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Hisao's hatred is really undeserved in my opinion. He doesn't do anything really underhanded or bad, and even when he does screw up, he's always well meaning and thinking of others. I think the problem is that while he doesn't really do anything bad, he doesn't do anything to make us like him, either. He's just a nice guy in high school.

I don't think Hisao gets enough credit. He worked his butt off for some of those relationships. He learned a new language for Shizune, he nearly killed himself for Lilly, and the very fact that he's able to reach out to Rin and Hanako at all says alot about him as a character. Hisao really seemed to want to be there for people, he's just at a bad place in his life and doesn't quite understand the people he's dealing with.

Oddball wrote:

Hisao's hatred is really undeserved in my opinion. He doesn't do anything really underhanded or bad, and even when he does screw up, he's always well meaning and thinking of others. I think the problem is that while he doesn't really do anything bad, he doesn't do anything to make us like him, either. He's just a nice guy in high school.

I don't think Hisao gets enough credit. He worked his butt off for some of those relationships. He learned a new language for Shizune, he nearly killed himself for Lilly, and the very fact that he's able to reach out to Rin and Hanako at all says alot about him as a character. Hisao really seemed to want to be there for people, he's just at a bad place in his life and doesn't quite understand the people he's dealing with.

I agree. Most people are quick to say the hate him, but imagine if one were in his shoes. He was suddenly stricken with a heart attack, soon after being classified as disabled and finally placed in a unknown world with people whom he may not know exactly how to socialize with, especially considering Hisao, along with most of his previous friends consider him to be mostly normal before his attack. Of course he's going to be slightly ignorant when dealing with others who have been accustomed with their own disabilities for much longer. Also, when he first arrived at the school, he battled with his inner conscience as to whether his peers were normal or not. Soon after, he began to believe they were all normal due to the fact that none of them made a big deal out of their disabilities. What he didn't realize until much later is that some students, like Lilly and Shizune, had problems much deeper than what he could see. At least, that's what I gathered from it. I'd give him props.

Oddball wrote:I don't think Hisao gets enough credit. He worked his butt off for some of those relationships. He learned a new language for Shizune, he nearly killed himself for Lilly, and the very fact that he's able to reach out to Rin and Hanako at all says alot about him as a character. Hisao really seemed to want to be there for people, he's just at a bad place in his life and doesn't quite understand the people he's dealing with.

Well said. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the Hisao hatred is almost entirely undeserved. Unfortunately, the qualities mentioned here don't stop him from being something of a... what was the phrase used earlier - Mr. Average McBrownHair? But in the end I believe there's a perfect balance of having him be likeable while at the same time preventing him from becoming too spectacular. The focus should be and is always on the heroines, with us standing in Hisao's shoes (for the most part, anyway).

Fretless wrote:Not to mention that I thought Misha's character was done so well and I related to Misha so much that she just stole the show.

Couldn't agree with this any more even if I tried. Go Team Mikado!

ShadeHaven wrote:A good pole would be "Hisao vs Shizune: Which do you hate more?" I personally hate neither, but I believe it would hold some interesting results.

I never thought of this, but I agree, it might yield more interesting results.

ShadeHaven wrote: I agree. Most people are quick to say the hate him, but imagine if one were in his shoes.

I don't think it's that. While I thought he was a bit too cynical at the beginning, I could sympathize given the unusual and unexpected situation he finds himself in. What was hard to swallow was what a tool he could be sometimes. Not just a bit of a jerk, but a complete asshole that had you cringing as you read each ridiculous line spilling out of his mouth. Not just that it was bad behaviour, but that it was out of character for Hisao, who is otherwise a fairly laid back guy. Almost like he's having his male period or something.

ShadeHaven wrote:A good poll would be "Hisao vs Shizune: Which do you hate more?" I personally hate neither, but I believe it would hold some interesting results.

And while I can maybe understand the hate for Hisao, Shizune just seem utterly misunderstood.

'Hate' being a very strong word, and would probably lead to a big fight and flamewar and then the thread being locked.

As for Shizune, look at any number of 'which girl do you like best' type threads. She invariable gets dismissed with a 'oh no, she's bossy' which seems to me like they only experienced Shizune via the glimpses of her seen from other routes and the opening chapter.

metalangel wrote:As for Shizune, look at any number of 'which girl do you like best' type threads. She invariable gets dismissed with a 'oh no, she's bossy' which seems to me like they only experienced Shizune via the glimpses of her seen from other routes and the opening chapter.

Yeah, after playing through Shizune's playthrough I realize how misunderstood and broken she really is. I feel lots of sympathy for her now. Frankly, shes just not as well defined as others are in other character's playthrough. Almost giving her a completely different personality when you are on her story arc.

Frankly, I think Shizune's two best moments are in other people's routes, when she helps Hanako after her break down and her scene with Lilly when she's leaving for Scotland forever.

