Katawa Shoujo Forums

Read the whole thing thanks for writing @@

Guest Poster wrote:I mean no disrespect, but I don't think you should write while you're tired. I'm having difficulty following your post. But I'll try.

I'm Sorry I'm Sorry I'm Sorry, I don't even remember all of what I was trying to say, I'm So Sorry!

Guest Poster wrote:I don't think we're arguing character interpretation but writing style here, but more on that in a bit.

First of all, I'm not sure why you think it's wrong to have characters occasionally thinking stuff that's meant to draw amusement out of the reader.

No, it's not wrong, it just feels ..strange to me, since I can't personally imagine Hanako saying those things. But that's due to my own views of her, and not of anything related to your method of story-telling.

Guest Poster wrote:Hisao had amusing thoughts all the time during his interactions with Kenji during Act 1, even though he was in a bit of a downer mood that first week. I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make by selectively quoting the scene you referred to. There´s no anger in that scene. The exact moment you quoted involved Hanako having a brief "WTF"-moment (and any reader familiar with Emi's arc along with her) before clarifying with a "no, it's not that kind of thing". If you read anger in that part of the story, then I can only say you got it completely wrong.

No no, I didn't see anger in there, I just thought that the line was "out of character" too much. It certainly was amusing, but would it be something Hanako would really think? (again, it's not you, it's just me, your writing's very good, and I'm an idiot)

Guest Poster wrote:If you're trying to say that I put too little emphasis on emotions while describing scenes...I probably emphasize events and dialogues of a story over describing how characters feel at that moment because I'm not overly fond of navelgazing and I kinda wrote the story while making the assumption that the readers can figure out the involved characters' emotions and moods through their words, actions and thoughts without the need to have things spelled out for them. This is probably a difference in writing style and it´s kinda hard to objectively discuss since it´s so personal.

Yeah, I know, and you did it Very Well, which is why I Respect you! What I'm pointing out is, how the characters seem to think a little differently than I imagined they would. ("out-of-character-ness", if you would, but.. that is still just me)

Guest Poster wrote:I'm not sure where the "anger"-thing in your argument comes from...in general (with a few exceptions), I tried to write Hanako to either be on her guard or in a resigned "Do I really have to be here?"-mood when dealing with people outside her small comfort zone and she's generally relaxed but still just slightly awkward around Lilly and Hisao.

Yeah I know, I have no complaints about how Well you pulled that off.

Guest Poster wrote:I'm not sure what we're arguing here. You mentioned Hanako wouldn't be able to hide her feelings well and that she'd be a poor liar. I agreed on that, but pointed out that there's a difference between telling a lie and keeping her own thoughts to herself and that Hanako's an expert in the latter, with the pool scene as an example of her clearly forming a strong opinion on something and yet keeping it bottled up inside. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here.

Well, the fact that she "shut down" / "blacked-out" / "blue-screened" for a moment there, and stared at Hisao for so long, means she just gave away that the words "I'll protect you" deeply affected her, and she "lied" to Herself by her thinking that Hisao meant it romantically and not as a "White Knight" (albeit she thinks that with a doubt, which would eventually lead to the anger in the bad end).

And even that doubt she feels manifests itself noticeably, with Hisao feeling their relationship "changed" a little, and Hisao "feeling" that he's 'further apart' from Hanako.

Guest Poster wrote:If you want to focus on Hanako's bad end...I'd say there's plenty of differences. The reason she's holed up in her room is different, the reason one of her friends comes in to drag her out is different, the reason that friend is overly persistent is different...what's mostly similar is the way it ends.

Well, True, but I meant that... those scenes meant something to me in the game, and I felt that you didn't add enough variety / ingenuity to make that scene worth "re-using" in your story's context. It's just too similar.

While I'll concede that may be the point, as per your story's purpose, I just felt an .."oddness", that the feelings I felt in those scenes were being "reused".

But, that again, is just me. You really don't need me to assure you how good a job you did. So ...ignore me, I guess.

Sorry.

Guest Poster wrote:Feel free to reply or argue, but please get some sleep first. It's really difficult to make sense of what you're trying to say.

