Katawa Shoujo Forums

Titus wrote:

bradpara wrote:

Titus wrote:No, I enjoyed it too

Shizoon's route is like a two for one deal. Remember Hisao always saying Misha and Shizune are inseparable? Well that's how the story is. Hisao romances Shizune but has to try and keep him and the two girls close to each other instead of breaking up. For the people saying the relationship between Hisao and Shizune is like a friends with benefits type, remember that Shizune is very work oriented.

Also maybe it's implied that Shizune doesn't want to be so friendly *wink* with Hisao if Misha is there because of Misha's feelings for her. She does it when Misha is not around right~? Right~! Wahahaha.

Remember the end "three musketeers". That's what the story is.

Yeah, Shizune is very work oriented. The Student Council is always going to be something that is going to come first for her. Combined with the fact that her deafness means that she is not used to communicating with people (esp hearing people) without an interprater means that she has a hard time wth realtionships in general. I have always thought of Shizune as a lonely rich kid, even before she was confirmed to be. She is not used to dealing with people so freindship is going to be hard for, let alone romantic love. That combined with the fact that she is conscious of Misha's feelings and doesn't want to hurt her any more than she has makes things awkward.

I also by into the theory posted here that Shizune is a variant on the "sunao cool" archetype. Though she hides her emotions behind her usual ultra competitive nature (though paradoxically she also uses it as a way of expressing it. I always interpreate Shizune's eagerness to play with Hisao as a way of flirting without flirting. ) And in times when Misha is not there she expresses her feeling in the most direct way she can, sex.

Her route is something you have engage with at an intellectual level to truely get. It not the wave of feels that say, Lilly and Hanako are, but it is good if you are willing to open your mind to it.

Agreed. Hopefully it all works out for Hisao when he keeps chasing Shizune, after all, he can suffer a heart attack and die at any moment which would...hmm... devastate? or strongly hurt? Meh would be bad for Shizune and a bit for Misha.

I wonder, how would shizune and Misha handle Hisao's death?

Yeah, I think that with the issues surrounding the triangle with Misha resolved and Shizune finally starting to develop her emotions more. Things might have a good chance of working out for them. I actually do belve that they both care for eachother deeply its just that circumstances made thier realtionship very complicated.

If you haven't read Shizune's Epilouge or Weekend at Hisao's fic n the fourms in the fan fic section please, especially the latter since it shows very much how I think their Post Good Ending relationship would have evolved.

I see Shizune being very devasted probably even a little guilty about not being able to communiacte her feelings better. Misha may even take it wrose though. Seeing Shizune in pain might make her feel even worse.

RE: Hisao's early death

Shizune would take it hard. I believe she doesn't talk to Hisao about his condition (she knows about it - she more than likely noticed the scar even if she didn't point it out or ask about it like the other girls did, and she does have access to student's records) because even though she's definitely not a person to let a disability define someone, something like arrhythmia would most likely terrify the shit out of her. The condition requires many medications for the heart to even keep up with day to day life, but even then there are flutters and hospital visits and even future operations to fit pacemakers - you can try your best to control it, but Hisao can never truly just forget about it or the extreme likelihood of an early death, and for as long as she's with him, neither can Shizune. I think that later on in their relationship they'd learn to deal with the condition as it comes whether a heart attack or a change in meds or an operation, but Shizune might even have to come to terms with it more than Hisao would. Her route proves that one of her worst fears is losing people close to her, and that was without impending death involved. So yeah, Hisao's passing would definitely devastate her.

Misha would also be extremely upset, of course, and even if she was overseas she'd definitely come back (maybe even permanently) to attend the funeral and support Shizune.

Today I read Act 4 of the Shizune path again because I was wondering about something. Pretty quick I was reminded of why I enjoyed it so much when I read it first.

I suspect that the reason why a lot of people don't like this path as much has to do with expectations. Especially after act 1 gave high expectations for a romance story. I didn't really have any expectations myself, just a hope that behind Shizune confidence there would be a good measure of insecurity. I got what I wanted. And then some!

What strikes me most about the writing in act 4 is that it makes me feel a slowly growing adoration for Shizune's character. Which is quite a trick because Misha was not getting less interesting at the end. Having recently finished all the other paths, I now see that this is definitely unique. Where the other paths had bursts of high emotion, the Shizune path just more gradual. And to me it was definitely a good thing to have something a little different.

I think the most heard complaint is that there is no romance in this story. While this is technically true, the reason is simply that the story is not so much about the Hisao/Shizune relationship, as it is about the Misha/Shizune relationship. This becomes very clear if you check the timing of the events. Act 2 has Hisao learning sign in order to even consider starting something. But by the end of the Act when Shizune does accept to be Hisao girlfriend, the problems with Misha have already started. What follows is short timespan with a lot of scene in which any romantic development is basically put on hold because Shizune finds herself in a situation that she can't control. Her failing to deal with the Hisao/Misha triangle and subsequent growing insecurity is the real interesting story here. This is what builds here character. The confusing bit is that after Hisao helped Misha and Shizune grow back together, there is a substantial time skip. This would actually be the period where you would expect the romantic relationship between Hisao and Shizune to grow. However, you're more or less expected to fill this in for yourself as you only get to see the result in the scene with the new student council. It is clear that all three have grown closer and are more comfortable with each other. And the subsequent sex scene showed that their romantic relationship was much further along as well. It's just that the how was left up to the reader.