Oddball wrote:Frankly, I think Shizune's two best moments are in other people's routes, when she helps Hanako after her break down and her scene with Lilly when she's leaving for Scotland forever.

God, I couldn't agree with you more. I like Shizune, I really do, but she suffers from Hanako A and B syndrome between Act 1/the other routes and her own.
Terrible.

Oddball wrote:Frankly, I think Shizune's two best moments are in other people's routes, when she helps Hanako after her break down and her scene with Lilly when she's leaving for Scotland forever.

Frankly, I agree with this point of view.

But personally, I think some of her best moments are in her own routes. One is during the festival in ACT I on the fireworks festival, then Hisao's confession (the Tanabata festival), while the other is her actions through ACT IV. Call me crazy, bias, or whatever you want, but why do I think these are Shizune's best moments?

It's the moment where she is seen to be the most honest with herself. Don't get me wrong, Shizune's an honest individual and almost never lied to Hisao during her entire route. But it was during these moments that she opens up even more towards Hisao and tells him 'this is me. Either I will send you away or make you stay is all up to you'. It shows how much she trusted Hisao, allowing him to learn more about her personally, emotionally, and mentally.

In my assumption, most people define 'best moment' of character A when he/she warms up to character B or went lovey-dovey/feels/etc. In the case of many fans, its Shizune warming up to their favorite character (Hanako in her route, Lilly in her route, etc.) I'm not saying that is the wrong way to look at it, but it is just one of the many ways available. For me personally, the 'best moment' of a character is when he/she is honest with him/herself, that moment when you get to know what he/she really is. If I were to name a few...

Hanako: Post H-scene, park. One of Hisao's 'best moment' is in here too.
Rin: Dandelion field, ending, followed closely with the scene after the art fair, school, her 'response' to Nomiya (Rin has more 'best moments', but these two sticks the most in my mind)
Emi: Graveyard scene, her telling Hisao everything that led up to her being such an 'anal' to him. Her 'second chance' is one of Hisao's best moments, albeit a little too cliche.
Shizune: See my argument above.
Lilly: A little difficult for me to pin-point mainly because she 'lies' and 'babalities' Hisao a little too much. Her best moment, to me, is when she opens up to Hisao after the airport scene in the hospital. That is her best moment. unless of course that is all Hisao's dream and that in reality he died in the airport because of the heart attack

As for Shizune, look at any number of 'which girl do you like best' type threads. She invariable gets dismissed with a 'oh no, she's bossy' which seems to me like they only experienced Shizune via the glimpses of her seen from other routes and the opening chapter.

This is what I say is Shizune's "Achilles Heel". I agree with you on this view 110%.

But that is my say.
oh, glad to be back in this forum again after 2-3 days of absence

In my assumption, most people define 'best moment' of character A when he/she warms up to character B or went lovey-dovey/feels/etc. In the case of many fans, its Shizune warming up to their favorite character (Hanako in her route, Lilly in her route, etc.) I'm not saying that is the wrong way to look at it, but it is just one of the many ways available. For me personally, the 'best moment' of a character is when he/she is honest with him/herself, that moment when you get to know what he/she really is. If I were to name a few...

I don't think those are good scenes because she warms up to characters I like. I think they're good scenes because she's opening up to people that she doesn't care for. It's not often she comes out and says "I'm wrong," but here she lets her actions say that for her. Maybe they're just small gestures, but considering how hard it is for her to connect to people, they mean a lot.

Oddball wrote:

In my assumption, most people define 'best moment' of character A when he/she warms up to character B or went lovey-dovey/feels/etc. In the case of many fans, its Shizune warming up to their favorite character (Hanako in her route, Lilly in her route, etc.) I'm not saying that is the wrong way to look at it, but it is just one of the many ways available. For me personally, the 'best moment' of a character is when he/she is honest with him/herself, that moment when you get to know what he/she really is. If I were to name a few...

I don't think those are good scenes because she warms up to characters I like. I think they're good scenes because she's opening up to people that she doesn't care for. It's not often she comes out and says "I'm wrong," but here she lets her actions say that for her. Maybe they're just small gestures, but considering how hard it is for her to connect to people, they mean a lot.

She doesn't care for? Really? I think not.

1. She's the member of the student council, and coincidentally (or not) is the class-representative. As I have outlined before in my argument concerning Lilly's position as class representative, such responsibility also concerns Shizune as Hisao's class' representative (AND the Student Council). It is the duty of the class-rep to oversee the class--this include butting into problems that may affect the class or an individual within the class. If she doesn't care for Hanako--a member of her class--she won't even budge from her seat and race to finish the science project. Her standing up from her seat and escorting Hisao and Hanako outside to the hallway shows that she shows some concern for her (Hanako's) well-being. So does she care for her? Yes she does; in fact, I think she'll do this to anyone who is part of her class if they suddenly went ballistic.

