Katawa Shoujo Forums

ksfan1989 wrote:Are we really putting this much thought into a side character's sexuality?

Tedious, isn't it? I see a lot of it in society in general, people endlessly ruminating on whether other people might be gay or not like it really fucking matters to them.

metalangel wrote:

ksfan1989 wrote:Are we really putting this much thought into a side character's sexuality?

Tedious, isn't it? I see a lot of it in society in general, people endlessly ruminating on whether other people might be gay or not like it really fucking matters to them.

In this case it changes the meaning of a fairly important scene and the motivations behind it significantly. If we were talking about, say, Kenji, then it would be stupid and irrelevant, but we're not.

How many threads does it need, though? You can argue this back and forth forever and you will never have a definitive answer.

I'm curious as to what you're expecting to get out of this anyway; are you expecting some hidden deeper meaning to reveal itself based on whether she is a lesbian/bi/pan/something else?

metalangel wrote:How many threads does it need, though? You can argue this back and forth forever and you will never have a definitive answer.

I'm curious as to what you're expecting to get out of this anyway; are you expecting some hidden deeper meaning to reveal itself based on whether she is a lesbian/bi/pan/something else?

Oh well sure, this should probably be merged somehow, it's redundant.

As for the topic, it's just speculation. It's fun, some different perspectives on the scene and maybe some insight are revealed through group conversation, and even if at the end of the day we decide that we're done and that it's just unclear and that's it, then at least we came to a general conclusion.

As for the revelation, if we did determine that she was likely one thing or another, yes, it would give a deeper meaning to the scene one way or another. If she's bi or something similar/compatible, then her motivations were more sexual and it indicates that Misha is prone to giving into temptation. If she's not, then her motivations were more literally about comfort and it indicates that she was more depressed than the novel would lead you to believe on the surface, which was pretty depressed as is. It would give some insight to the whole "did she really believe people were better off without her/was she possibly actually contemplating suicide" debate too, because if she was so depressed that she was willing to go against her orientation for pure comfort, then she was likelier to be serious about those things. If not, then those were likelier to just be fleeting thoughts, and nothing she was seriously considering.

It's as relevant to her character and the actions she takes as anything else is. It's not more important, and I wouldn't judge her no matter which orientation she was, but it's a part of her as a person, and one that specifically becomes plot relevant. A22 has said that the route was a character study of Shizune, but based on his mindset, and his intentional vagueness in order to provoke readers to draw their own conclusions, I'd wager that he intended people to think about this too, and that it was partially a study of Misha as a character as well. I could be totally off, but it would be consistent.

You've already worked out what the "deeper meanings" are for each possibility. It feels like the discussion is being prolonged for its own sake. Are we really this short of topics now?

metalangel wrote:You've already worked out what the "deeper meanings" are for each possibility. It feels like the discussion is being prolonged for its own sake. Are we really this short of topics now?

I don't know... do you have something you want to talk about more? There's an add topic button here, and the forum rules actively encourage reviving relevant, interesting topics. I've started a number of topics that have nothing to do with this. I'm up for it either way.

Atario wrote:

ksfan1989 wrote:She's pretty gay. Hisao's just too thick to realize it until he gets flat out told about it.

I'd love to know what he's supposed to have picked up on prior to being told the backstory…

Other characters are seem to have done so. Context cues are worth a lot, and Misha doesn't seem to be making a lot of effort to hide it.

As the reader we're limited by Hisao's perspective, since the story is told from his point of view. He fails to pick up on anything that could indicate it and conveniently therefore we're equally unable. This allows the story to perform that bit of sleight of hand whereby we have a false conflict stemming from a seeming rivalry between Misha and Shizune, whereas the reality is the opposite.

metalangel wrote:Tedious, isn't it?

It gets that way, yeah. Katawa Shoujo fans seem to engage with the work in a lot of ways that are frankly a bit weird. Maybe it's an otaku thing, I'm not really deep into that culture so I don't know what's normal. It's kind of a shame because I think insisting she has to like boys diminishes both Misha's character and the setting in general.

ksfan1989 wrote:It's kind of a shame because I think insisting she has to like boys diminishes both Misha's character and the setting in general.

I don't think anybody is saying that she isn't allowed to not like boys, I think people, including myself, are/were under the impression that it made sense based on her actions. "Has" referring to context within the VN, not referring to what she can/can't do as a person. Why would being bisexual diminish her character and the setting?

SpunkySix wrote:Why would being bisexual diminish her character and the setting?

Because part of what makes Misha (and her storyline, and by extension, the VN) an interesting and compelling character is that she's not just waiting for Our Plucky Protagonist to come along and stick it in. She's living her own life and has her own problems, and none of those problems are even remotely related to dicks or the boys attached to them. Making her Yet Another Love Interest detracts from the depth of the setting, since having her be completely uninterested in Hisao contributes to the feel that this is an actual living world that doesn't revolve around the player character. This whole theme works best if she's just completely uninterested in boys entirely; deciding that she's bisexual ends up being a bit of a copout and muddies up her motivations for acting the way she does (which I guess is the point for people who insist on it).