I'm Not arguing! I'm just saying what I'm thinking! And I'll probably keep my mouth shut from now on.

sorry.

No, it's not wrong, it just feels ..strange to me, since I can't personally imagine Hanako saying those things. But that's due to my own views of her, and not of anything related to your method of story-telling.

You mention that she SAYING those things, but she isn't. She's merely thinking them. Just because some people are introverted doesn't mean they don't have baffled or exasperated thoughts whenever the situation calls for it, they just don't voice them. Hisao has deadpan snarker thoughts on numerous occasions throughout KS, but very rarely does he share them with the people he's talking to. I saw no reason why Hanako would be any different. If she DID end up voicing her thoughts on a regular basis, like you're saying, then I agree that would be out of character. But that's not happening.

No no, I didn't see anger in there, I just thought that the line was "out of character" too much. It certainly was amusing, but would it be something Hanako would really think? (again, it's not you, it's just me, your writing's very good, and I'm an idiot)

Why not? Lilly mentions that deep down beneath her shyness Hanako is still a rather ordinary girl. If a situation would baffle an ordinary person, there's no reason Hanako's reaction should be radically different.

Well, the fact that she "shut down" / "blacked-out" / "blue-screened" for a moment there, and stared at Hisao for so long, means she just gave away that the words "I'll protect you" deeply affected her, and she "lied" to Herself by her thinking that Hisao meant it romantically and not as a "White Knight" (albeit she thinks that with a doubt, which would eventually lead to the anger in the bad end).

I don't think Hanako lied to herself back there. I actually believe that Hanako jumped to the conclusion that Hisao was definitely White Knighting her right then and there and she wasn't giving him much benefit of the doubt. Hanako probably went to bed that night believing Hisao saw her as nothing more than a child to be protected. The next day however, after Lilly left for the airport and Hisao expressed sincere interest in hanging out with Hanako (by taking her into the city in broad daylight), Hanako's appraisal of him started faltering again, essentially keeping her once again in a state of doubt about his real intentions. (leaving both the neutral and the good end open, depending on how Hisao'd react to Lilly) Had he not opted to spend time with her that day, her opinion from the night before would have cemented itself and the situation would become irreversably locked into bad-end mode.

Well, True, but I meant that... those scenes meant something to me in the game, and I felt that you didn't add enough variety / ingenuity to make that scene worth "re-using" in your story's context. It's just too similar.

While I'll concede that may be the point, as per your story's purpose, I just felt an .."oddness", that the feelings I felt in those scenes were being "reused".

I think it's difficult to compare two scenes side by side when one of them competely happens off-screen. Part of what you're mentioning is something I've actively tried to avoid. That's why I skipped straight from the night where Hisao and Hanako agreed to join Lilly on a trip to Hokkaido to the second night of their stay in the summer home (skipping the train ride and initial day there) and that's also why Hisao agreed to join Mutou's science club off-screen...I tried not to include any scenes that'd seem like straight carbon copies for too long. If you're talking about the re-use of EVENTS, rather than SCENES and the fact that you had certain feelings tied to those events which were now being used in a different context...well, there's not much I can do about that.

Sorry.

There's really no need to apologize so much for your opinion.

Guest Poster wrote:

No, it's not wrong, it just feels ..strange to me, since I can't personally imagine Hanako saying those things. But that's due to my own views of her, and not of anything related to your method of story-telling.

You mention that she SAYING those things, but she isn't. She's merely thinking them. Just because some people are introverted doesn't mean they don't have baffled or exasperated thoughts whenever the situation calls for it, they just don't voice them. Hisao has deadpan snarker thoughts on numerous occasions throughout KS, but very rarely does he share them with the people he's talking to. I saw no reason why Hanako would be any different. If she DID end up voicing her thoughts on a regular basis, like you're saying, then I agree that would be out of character. But that's not happening.

Okay...

I just thought she'd be more... gentle, on the inside.

I know I know, you're trying to keep her "still reeling" from her traumatic past, and I'd say it's a good way of doing that.