2. Lilly and Shizune's 'resolve'. Now, if Shizune doesn't care for her and Lilly's unstable relationship she won't even be the first to step-up and try to amend it (which is what Lilly does throughout her route, avoiding Shizune altogether). They're cousins, that's a given fact, and family feud is common--sometimes these are often unresolved. We may never know who started the feud since the 'truth' can be easily concealed with words--it may be Shizune wanting the Student Council to be more proactive towards the school, or Lilly's procrastination that went overboard. We may never know. Shizune can easily avoid Lilly too--she's blind for one thing, ignoring her is as easy as dropping a pencil to the floor.
But does she? Does she avoid Lilly entirely? She doesn't. Instead, both in her and Lilly's route, she steps up and tried to amend the relationship. She's probably the person who wanted their relationship to return to how it once was the most out of the two, often prevented by Lilly's habit of running away from problems. So Lilly as someone she doesn't care for? Think again.


That, is my argument.
...Team Shizune and Team Rin needs to have a pact as 'most misunderstood character'.

Megumeru wrote: But personally, I think some of her best moments are in her own routes. One is during the festival in ACT I on the fireworks festival, then Hisao's confession (the Tanabata festival), while the other is her actions through ACT IV

It's interesting that you say that, because it's implied that Shizune's assistance in lifting Hisao from his depression during the first festival was selfishly-motivated or coincidental, and during Tanabata, Shizune is disappointingly unemotional when Hisao asks her to be his girlfriend. She basically just accepts the proposal with no further input (yes there is a hug, but it's careful and tentative).

And Shizune's actions in Act 4 are all about how her usual modus operandi is not an effective way to reconcile with Misha, to the point where she keeps failing over and over, and gets pretty depressed about it.

I wouldn't call any of those moments her "best".

In the end does it matter ... i can only speak for myself but i'm a Shizune fan because thats the type a girl i look for in real life ... and lilly is the type of person i would avoid in real life

it's really is that simple for me ( maybe im being to hard on lilly but the classy act and the consent mothering doesn't do it for me )

Mirrormn wrote:

Megumeru wrote: But personally, I think some of her best moments are in her own routes. One is during the festival in ACT I on the fireworks festival, then Hisao's confession (the Tanabata festival), while the other is her actions through ACT IV

It's interesting that you say that, because it's implied that Shizune's assistance in lifting Hisao from his depression during the first festival was selfishly-motivated or coincidental, and during Tanabata, Shizune is disappointingly unemotional when Hisao asks her to be his girlfriend. She basically just accepts the proposal with no further input (yes there is a hug, but it's careful and tentative).

And Shizune's actions in Act 4 are all about how her usual modus operandi is not an effective way to reconcile with Misha, to the point where she keeps failing over and over, and gets pretty depressed about it.

I wouldn't call any of those moments her "best".

But Rinbro, he said that his definition of a character's "best" is when they are being the most honest with themselves, not when they're being "nice". Those moments do fit those criteria, even if she was being her usual guarded and inflexible (but honest, always honest and, most of all, NEVER TAKING A VACATION TO SCOTLAND) persona. Now, if Shizune had pulled a Lilly and thrown herself on Hisao's arms and signed the Red Cross symbol to tell him "let me worry about youuu, puleeeeze" or all of a sudden demonstrated an incredible ability to demonstrate empathy with Misha's depression case, that would've been just... bad moments, from a reader's viewpoint, at least (she herself admits she doesn't have great people skills)

In those moments, she truly wants the best for those she likes, Hisao and Misha, but, much like Rin, she has problems achieving her goal while communicating and working together with others and, in Shizune's case, mistaking a one-sided approach for seeing the whole picture (her "compartmentalized" mind). Only Shizune's problem is the inability to "listen" (both literally and figuratively) and Rin's is a more fundamental one, the inability to understand while being very hard to be understood as well (Shizune, despite her inflexibility, is an open, and defiant, book for anyone who decides to learn how to "talk" to her).

Megumeru wrote: ...Team Shizune and Team Rin needs to have a pact as 'most misunderstood character'.

And, hey, consider the non-aggression pact seriously, we gotta bring Lilly's overwhelming power to an acceptable level, maybe conjecture about that affair with the tutor, make her lose her sponsorship like Tiger Woods. Something.

Doraleous wrote:
But Rinbro, he said that his definition of a character's "best" is when they are being the most honest with themselves, not when they're being "nice". Those moments do fit those criteria, even if she was being her usual guarded and inflexible (but honest, always honest and, most of all, NEVER TAKING A VACATION TO SCOTLAND) persona.

Which is why I said it was "interesting" that those moments were chosen. If those are her "most honest" moments, then Shizune is a selfish person who never loved Hisao and is hopelessly incompatible with her best friend. It's really weird that someone who is so devoted to Shizune would choose to focus on those aspects of her story to be the most truly defining of her character, instead of moments like the scene between Shizune and Lilly in the student council room, where she lets her antagonistic facade down to show some real compassion. But I guess that's not Shizune at her "most honest"?