Katawa Shoujo Forums

Chrono180 wrote:Am I the only one who would be willing to give a unfaithful girlfriend a second chance?

No. But there's a difference between "unfaithful girlfriend" and "girl who finds you unsatisfying and thinks you're subhuman and lies to your face for several months and feels no remorse about what she does." That last bit is key -- someone who makes a mistake and regrets it and honestly wants to make amends is a lot more sympathetic than someone who got burned and only turns to you because she's desperate. The first wants you and the second just doesn't want to be alone.

Context matters.

I actually really like this fic, because it says essentially that "even if you mess up horribly, there is a chance you can be forgiven." And sometimes, that's all that keeps me going.

Let me ask you something: do you want to be forgiven? Would you seek forgiveness even if life didn't kick you when you were down? I'm betting the answer to both questions is "yes". Note it wasn't in the case of Hanako here. As I said, context matters.

I had my own reply, but instead I'll just say +1 to Bagheera's comments.

Oh, and lolawesome? criticism is one thing but writting your own ending... not cool.

lolawesome wrote:I feel the ending was too bandaid over a gushing chainsaw on an main artery wound

and that's why I'm trying to think of ways to make the chainsaw wound more like a big papercut

I had an analogy involving hospitals and life support earlier, but then I forgot it

Bagheera wrote: Let me ask you something: do you want to be forgiven? Would you seek forgiveness even if life didn't kick you when you were down? I'm betting the answer to both questions is "yes". Note it wasn't in the case of Hanako here. As I said, context matters.

Truthfully?

I don't really know.

I've done some really bad things, and while a lot of people tell me it's not my fault, there's a big part of me that feels like I don't deserve forgiveness.

And I was given it anyway.

So I don't know.

I think the biggest problem regarding the ending, and well the entire premise of this story, is that through all the setup, Hisao is denied giving Hanako the verbal thrashing she justly deserves

I realize you're going for the "she's on the verge of suicide" angle, but Hisao as the projection of us - the player in the VN and the reader as the narrator of your story, it boils the blood that Hisao/we can't tell her what she should hear

She never got her just deserve punishment - throw that bullshit "she was raped" out of here - she needed to hear Hisao tell her how much she hurted him and how it'll be nearly impossible for him to ever trust her again because of the betrayal. She needed to be told how fucking dare she look down on him as a cripple after he elevated her psychologically to overcome her insecurities about her physical scarring

Hisao really needed that cathartic release, if to put us the reader (as we are putting ourselves into him) to finally be relieve of just a modicum of all the anger and frustrations that has welled up and on the verge of exploding throughout this story

You even mentioned he tried to cried but couldn't ... and for me, that is the greatest injustice. Hisao (i.e. we) never got that cathartic release and Hanako never just her just retribution (again, EFF that rape - she deserved that and more) - preferably both at the same time

txalolrn9 wrote:she deserved that and more

nope.avi

Mahorfeus wrote:Admittedly, your situation is different in many ways, but the principle of forgiveness is always the same.
Telling the truth is the first step to reestablishing trust, which is essential for any relationship to have any future.

That! What the Hanako of this story did was very stupid and selfish. The results of her acts were disastrous, she suffered and will still suffer a lot as a result, and therein lies her punishment. But she told the truth to Hisao. She could have hid it and pretend it was just her past coming back, or any other convenient excuse. She cared enough about Hisao to tell him the truth, had regrets about what happened, and also wanted him to still love her, even if only a bit, despite her colossal mistake. Hisao has a hard time for it, but in the end he proves to be the Master of Forgiveness. I cannot feel but respect for that.

Edit: As for the ending of the story, what he didn't need to give her was a verbal trashing, but and admonition, followed by him offering his forgiveness. That alone is enough to both humble and heal Hanako.

What txalolrn9 said.

Now Hanako is going to (at the very least subconsciously) think that Hisao will usually forgive her and she'll continue fucking around, rebounding to him when shit hits the fan. That does happen in real life, though, so that's why the story is at least somewhat believable.

And Hanabros who continuously try to find an excuse or a bridge over the valley of disbelief - this relationship would never work (in this scenario). There isn't an alternate universe where it would work.

No, the truth isn't enough when the truth is horrible, and it certainly matters WHY she's being truthful. In this case it's clearly NOT because she feels bad about what she did because if not for the rape and disappearance of her other man (and I still think the latter of those issues is more hurtful to her) she'd still being carrying on in her web of happy little lies. No, she's desperate for her own selfish reasons that have nothing to do with caring about Hisao or how much she's really hurting him. If she honestly wanted to go back to him she could have cut it off at any time, could have kept the truth from him because honestly it can't do anything but hurt him. Suffering in silence to allow him to remain blissfully unaware is far kinder than truth. Even then she's not just honest but brutally so, as if she really wants to hurt him with how deep the betrayal goes. No, these are not the actions of someone with remorse. They're the actions of a liar, a thief, a junkie... someone trapped and desperate for a way out of the mess they put themselves into.