Guest Poster wrote:

No no, I didn't see anger in there, I just thought that the line was "out of character" too much. It certainly was amusing, but would it be something Hanako would really think? (again, it's not you, it's just me, your writing's very good, and I'm an idiot)

Why not? Lilly mentions that deep down beneath her shyness Hanako is still a rather ordinary girl. If a situation would baffle an ordinary person, there's no reason Hanako's reaction should be radically different.

I imagine Hanako would just freak out, and not... no, nevermind. I really can't disagree about her being a normal girl underneath it all. I guess I'm just taken really off-guard as much as Hanako was with the prospect of ..weridnesses involving lubricant.

Guest Poster wrote:

Well, the fact that she "shut down" / "blacked-out" / "blue-screened" for a moment there, and stared at Hisao for so long, means she just gave away that the words "I'll protect you" deeply affected her, and she "lied" to Herself by her thinking that Hisao meant it romantically and not as a "White Knight" (albeit she thinks that with a doubt, which would eventually lead to the anger in the bad end).

I don't think Hanako lied to herself back there. I actually believe that Hanako jumped to the conclusion that Hisao was definitely White Knighting her right then and there and she wasn't giving him much benefit of the doubt. Hanako probably went to bed that night believing Hisao saw her as nothing more than a child to be protected. The next day however, after Lilly left for the airport and Hisao expressed sincere interest in hanging out with Hanako (by taking her into the city in broad daylight), Hanako's appraisal of him started faltering again, essentially keeping her once again in a state of doubt about his real intentions. (leaving both the neutral and the good end open, depending on how Hisao'd react to Lilly) Had he not opted to spend time with her that day, her opinion from the night before would have cemented itself and the situation would become irreversably locked into bad-end mode.

err... since we don't really know what's going on in her head, I'll just agree with you completely.

Guest Poster wrote:

Well, True, but I meant that... those scenes meant something to me in the game, and I felt that you didn't add enough variety / ingenuity to make that scene worth "re-using" in your story's context. It's just too similar.

While I'll concede that may be the point, as per your story's purpose, I just felt an .."oddness", that the feelings I felt in those scenes were being "reused".

I think it's difficult to compare two scenes side by side when one of them competely happens off-screen. Part of what you're mentioning is something I've actively tried to avoid. That's why I skipped straight from the night where Hisao and Hanako agreed to join Lilly on a trip to Hokkaido to the second night of their stay in the summer home (skipping the train ride and initial day there) and that's also why Hisao agreed to join Mutou's science club off-screen...I tried not to include any scenes that'd seem like straight carbon copies for too long. If you're talking about the re-use of EVENTS, rather than SCENES and the fact that you had certain feelings tied to those events which were now being used in a different context...well, there's not much I can do about that.

I noticed that, and you are very good to have thought of that when writing. So it really is just me.

Guest Poster wrote:

Sorry.

There's really no need to apologize so much for your opinion.

okay.., and Thanks, Guest Poster. You're a Great Guy.

I am now a little bit more Enlightened.

Thank You.

So...I just registered for you !

I want you to know that this fanfiction is the best story (and no, not only epilogue) i have ever read in my entire life...I'm pretty sure it will stay this way..I'm a guy who usually doesn't lets out tears...not that i don't want to ...somehow i just can't manage to bring myself...something you accomplished more than only once! I hank you for your work ...I thank for this game(visual novel) however you call it... I'm looking forward to create this story to ...hmm let's call it a continue to the hanako and lilly story...in the same way like the game usually intends to ...without probably the choosing parts of the game... but only if you allow me to do so... unfortunately if even so that i could recieve your agreement ...It'll have to wait a few years...a long time...cause I'm only at the beginning of my programming carrer...but this will definetly my most looked forward to goal!!! I am deeply thankful for achieving this goal and having read this story... i'll hope you'll doing this kind of your profession so i can buy your work as soon as possible

I posted a review on TV Tropes, where I found the link. Darn good way of meshing elements from various routes, and the original content was cool. (Although I suspect that Lily had felt Hanako's face before off-screen, it doesn't detract from the awesomeness of your last scene.)