With that I found the end completely fitting. It ended where the story that was told finished. The untold story, the one of the romance between Hisao and Shizune was left open. Gutsy, but very much appropriate.

The story was easily the most difficult one to understand and I'm pretty sure that reading it again will show me some nuances that I had missed before. What I probably would have liked to see is some attempt of Hisao to get closer within the story. Even if it didn't pan out because Shizune was just too preoccupied. However, that is a minor thing and won't really change how I experience the story. And maybe I will even change my mind when I read it again.

Well, this is how I experienced it and why I loved it. I can't really say if I like it the best since I find it difficult to compare the different experiences. But it's definitely the one I most look forward to reading again.

re: Hisao dying, Shizune would be crushed. He pushed himself hard from the very first moment for people he barely knew, in spite of his problems, that's possibly why she holds him in such high regard. He's opened her eyes to love and affection like nobody she's ever met, so she's got a special attachment to him that to be broken prematurely would be devastating. She'd think "we had so much more to teach each other, to learn from each other, and now... now I'll never know."

DeleV wrote: With that I found the end completely fitting. It ended where the story that was told finished. The untold story, the one of the romance between Hisao and Shizune was left open. Gutsy, but very much appropriate.

Yup. Shizune knows at first, Hisao finds out later: Misha. They had to keep it fairly low key because they both liked her and didn't want to upset her. There's more to the romance than we see, I think (the little arc animation suggests they like going up on the roof to pass notes, which isn't something we see in the story, along with Misha, having probably accompanied them up there, making a discreet exit as she realizes they're absorbed in each other).

Probably not the first to say it, but it isnt that Shizune's route isnt enjoyable, matter of fact I almost enjoyed it more than Hanako's, but the ending fell off with just a single sentence. I don't understand why it was worded the way it was, but it just didn't sit right with me and had less of an impact because of that, compared to the impact all other character endings had one me. It isnt that it is bad, just the ending fell off where the other 4 good ending routes did not.

Guys I just noticed something that someone else pointed out (not here). During the first H-scene with her, she runs her hands along Hisao's for a while. She "talks" with her hands too...

Could it be possible that this is her way of "kissing" Hisao? Then again, I may be reading too much into this and am being retarded. I just wanted to know your reactions to this and how you saw it.

And question: Hisao said Shizune tied his hands for more than just the obvious reasons. What were they?

Titus wrote:Guys I just noticed something that someone else pointed out (not here). During the first H-scene with her, she runs her hands along Hisao's for a while. She "talks" with her hands too...

Could it be possible that this is her way of "kissing" Hisao? Then again, I may be reading too much into this and am being retarded. I just wanted to know your reactions to this and how you saw it.

Well it's entirely how you view it. It could very well have been just that and i might add that's a very astute observation of that scene.

That's why i like Shizune's route in hindsight. The subtleties.

Titus wrote: And question: Hisao said Shizune tied his hands for more than just the obvious reasons. What were they?

She likes to be in control, it gives her confidence. She's taking a huge step in their relationship, and doesn't want anything to go wrong, so she's only happy if she knows she's in complete control of what happens.

Titus wrote:And question: Hisao said Shizune tied his hands for more than just the obvious reasons. What were they?

Actually talked about this at the beginning of the thread, my fault for being lazy and not putting this stuff in the OP:

As metalangel said, part of it is definitely that she likes to be in control, especially when taking such a big step in their relationship (if, at that point, you can call it one...more on that in a moment). That's just her personality/character at work. But then, that's too easy, isn't it?

Shizune is a very isolated person. She has had to communicate with other people through Misha for basically her whole adolescence and before that had to resort to even less effective methods (writing on paper, for instance). Her people skills, as you can imagine, and as are clearly demonstrated, are either very lacking or at the far end of the spectrum (like with her very competitive nature).

So when it comes time to relate herself to Hisao in her relationship to him, it manifests itself in very awkward ways. She doesn't really understand how relationships work, having barely been able to communicate herself effectively in any situation, much less when it comes to expressing love. And so, when she decides it's time to finally get that out on the table she does it the only way she really knows how: she pins him down, ties him up and fucks him.

It's meant to stand for the lack of intimacy between them at that point, despite Shizune's intention of actually bringing them closer.

In my arrogant opinion, in any case.

metalangel wrote:

Titus wrote: And question: Hisao said Shizune tied his hands for more than just the obvious reasons. What were they?

She likes to be in control, it gives her confidence. She's taking a huge step in their relationship, and doesn't want anything to go wrong, so she's only happy if she knows she's in complete control of what happens.