She doesn't need to be scolded. Hisao doesn't need to tell her off, or hit her, or anything else to punish her. He needs to walk away and do whatever it takes to forget her. She's a toxic rose with thorns burrowing into his heart, and though it's going to hurt like hell pulling her loose it's the only way he'll ever get better. Staying with her is only going to serve as a constant reminder of what she's done and will probably do again, of what she really thinks of him and everyone he's come to care about at the school, and of how little she actually values anyone's happiness other than her own. It colors their every conversation, seeps into his mind even when they have sex, haunts his dreams. There's no way he can ever get over this as long as he's with her, regardless of if he still feels he wants her alive and near him. The boy is a pathetic addict and he needs rehab, cold turkey.

Besides, nothing in the world is ever going to serve as a stronger wake up call for her than being abandoned again. If she wants to fix herself it has to be because she wants it, not because she thinks she owes it to someone else or society or her parent's memory or anything else at all. If it's not heartfelt it's worthless and cheap, and she will eventually slip off again into the same issues because she still really doesn't respect him and probably never will. Afterall, if she hates herself and he loves her anyway, doesn't that make him disgustingly pathetic and even lower than herself?

nemz wrote:will probably do again

This. Ugh. What is this crap? It's come up more than once, and frankly I'm not understanding what the basis of it is. It entirely defeats the purpose of reestablishing trust, which is exactly what Hanako and Hisao tried to do. Hanako told Hisao everything; she did so knowing full well that he might never be able to look at her again, let alone forgive her. Regret is not always something that just seeps in after the moment; sometimes it takes time for the full magnitude of one's mistakes to become clear. Her motives weren't selfish - even Hisao deduced that she didn't want his pity. By then, the ball was in Hisao's court. Her life basically became his to control from that point on.

Hisao's idea was to try to forget it ever happened. That is not forgiveness, and that is exactly how those thoughts you described fester in one's brain. You have to come to terms with those kinds of things, something which he failed spectacularly at. Of course he can't forget it, but he can forgive her for what she did, because regardless of the betrayal, they still have feelings for one another. Hanako wouldn't have had to bother to tell him otherwise.

They're stuck with each other - Hanako's route established that he needs her as much as she needs him, and that they didn't understand crap about each other. In the long run this may or may not just be one hurdle that they had to jump over to reach that point.

Anyway, I think I'm going to have to stop ranting for now. I have more Dr. Pepper than hemoglobin in my bloodstream right now, and I really need some sleep.

It entirely defeats the purpose of reestablishing trust

There was no such thing on behalf of Hanako, her confession smelled like she was boasting ("he is better than you blah blah", were she regretful and trying to establish trust, she'd have chosen the words more carefully) and just feeling bad about it because she's insecure as USA's budget.

Regret is not always something that just seeps in after the moment; sometimes it takes time for the full magnitude of one's mistakes to become clear

So you agree that she still doesn't regret it. That doesn't sound like a resolved situation to me.

Her motives weren't selfish - even Hisao deduced that she didn't want his pity

She didn't want his pity because she quite simply didn't give a flying rat's ass about his pity. Her whole wallowing in self-pity was caused by the fact that she started taking into account the delicate aspect of SOCIAL STANDARDS. "Cheating is unacceptable, shit, I transgressed, better rethink my game here."

Her life basically became his to control from that point on.

I'd say the other way around. Hisao is now completely dependent on her. His thoughts are basically littered with bullshit contemplation trying to find an excuse for her and he successfully manages to come up with some really stupid ideas which in his mind redeem her somewhat.

they still have feelings for one another.

I sincerely doubt that Hanako cares about Hisao any more. The whole "back together" thing on the rooftop smells more like social pressure on her part. She feels that if they don't get back together, she'll be the ultimate social outcast for having destroyed its norms and not done the "right" thing.

They're stuck with each other

Oh, I couldn't agree more. The problem is that this relationship will be such a feelercoaster that it will probably induce the most dysfunctional family in the whole period of the existence of fried chicken.

Don't try to justify her, please. This whole situation is fucked up and there is no justification now. If she had just been sincere with everyone - including herself (acknowledging the fact that she obliterated her idiosyncratic standing in society, accepting the fact that she doesn't feel sincerely guilty about it and telling Hisao about it without all the irrelevant juicy details),then it could work. Now - not so much.

Oh, and a final thought - people are much more simpler than we think. There's no need to be digging in shit to find a way to excuse something - sometimes there are no such excuses and mere wording of one's thoughts may provide ways to interpret the message as something completely different.

EDIT: And don't forget Hisao being the completely submissive male here. This can't be good.

EDIT2: And why does everything have to end on a good note? Not everything is happy in life, why can't the fic end on the idea that the relationship is doomed to fail, why must it always be all flowers and cookies?

EDIT3:Fucking bbcode fucking up

My only problem with this story is that Hanako's dialogue is so straightforward and honest with Hisao that it comes across as flat. She just comes out and tells him stuff despite everything about the situation saying she should have at least a little bit of difficulty doing it. The stutter is there and the hesitation is there, but the emotion that should be isn't.

