote:Isn't to truly love someone, to give yourself over to them? I don't think Shizune is the type of girl to give herself to anyone...

Eh... there's a point that giving "yourself" goes too far. Remember Hanako's route?

Anyways, there was an instance that I felt as if she gave herself to him. That is when she lets him on top in the second H scene. It's definitely nuanced, but it's there.

True, but she didn't seem to enjoy it as much I think... she seems more the take charge type, and Hiaso isn't very manly... like when he was with Lilly... he didn't seem to be able to initiate things...

Zig_Zac wrote:True, but she didn't seem to enjoy it as much I think... she seems more the take charge type, and Hiaso isn't very manly... like when he was with Lilly... he didn't seem to be able to initiate things...

Yep, Shizune's the take charge type and that probably won't ever change. At least that scene showed that she was willing to make concessions. Also, Hisao can't really take charge since he has to be extra careful his heart won't kill the moment.

All in all, Shizune's relationship with Hisao is definitely love. Shizune just expresses it differently than the other girls due to her unwillingness to talk.

encrypted12345 wrote:

Zig_Zac wrote:True, but she didn't seem to enjoy it as much I think... she seems more the take charge type, and Hiaso isn't very manly... like when he was with Lilly... he didn't seem to be able to initiate things...

Yep, Shizune's the take charge type and that probably won't ever change. At least that scene showed that she was willing to make concessions. Also, Hisao can't really take charge since he has to be extra careful his heart won't kill the moment.

All in all, Shizune's relationship with Hisao is definitely love. Shizune just expresses it differently than the other girls due to her unwillingness to talk.

Unwillingness and inability I guess..

GamerJM wrote:

yipyapper wrote:

GamerJM wrote:I enjoyed Shizune's route, but then again, I loved every route. It did definitely drag on too long, but I felt like the relationship between her and Hisao was realistic enough. The supporting cast in the route was pretty fantastic, if that means anything.

It felt mostly realistic, that is until they seemed to be going slow then they suddenly have sex. Well, I guess that's how most things work out in real life, but then they go slow again afterwards.

This is the complaint I hear a lot, but for some reason I was under the impression that there was some more romance going on that just wasn't being shown in-game.

The first sex doesn't really count as it is not really a romantic thing (see posts from the last two days). I don't think there is enough information to exactly timeline the whole thing, but based on what happens I estimate that everything starting at the tanabata festival through to Misha showing sign of restoring a closer relationship with Shizune is weeks. Maybe a month and a half or so. Since tanabata was at the start of summer break, which I'm told (in the Ask thread) is in September, there should be about a five month gap between those events and graduation. Since "Succession" is likely not months before that, they had more time than any of the other paths were even long to grow their relationship.

encrypted12345 wrote:

Zig_Zac wrote:True, but she didn't seem to enjoy it as much I think... she seems more the take charge type, and Hiaso isn't very manly... like when he was with Lilly... he didn't seem to be able to initiate things...

Yep, Shizune's the take charge type and that probably won't ever change. At least that scene showed that she was willing to make concessions. Also, Hisao can't really take charge since he has to be extra careful his heart won't kill the moment.

All in all, Shizune's relationship with Hisao is definitely love. Shizune just expresses it differently than the other girls due to her unwillingness to talk.

Indeed.

To be in love with someone does not necessarily have to manifest itself as "giving yourself over to them". In fact, to try and pin Love to a definition of any sort is an exercise in futility.

We know from Hisao's introspection that what he feels for Shizune is love. And in the end, the whole point of Shizune's character arc is that she can learn to effectively communicate through both acts of physical intimacy (the 2nd H-scene) and with words (her monologue that follows) her own love for Hisao. She doesn't need to fulfill any particular act of subservience to express this, because she's matured as a character in ways that allow her to do it otherwise.

Pl4t0 wrote:

encrypted12345 wrote:

Zig_Zac wrote:True, but she didn't seem to enjoy it as much I think... she seems more the take charge type, and Hiaso isn't very manly... like when he was with Lilly... he didn't seem to be able to initiate things...

Yep, Shizune's the take charge type and that probably won't ever change. At least that scene showed that she was willing to make concessions. Also, Hisao can't really take charge since he has to be extra careful his heart won't kill the moment.

All in all, Shizune's relationship with Hisao is definitely love. Shizune just expresses it differently than the other girls due to her unwillingness to talk.

Indeed.

To be in love with someone does not necessarily have to manifest itself as "giving yourself over to them". In fact, to try and pin Love to a definition of any sort is an exercise in futility.

We know from Hisao's introspection that what he feels for Shizune is love. And in the end, the whole point of Shizune's character arc is that she can learn to effectively communicate through both acts of physical intimacy (the 2nd H-scene) and with words (her monologue that follows) her own love for Hisao. She doesn't need to fulfill any particular act of subservience to express this, because she's matured as a character in ways that allow her to do it otherwise.

just off-topic here, but what about the other characters? Lilly doesn't break what you're saying, but Hanako on the other hand... She thought of giving herself to Hisao as a way to make him stay. They both felt bad about doing such a thing though. What I think is that both the girl and the boy give each other to themselves, if that sentence makes any sense.

hickwarrior wrote:
just off-topic here, but what about the other characters? Lilly doesn't break what you're saying, but Hanako on the other hand... She thought of giving herself to Hisao as a way to make him stay. They both felt bad about doing such a thing though. What I think is that both the girl and the boy give each other to themselves, if that sentence makes any sense.

True.. I think they should both give themselves to each other... its got to be a 2 way street... which is why I liked Lilly's path, since eventually Hiaso realized he was just taking taking taking from Lilly, and its time for him to be there for her and give some back...