I think you should look at this from a little wider perspective. After reflecting on the story, this is my analysis of the situation.

The whole sequence leading up to this starts at he Tanabata festival when Misha leaves early. This was very uncharacteristic for Misha and about as subtle as dropping an anvil on Shizune. On top of that she gets a confession which she has to accept because she it's what's she wants. Shizune is pretty bright and she has to know something is up between here and Misha that needs fixing. But things get complicated when Hisao squeezes himself into her summer stay at home and now she has to juggle both Misha and Hisao again. The first attempt to take control is right there at the fishing trip where she attempts to get the three together in a team effort. Things fail and she finds herself separated from Misha once again. Deciding that the more immediate problem is Misha, she starts focusing on Misha and attempting to keep Hisao entertained otherwise. Now comes the particular day. First Misha cuts her hair. The symbolism of this is a whole separate discussion. And in an accidental event she is confronted by the fact that they are not as close as she should be as 'girlfriend'. In a very Shizune-like fashion, she now tries to fix this in one big gesture. As Pl4t0 already wrote, her experience in how to handle relationships in pretty much non-existent. So she won't have any idea how Hisao would respond to this. So by having him close his eyes and tying him up, she prevents communication, giving her the illusion of control. But to me, the whole scene only represents her growing insecurity. I would say this is the whole point of act 3, the loss of confidence due to her failure to control her relationship with Misha.

Now please don't disagree all at once.

... That makes way too much sense for me to disagree with. It's perfectly in character for Shizune, so no objections here.

DeleV wrote: I think you should look at this from a little wider perspective. After reflecting on the story, this is my analysis of the situation.

...

Now please don't disagree all at once. :wink:

I hardly disagree at all. I have a slightly different take, though. At this point in the story, we're still dealing with a Shiz that very much resolves the world around her in a self centered, predatory way. I won't deny that it was an act of insecurity, but I think it's simpler than that... or maybe a lot more complicated. :P What I'm saying is, this is about her working through some things for her own sake. She might feel Hisao should be a part of that, but she also doesn't want him to get in the way of it either.

Now that I write this out, what I'm saying isn't exactly mutually exclusive from what you're saying.

PS Yes, I highly enjoyed Shizune's arc.

DeleV wrote:

metalangel wrote:

Titus wrote: And question: Hisao said Shizune tied his hands for more than just the obvious reasons. What were they?

She likes to be in control, it gives her confidence. She's taking a huge step in their relationship, and doesn't want anything to go wrong, so she's only happy if she knows she's in complete control of what happens.

I think you should look at this from a little wider perspective. After reflecting on the story, this is my analysis of the situation.

The whole sequence leading up to this starts at he Tanabata festival when Misha leaves early. This was very uncharacteristic for Misha and about as subtle as dropping an anvil on Shizune. On top of that she gets a confession which she has to accept because she it's what's she wants. Shizune is pretty bright and she has to know something is up between here and Misha that needs fixing. But things get complicated when Hisao squeezes himself into her summer stay at home and now she has to juggle both Misha and Hisao again. The first attempt to take control is right there at the fishing trip where she attempts to get the three together in a team effort. Things fail and she finds herself separated from Misha once again. Deciding that the more immediate problem is Misha, she starts focusing on Misha and attempting to keep Hisao entertained otherwise. Now comes the particular day. First Misha cuts her hair. The symbolism of this is a whole separate discussion. And in an accidental event she is confronted by the fact that they are not as close as she should be as 'girlfriend'. In a very Shizune-like fashion, she now tries to fix this in one big gesture. As Pl4t0 already wrote, her experience in how to handle relationships in pretty much non-existent. So she won't have any idea how Hisao would respond to this. So by having him close his eyes and tying him up, she prevents communication, giving her the illusion of control. But to me, the whole scene only represents her growing insecurity. I would say this is the whole point of act 3, the loss of confidence due to her failure to control her relationship with Misha.

Now please don't disagree all at once.

Someone has to start the slow clap! I went over each part of the story in her route for fun and a better understanding, but I never actually put them together to see what they say overall! Thanks!

First Misha cuts her hair. The symbolism of this is a whole separate discussion.

Arrgh, anyone already discussed this somewhere? All I could think of was that Misha went by her own judgement and cut her hair, disobeying Shizune's wishes. Which is what she never does from what I remember.

Am I right ?

Shizune's path was nice when I played it... but after doing Lilly's path, still not finished yet, I'm not such a fan of Shizune anymore...

Titus wrote:

DeleV wrote:First Misha cuts her hair. The symbolism of this is a whole separate discussion.

Arrgh, anyone already discussed this somewhere? All I could think of was that Misha went by her own judgement and cut her hair, disobeying Shizune's wishes. Which is what she never does from what I remember.

Am I right ?

That's part of it, but cutting your hair is a symbol in Japanese culture (IIRC) of trying to get over a failed romance.