Thanks guys.

(Although I suspect that Lily had felt Hanako's face before off-screen, it doesn't detract from the awesomeness of your last scene.)

KS itself never makes this clear, though it's suggested that Hanako is only comfortable about her friendship with Lilly BECAUSE Lilly can't see her and that's why she's so puzzled about Hisao's interest in her as he can see her and yet is still interested in being friends. That thought only makes sense if Lilly truly did not know what Hanako looked like and knowing that Hanako feels uncomfortable about her friendship and is afraid to lose it if she rocks the boat too much, it makes sense to me that she wouldn't allow Lilly to catch a glimpse.

I agree on the "not in canon" part, but I'll think a bit less of Lily, if she didn't insist on feeling Hanako's face. If being best friends did not even translate to a proper introduction (feeling = seeing for the blind), no wonder Hanako feels that even Lily is being a White Knight to her, White Knighting which we all know seems to run in Lily's veins along with her blood.

I tried to alleviate this by including a part about them having tried it, but Hanako lost her nerve at the last moment. While Lilly's generally curious about others, she's not the kind of person who pressures others for information they're reluctant to share. Her patient personality generally allows her to wait until others become comfortable enough to share more. But because of that, Lilly knows very little about Hanako...she admits to Hisao that a lot of what she knows about Hanako's past is by connecting various dots, not because she got the information straight from the horse's mouth. Even after a year, Lilly barely knows anything concrete about her friend and she reluctantly admits as much to Hisao.

Hanako, on the other hand, has a very valid reason for not to wanting to show herself to Lilly...her friends from elementary school whom she trusted at first became her bullies the moment they saw what her accident turned her into. It makes sense that (until she learned to completely trust Lilly) Hanako wants to avoid replicating that scenario at any cost.

I have no doubt Lilly's very curious about what Hanako looked like, but it's not in her character to pressure her friend into something she doesn't want to do.

Lilly's and Hanako's canon introduction wasn't what you'd call a proper introduction either. Hanako just came by Lilly's room one night for company and comfort, but was too anxious to even speak to her...during the first couple of visits, it was just Lilly speaking and Hanako just sitting there and listening. It took several visits for Hanako to be comfortable enough to say anything back. That alone would rule out the possibility Lilly'd insist on "seeing" Hanako. If she was fine with spending time with Hanako without the latter even giving a spoken introduction, it also makes sense she'd be fine with being friends without knowing what Hanako looks like, even though she'd like to know.

Oh, and thanks for the review, btw.

True, true. Personally, I think Hanako sends out mixed signals on how she wants to be treated. She doesn't want to be patronized, but her reactions do not exactly allow for honest contact. Add in Lily's tendency to go around the problem, and there we go.

CPL_Crud, one of Hanako's writers, pointed this out when he mentioned that in his eyes, Hanako's bad end wasn't just Hisao's fault, despite the fact that the latter was worrying about her to the point of being downright patronizing. In reality, most people would rightfully worry if one of their friends were to lock herself up in her room and spend days in there without coming out, even to eat and Hanako did very little to ease any worries. He noted that Hanako doesn't always stop to think how her actions impact others and because of that she sometimes places undue stress on the relationships with her friends.

Guess that is why many people felt that her Bad End is not THE end of the whole relationship.

You've probably heard this over a thousand times, but this is beyond good.
I didn't know what to expect when the TV Tropes page said this was the closest thing to a natural extension of KS. Not that I don't like other FF by other people, just this one felt good to go through.
I'm not really as hardcore of a KS guy as others might be on this forum, but good work man.
If I knew how to work VN's, I would've made this portion into a game.

I really, really, really, really hope that you consider writing more. You got Hanako's personality dead on, and it'd be a shame if you couldn't write more. Cpl_Crud (or however you spell his name) would be proud.
Thanks for the enjoyable read.

This story is now canon in my mind, and is the true ending of Hanako's line.

Almost lost it in the last chapter where Lilly thinks (I've always wanted to know)

Wow. That was very good. Took me a while to finish it, but it was well worth it.