Katawa Shoujo Forums

SpecimenSix wrote:

Potato wrote:

Oddball wrote:I don't think she was ever suicidal either. I think that was just Hisao jumping to a wrong and more dramatic conclusion. Yeah, she feels rotten later on and wants to curl up into a ball and cry, but I don't think she's likely to kill herself.

More like it was Misha being melodramatic enough to lead people to that conclusion.

In what world is Misha being upset and hanging out on the rooftop being melodramatic? It's been a long time but I'm almost certain she never once mentioned anything about jumping off, or even hinting at the thought of it. If you mean her being upset because of her unrequited love is being melodramatic then I think we have completely different definitions for that word.

She doesn't specifically verbally entertain the notion of jumping but she does lean heavily on the fence while letting fly with "Things would be better if I were dead" rhetoric. There's some pretty plain telegraphing of suicidal thought going on, and Hisao doesn't really have much reference to determine if she'd go through with anything like that or not.

Potato wrote: She doesn't specifically verbally entertain the notion of jumping but she does lean heavily on the fence while letting fly with "Things would be better if I were dead" rhetoric. There's some pretty plain telegraphing of suicidal thought going on, and Hisao doesn't really have much reference to determine if she'd go through with anything like that or not.

When I hit that point in the VN I thought the "things would be better is I was dead" line was pure emotional manipulation. I was also really cheesed at Hisao for not responding more and engaging more, because if someone is hurting badly enough to pull that kind of manipulation they're hurting pretty badly.

Liminaut wrote: When I hit that point in the VN I thought the "things would be better is I was dead" line was pure emotional manipulation. I was also really cheesed at Hisao for not responding more and engaging more, because if someone is hurting badly enough to pull that kind of manipulation they're hurting pretty badly.

Misha really doesn't seem like a manipulative person to me, though she certainly lets Shizune use her to manipulate others.

I think that when Misha said that, she was being honest. Really honest. More honest than she'd been for most of the game.

Note that the "it would be better if I was dead"-line seems a bit similar to Hanako's "it would be better if I didn't exist"-line. It doesn't necessarily imply they're suicidal.

Guest Poster wrote:Note that the "it would be better if I was dead"-line seems a bit similar to Hanako's "it would be better if I didn't exist"-line. It doesn't necessarily imply they're suicidal.

I think the difference is that 'it would be better if I was dead" implies having had existing and removing yourself to make other lives better in the future - the past, however, is not changed. Hanako seems to feel responsible for her parents' death and therefore feels if she had never existed her parents would still be alive. In short, Misha's seems more 'solution-based' where Hanako's is an irreversible thing she feels. Not sure I worded that well, but hopefully my gist is gotten across.

AaronIsCrunchy wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:Note that the "it would be better if I was dead"-line seems a bit similar to Hanako's "it would be better if I didn't exist"-line. It doesn't necessarily imply they're suicidal.

I think the difference is that 'it would be better if I was dead" implies having had existing and removing yourself to make other lives better in the future - the past, however, is not changed. Hanako seems to feel responsible for her parents' death and therefore feels if she had never existed her parents would still be alive. In short, Misha's seems more 'solution-based' where Hanako's is an irreversible thing she feels. Not sure I worded that well, but hopefully my gist is gotten across.

Not to mention Hanako's soulcrushing depression and plethora of mental issues is on an entirely different level than Misha's feelings for Shizune.

Potato wrote:

SpecimenSix wrote:

Potato wrote:
She doesn't specifically verbally entertain the notion of jumping but she does lean heavily on the fence while letting fly with "Things would be better if I were dead" rhetoric. There's some pretty plain telegraphing of suicidal thought going on, and Hisao doesn't really have much reference to determine if she'd go through with anything like that or not.

I’m not an expert or psychologist, but my general experience is that threatening suicide is a cry for help or attention where the person feels nothing else will get a reaction. I used to work on the railway which is a favourite place for people to kill themselves. If someone intended to die, the first we’d hear about it was when a driver reported hitting them or their body was spotted next to the line (it’s not unheard of for people to get hit at night and the driver to not notice). People who stood on a platform or bridge and said they were going to jump never did.
 
Misha, sitting there on the roof, just doesn’t see the point in continuing and also wishes she hadn’t endured all this in the first place. I personally wish I was dead for the same underlying reasons, but I haven’t jumped off the roof.

I'd say "threatening suicide" is overstating what Misha does by a large margin.

It's a bit like coming home after a hard day at work and telling your friends to "kill me"
Nobody would really take that seriously.

Mirage_GSM wrote:I'd say "threatening suicide" is overstating what Misha does by a large margin.

It's a bit like coming home after a hard day at work and telling your friends to "kill me"
Nobody would really take that seriously.

Ehhh, it's a lot less sarcastic though. Maybe she doesn't want to kill herself, but she's in a much darker spot than that.

metalangel wrote:People who stood on a platform or bridge and said they were going to jump never did.

Yet many people who stood high above the ground believing they'd be better off dead did exactly that.

And either way, it's definitely a far cry from someone sarcastically saying "kill me" after a hard work day...

Potato wrote: Yet many people who stood high above the ground believing they'd be better off dead did exactly that.

And either way, it's definitely a far cry from someone sarcastically saying "kill me" after a hard work day...

Looks like you missed the very important "threatening suicide is a cry for a help/attention vs people who intend to do it, just go ahead and do it" distinction I made in my last post.

metalangel wrote:

Potato wrote: Yet many people who stood high above the ground believing they'd be better off dead did exactly that.

And either way, it's definitely a far cry from someone sarcastically saying "kill me" after a hard work day...

Looks like you missed the very important "threatening suicide is a cry for a help/attention vs people who intend to do it, just go ahead and do it" distinction I made in my last post.

No, I got that. Just seems like an unnecessary distinction here. Yeah, people who threaten it from atop a bridge generally don't do it...But Misha isn't one of them.

The guy who climbs out on a ledge and screams "I'M GONNA JUMP!"...He's not gonna jump. Usually.
The guy who quietly carries untold depression for nobody-knows-how-long, plainly contemplates his demise (out loud or otherwise), then finds himself with the opportunity to jump...Well, he might take it.
Many who've actually gone out that way didn't make any explicit or loud threats or cries for help but were noted as (sometimes) voicing such thoughts and (most times) being depressed. Sounds like Misha to me.

Potato wrote:
No, I got that. Just seems like an unnecessary distinction here. Yeah, people who threaten it from atop a bridge generally don't do it...But Misha isn't one of them.

That's not what you said before, you were either saying 'your (MA) own real life experience that people who actively, noisily threaten to: well actually, they do' or what?

Or is this what comes from trying to pick apart one scene in ways the author never intended, to conclusions they never intended?

My feelings about that scene was that Misha was essentially saying "For God's sake Hisao, tell me that you want me in your life and you'd be upset if I just up and died". And Hisao ... even in the good ending his response is pretty minimal. It was the one point in the VN where I was genuinely mad at the guy. Even Hanako's bad end didn't honk me off the way this scene did.

I will point out that there is reasonable evidence that Misha can be somewhat manipulative. For instance, in the "Misha's Disability" thread there was substantial discussion about Misha's comment to Hisao that she has trouble with stairs, and so Hisao has to do the bulk of the work getting stuff. The thread conclusion was that Misha was yanking Hisao's chain to get him to do all the work; i.e., Misha was being intentionally manipulative.

I didn't take it that way at all. I took it as Misha genuinely having pondered the concept. Not that she came to the conclusion that it really would have been better, but the thought crossed her mind in its anguish.