Put it this way; if Misha's bisexual, her night with Hisao is about trying to escape her feelings for Shizune. If she's gay, it's about trying to escape who she is at the very core of her being. One is confusion and depression, the other one is complete desperation. If she has feelings for Hisao, even just lust, the whole scene is diminished.

Apart from that the whole thematic inversion where the player expects her to want him and gets it completely wrong only really works if she's gay. That's the whole point. Hisao and the player both expect her to confess that she's so torn and miserable because Shizune is cuddling up to Hisao, and then it turns out it's because Hisao is cuddling up to Shizune. It's one of the better moments in the entire VN but it doesn't work nearly as well with a bisexual Misha.

ksfan1989 wrote:

SpunkySix wrote:Why would being bisexual diminish her character and the setting?

Smart stuff

I can see all that. You're right. I have to wonder which was intended still, but this does make more sense thematically.

ksfan1989 wrote:

Atario wrote:

ksfan1989 wrote:She's pretty gay. Hisao's just too thick to realize it until he gets flat out told about it.

I'd love to know what he's supposed to have picked up on prior to being told the backstory…

Other characters are seem to have done so. Context cues are worth a lot, and Misha doesn't seem to be making a lot of effort to hide it.

We don't know what the other characters saw or were told. Maybe Misha was openly pursuing Shizune leading up to her confession and rejection; maybe she was even romantic with other girl(s) before that. It would have been obvious to them in that case. She wouldn't be doing any of those things when Hisao came along. Without anything so obvious to go on, he would have to have pro-level gaydar to suss it unaided, especially since Misha's whole outward appearance seems to be about inventing this transformative bubbly persona and burying herself within it.

As the reader we're limited by Hisao's perspective, since the story is told from his point of view. He fails to pick up on anything that could indicate it and conveniently therefore we're equally unable.

It's not hard to have a first-person protagonist notice things but not understand what they mean, while making it clear enough to the reader. If the intention was to have Hisao be thicker than us about it, it would be eminently doable. Of course that would ruin the "surprise" you mention later on (inversion of expectations), so making us and Hisao thick about it becomes a necessity of the trick (if indeed the trick is the point, as you hypothesize).

SpunkySix wrote:Why would being bisexual diminish her character and the setting?

Because part of what makes Misha (and her storyline, and by extension, the VN) an interesting and compelling character is that she's not just waiting for Our Plucky Protagonist to come along and stick it in. She's living her own life and has her own problems

That's all still true for bi-Misha.

none of those problems are even remotely related to dicks or the boys attached to them.

That's false even for lez-Misha. Shizune and Hisao becoming a couple is a central problem, from her point of view. The problem then doesn't have a component of her having any desire for Hisao romantically, of course, but that in no way means it has nothing to do with him. She's pained to see her love interest with someone else, and she's conflicted about being friends with that same someone else — who, by necessity, is a boy.

Making her Yet Another Love Interest detracts from the depth of the setting, since having her be completely uninterested in Hisao contributes to the feel that this is an actual living world that doesn't revolve around the player character.

It changes the quality of her interest, but it doesn't eliminate it. She is friends with him either way, after all.

This whole theme works best if she's just completely uninterested in boys entirely; deciding that she's bisexual ends up being a bit of a copout

It's only a copout if you start from the position that her being a pure lesbian is the point in the first place. If the point is to tell an involving story, either way works.

and muddies up her motivations for acting the way she does (which I guess is the point for people who insist on it).

Why should "muddying up" her motivations be any worse than "muddying up" her nature (as a supposedly pure lesbian)? And, no, that's not the point; the point is to start from observed evidence and work backward to seek a cause. Many of us find a pure lesbian initiating sex with a boy less plausible than a bisexual doing so, and see nothing contradicting the latter theory in this case, regardless of how much more interesting it may make the story for any particular reader.

Put it this way; if Misha's bisexual, her night with Hisao is about trying to escape her feelings for Shizune. If she's gay, it's about trying to escape who she is at the very core of her being. One is confusion and depression, the other one is complete desperation. If she has feelings for Hisao, even just lust, the whole scene is diminished.

That's a matter of preference. Complete desperation is not inherently better than confusion and depression and love/lust, as character motivations go. Also, let's not forget that in either case, it's possible that some part of her wants to hurt Shizune for having hurt her.

the whole thematic inversion where the player expects her to want him and gets it completely wrong only really works if she's gay. That's the whole point.

Not true. All that's required is that the player not expect that the problem is that she wants Shizune. It's simpler if she's gay, but simpler isn't by definition better.




At any rate, my own theory about the whole thing is that all this ambiguity we're wading through was a lot of the point.

Atario wrote:At any rate, my own theory about the whole thing is that all this ambiguity we're wading through was a lot of the point.

^This is true, especially of Shizune's route.

Atario wrote: At any rate, my own theory about the whole thing is that all this ambiguity we're wading through was a lot of the point.

Incompatible with the obsession to know as many details as possible, to have a definitive set of information, Wiki-style.

metalangel wrote:

Atario wrote: At any rate, my own theory about the whole thing is that all this ambiguity we're wading through was a lot of the point.

Incompatible with the obsession to know as many details as possible, to have a definitive set of information, Wiki-style.

I think that's kind of the reason this keeps going despite probably not having a clear answer. People want to know for sure. It doesn't matter what the answer is, as long as we can potentially find one.