Katawa Shoujo Forums

I have nothing to add to the topic right now, but I have to say that you have a beautiful avatar, dutic

Mirage_GSM wrote:I have nothing to add to the topic right now, but I have to say that you have a beautiful avatar, dutic

That he does.

wazuzu wrote:From what I remember and understand, even if she can, it's the most basic stuff. She doesn't have the time to watch other people's mouthes, while simultaneously watching Misha's wrists.

I dunno about JSL, but I've been half-heartedly studying BSL. Apparently the most important things Deaf people look for are the lips and facial expressions. All of the signing is primarily taken in through peripheral vision to help with differenciating the word.

That being said, all I've done is read a 'BSL For Dummies', I could be wrong.
That and JSL could be completely different to BSL. I know ASL is.

Munchenhausen wrote:I know ASL is.

Hi
ASL

wazuzu wrote:

Munchenhausen wrote:I know ASL is.

Hi
ASL

20/m/uk
U bby????

Munchenhausen wrote:BSL

Guess as to what this means before looking it up: Belorussian Sign Language

Munchenhausen wrote:U bby????

Guess as to what this means before looking it up: Big Black Youth

Because that ASL joke never gets old.
 
BSL is British Sign Language, and is in a separate language family from ASL and JSL which are in their own (having evolved on their own, separately)

Munchenhausen wrote: I dunno about JSL, but I've been half-heartedly studying BSL. Apparently the most important things Deaf people look for are the lips and facial expressions. All of the signing is primarily taken in through peripheral vision to help with differenciating the word.

That being said, all I've done is read a 'BSL For Dummies', I could be wrong.
That and JSL could be completely different to BSL. I know ASL is.

There is more mouthing in BSL than ASL, as I understand it. In ASL, facial expressions, brow position and mouth movements are used grammatically or to modify the meaning of what you're signing (in fact, failure to do this or use the correct ones can completely alter the meaning of what you're saying.) You are correct that eye contact is considered important, and you learn to watch a person's face rather than their hands when conversing.

metalangel wrote:Because that ASL joke never gets old.
 
BSL is British Sign Language, and is in a separate language family from ASL and JSL which are in their own (having evolved on their own, separately)

Munchenhausen wrote: I dunno about JSL, but I've been half-heartedly studying BSL. Apparently the most important things Deaf people look for are the lips and facial expressions. All of the signing is primarily taken in through peripheral vision to help with differenciating the word.

That being said, all I've done is read a 'BSL For Dummies', I could be wrong.
That and JSL could be completely different to BSL. I know ASL is.

There is more mouthing in BSL than ASL, as I understand it. In ASL, facial expressions, brow position and mouth movements are used grammatically or to modify the meaning of what you're signing (in fact, failure to do this or use the correct ones can completely alter the meaning of what you're saying.) You are correct that eye contact is considered important, and you learn to watch a person's face rather than their hands when conversing.

Dutch Sign Language (NGT) is also the same, facial expression, brow position, mouth movements are grammatical elements or indeed sign modifiers, though NGT is more mouthing than ASL. Eye contact is more etiquette rather than 'reading lips'. I expect that this is the same for BSL. In fact, from what I gleaned from BBC's sign language interpreters, I don't see the difference between NGT and BSL in that aspect.

As for myself... I'd put lip reading into Room 101. It's an useful tool to assist into understanding conversation, but it is just one of the tools available and on itself not sufficient. As per Wikipedia, supported by personal experience, only 30% of what is being said (not 30% in terms of how many words!) can be understood through lip reading alone. Too many sounds have a too similar mouth shape to differentiate reliably... Never mind that it requires a good understanding of how a word is being said. Yet a lot of hearing people think that lip reading is an ideal solution. Yes, it is an ideal solution for them because it costs them the least effort, no additional knowledge etc. For me, just lip reading, it costs a lot of effort & energy with barely any results (and that is with a quite phonetic language, Dutch, which is a lot easier than English). Never mind the fact that it is quite situational, that Hearing people often need to be reminded to stay in a position and facing to enable lip reading, which is even more hassle... No thanks, if I had to choose to learn just one skill for communicating with the Hearing world, lip reading would most certainly end up at the bottom of the list.