Zig_Zac wrote:

hickwarrior wrote:
just off-topic here, but what about the other characters? Lilly doesn't break what you're saying, but Hanako on the other hand... She thought of giving herself to Hisao as a way to make him stay. They both felt bad about doing such a thing though. What I think is that both the girl and the boy give each other to themselves, if that sentence makes any sense.

True.. I think they should both give themselves to each other... its got to be a 2 way street... which is why I liked Lilly's path, since eventually Hiaso realized he was just taking taking taking from Lilly, and its time for him to be there for her and give some back...

Heh, it was stupid of me to say "wtf how?" when Hisao said he wasn't there for Lilly. These things just slip past me that I must read them over again

To the topic: I still think Shizune is somewhat robotic with how she goes about her life. She still treated the second H-scene as "proper motions" (her words!) to end her student council duties with a celebration. Something needed to be done rather than what she wanted out of her heart.

As I've said, the only recognizable change I've seen in her was that she wants to see Hisao and Misha again soon after they split from Yamaku. Before, Hisao said (technically what the writer says then) that Shizune is like an artist throwing away her completed art, that she treats her life as a series of events that can be separated and put away.

Doesn't that sound just so depressing? I seriously thought she didn't recognize what love is throughout the entire story. Meh. At least she wants to see her friends again, implying she wont end this part of her life.

Titus wrote:I seriously thought she didn't recognize what love is throughout the entire story. Meh. At least she wants to see her friends again, implying she wont end this part of her life.

I think she gets the basics, but that some of the subtlety is lost on her. This is par for the course growing up deaf. Their emotional development is quite a bit different.

Titus wrote:To the topic: I still think Shizune is somewhat robotic with how she goes about her life. She still treated the second H-scene as "proper motions" (her words!) to end her student council duties with a celebration. Something needed to be done rather than what she wanted out of her heart.

As I've said, the only recognizable change I've seen in her was that she wants to see Hisao and Misha again soon after they split from Yamaku. Before, Hisao said (technically what the writer says then) that Shizune is like an artist throwing away her completed art, that she treats her life as a series of events that can be separated and put away.

Doesn't that sound just so depressing? I seriously thought she didn't recognize what love is throughout the entire story. Meh. At least she wants to see her friends again, implying she wont end this part of her life.

Some couples just aren't overtly lovey-dovey like old married couples (which Misha does mention what they are like early on). From the outside, it seems that they are only being friends, but they know and trust that they love each other very deeply. They tease and compete relentlessly as a form of flirting. I've noticed that since the first act that that's just the way Shizune is. Some of the other nuances of the route flew over my head in the first playthrough like how deep the love was, but I never thought that Shizune and Hisao were merely sex friends.

I'm honestly not completely sure a romance story with a nuanced romance is ingenious or insane.

Pl4t0 wrote:We know from Hisao's introspection that what he feels for Shizune is love. And in the end, the whole point of Shizune's character arc is that she can learn to effectively communicate through both acts of physical intimacy (the 2nd H-scene) and with words (her monologue that follows) her own love for Hisao. She doesn't need to fulfill any particular act of subservience to express this, because she's matured as a character in ways that allow her to do it otherwise.

Communication is actually a double topic here. First of all communication problems are not really limited to the impaired. Those problems are for everybody, especially between men and women. It takes any two people a while to used enough to each other to communicate (relatively) effectively. Shizune would have even more of a problem due to limited experience.

The problem more specific to sign is that it's normally much more limited in both vocabulary and expressiveness. However, the devs took a rather big artistic licence on this one. There was quite a bit of dialogue that I doubt that it's possible to be that specific in sign (apart from spelling things out). While this makes for a much more pleasant read, it's unfortunate that it sweeps part of the communication problems under the rug.

Titus wrote:Before, Hisao said (technically what the writer says then) that Shizune is like an artist throwing away her completed art, that she treats her life as a series of events that can be separated and put away.

Not everything Hisao said was exactly true. Some of it even showed a stunning lack of insight. Which was obviously written like that on purpose since you wouldn't expect an 18-year-old to really know everything about everything. They just think they do.

Did anyone here think it was a little dull how Hiaso asked Shizune out, and her response?

Zig_Zac wrote:Did anyone here think it was a little dull how Hiaso asked Shizune out, and her response?

I thought it was really sweet.

I did think it was really dull how there was no follow up to it.

themocaw wrote:

Zig_Zac wrote:Did anyone here think it was a little dull how Hiaso asked Shizune out, and her response?

I thought it was really sweet.

I did think it was really dull how there was no follow up to it.

Yes I liked that scene, it was actually very sweet and romantic in it own way. One thing I notced was that Shizune seemed to be very nervous throught the whole thing as though she were trying compose her emotions for a response. One thing that has been sticking with me is something Misha says early on her in route about how every word matters more in sign language. Also we all know th Shizune only does things she is good at. there fore when confronted with Hisao making his intrests known to her she finds herself literely unable to express her feeling the was she wants in words so all she manages is simple afrmation and an embrace simpliy holding him. Shizune in this scene is nervous and unsure of herself.

Playing through Act 3 again, it is alluded to that that Shizune and Hisao spent time together in Sataima, (they even went to her favorite restaurant, I am guessing it was a Tempura place.) shame we never got to see it. I lke to think they do date more, especially during time skips. Prehaps mght write a fic about the time there.

A22's writing style seems to be vey subtle, very subtext oriented and more importantly require the reader to think and use his imagination to fill in the blanks a little. Sadly, however not many people are willing to do that for my poor third waifu.