So it turns out that going to sleep isn't easy when you're on caffeine. Go me. Well, the rebuttal, if you have the patience and sobriety to read it.

Mealforthree wrote:There was no such thing on behalf of Hanako, her confession smelled like she was boasting ("he is better than you blah blah", were she regretful and trying to establish trust, she'd have chosen the words more carefully) and just feeling bad about it because she's insecure as USA's budget.

I don't see how sugarcoating her words would have helped the situation any. The whole point was to give context for her apology. And in the end, "Why?" would have been Hisao's first question anyway. Leaving out the details would be no better than lying.

Mealforthree wrote: So you agree that she still doesn't regret it. That doesn't sound like a resolved situation to me.

Well, she did express regret over only regretting her actions once she got hurt. Regret over the failure to regret. She's aware of how apathetic she is about the situation, and hates it. That's getting there, right?

Mealforthree wrote:She didn't want his pity because she quite simply didn't give a flying rat's ass about his pity. Her whole wallowing in self-pity was caused by the fact that she started taking into account the delicate aspect of SOCIAL STANDARDS. "Cheating is unacceptable, shit, I transgressed, better rethink my game here."

And yet she was prepared to kill herself because she believed he would no longer accept her, not this society you speak of. She pitied herself because she knows he was one of the only people that ever loved her, and that she might have fucked that all over. The only other people she even considers being ashamed of her are Hisao and her parents, the latter having the fortunate proposition of being dead.

Mealforthree wrote:I'd say the other way around. Hisao is now completely dependent on her. His thoughts are basically littered with bullshit contemplation trying to find an excuse for her and he successfully manages to come up with some really stupid ideas which in his mind redeem her somewhat.

Hisao was calling bullshit on his own actions, not Hanako's. He was dealing with emotional turmoil that her rape caused him - his love for her made it painful to him, but he decided to be a dumbass and cater to her feelings regarding the incident rather than his own. It has little to do with "redeeming" her. He was at least that aware of himself.

Mealforthree wrote:I sincerely doubt that Hanako cares about Hisao any more. The whole "back together" thing on the rooftop smells more like social pressure on her part. She feels that if they don't get back together, she'll be the ultimate social outcast for having destroyed its norms and not done the "right" thing.

Again, this makes no sense in the context of her being ashamed of hurting the person closest to her. Social pressure has nothing to do with it. She wasn't about to throw herself off the roof because she thought the world hated her, she was going to do it because she thought it was the only way to give the single most important person to her peace. If she didn't give a fuck about him she'd just blitz through high school and do whatever the hell she wanted for the rest of her life.

Mealforthree wrote:Oh, I couldn't agree more. The problem is that this relationship will be such a feelercoaster that it will probably induce the most dysfunctional family in the whole period of the existence of fried chicken.

Assuming that they linger on this moment for the rest of their conceivable lives, but that would be ignoring the entire point of moving forward with their lives instead of sitting on their asses eating fried chicken and getting too fat to do so.

Mealforthree wrote:Don't try to justify her, please. This whole situation is fucked up and there is no justification now. If she had just been sincere with everyone - including herself (acknowledging the fact that she obliterated her idiosyncratic standing in society, accepting the fact that she doesn't feel sincerely guilty about it and telling Hisao about it without all the irrelevant juicy details),then it could work. Now - not so much.

And therein lies the point. I'm not trying to justify Hanako, I'm trying to justify Hisao's ability to forgive her. Everybody else seems intent on dumping her ass and drinking mind bleach. It's not even a question of whether she deserves it, because we have absolutely no emotional investment in her. Hisao on the other hand, does. And that's all from taking it all literally.

Making it more complicated than it really is seems to be what you're doing. This isn't like the Scarlet Letter or anything. Or Easy A. That was a funny movie. I should watch it again.

Anyway, some small part of me still thinks that Brogurt planned this all.

Mahorfeus wrote:

nemz wrote:will probably do again

This. Ugh. What is this crap? It's come up more than once, and frankly I'm not understanding what the basis of it is.

The basis of it is the same basis that led to her cheating in the first place, because it still hasn't been addressed in any way. He doesn't satisfy her needs and she doesn't really respect him. Nothing has changed, so why would she not eventually end up going down the same or a similar path to find what she needs elsewhere? She isn't going to restrain herself for his sake because she still doesn't care about him, and even if she did she'd be miserable which would ruin the relationship anyway. At most she'll be more careful in choosing her extraneous partners from now on because she's almost certainly going to end up blaming the whole mess on Tenshi's dickishness and Hisao's lack thereof rather than on herself.

This relationship is broken and it can't be unbroken. Love does NOT conquer all.

Nice rebuttal, Mahorfeus. We agree to disagree; I could rant for pages how I feel that you are wrong etc etc, but that is pointless. It's fun to argue, though.