I seem to recall a few times Hisao tried to communicate with her before he knew sign language and she always looked at him like he was a complete idiot. Seems if she knew how to read lips, she would have let him know.

Oddball wrote:I seem to recall a few times Hisao tried to communicate with her before he knew sign language and she always looked at him like he was a complete idiot. Seems if she knew how to read lips, she would have let him know.

Or she's a controlling troll who wanted him to learn sign language, which based on her character seems entirely possible. And I'm not joking either. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't rule either possibility out.

SpunkySix wrote:

Oddball wrote:I seem to recall a few times Hisao tried to communicate with her before he knew sign language and she always looked at him like he was a complete idiot. Seems if she knew how to read lips, she would have let him know.

Or she's a controlling troll who wanted him to learn sign language, which based on her character seems entirely possible. And I'm not joking either. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't rule either possibility out.

I dunno man, I think that's a fairly small possibility (although it IS I guess). I'm with Oddball on this one, I think she'd have let him in at some point. And surely Misha wouldn't be able to control herself after a while anyway

AaronIsCrunchy wrote:

SpunkySix wrote:

Oddball wrote:I seem to recall a few times Hisao tried to communicate with her before he knew sign language and she always looked at him like he was a complete idiot. Seems if she knew how to read lips, she would have let him know.

Or she's a controlling troll who wanted him to learn sign language, which based on her character seems entirely possible. And I'm not joking either. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't rule either possibility out.

I dunno man, I think that's a fairly small possibility (although it IS I guess). I'm with Oddball on this one, I think she'd have let him in at some point. And surely Misha wouldn't be able to control herself after a while anyway

Now that I'm reading that back, it was sort of a stretch... oh well. Good point.

Kutagh wrote:I'd put lip reading into Room 101. It's an useful tool to assist into understanding conversation, but it is just one of the tools available and on itself not sufficient. As per Wikipedia, supported by personal experience, only 30% of what is being said (not 30% in terms of how many words!) can be understood through lip reading alone.

This is not my experience with it. I used to work with a deaf guy, and he did a lot better than any 30%. I'd put his performance at at least 90% with most people. (Not with me, though, unless I really tried to help, because I hardly move my lips when I talk, apparently. I shoulda been a ventriloquist.)

Atario wrote:

Kutagh wrote:I'd put lip reading into Room 101. It's an useful tool to assist into understanding conversation, but it is just one of the tools available and on itself not sufficient. As per Wikipedia, supported by personal experience, only 30% of what is being said (not 30% in terms of how many words!) can be understood through lip reading alone.

This is not my experience with it. I used to work with a deaf guy, and he did a lot better than any 30%. I'd put his performance at at least 90% with most people. (Not with me, though, unless I really tried to help, because I hardly move my lips when I talk, apparently. I shoulda been a ventriloquist.)

There's more in the toolbox than just lip reading, that is what is improving his performance. Body language, context etc... If I work solely on lip reading, without context or body language then I'll achieve roughly 30%. Knowing what it should be about removes a lot of possibilities. For example, 'to' /'two'/''too', you can't hear nor see the difference. However if I say two beer, it is not logical to assume 'to beer' or 'too beer'. Though it could be 'two bear' too, unless you're in a pub.

Kutagh wrote: There's more in the toolbox than just lip reading, that is what is improving his performance. Body language, context etc... If I work solely on lip reading, without context or body language then I'll achieve roughly 30%. Knowing what it should be about removes a lot of possibilities. For example, 'to' /'two'/''too', you can't hear nor see the difference. However if I say two beer, it is not logical to assume 'to beer' or 'too beer'. Though it could be 'two bear' too, unless you're in a pub.

to beer or not to beer