Katawa Shoujo Forums

SemisoftCheese wrote: I'm sincerely sorry to have really struck a nerve with you; I didn't mean for my opinion to be taken in such a hostile way. I think the best part of forums is that everyone gets to post, no matter where you come from, and that you can share your opinion or interpretation however you like. I was in a bit of a bad mood when I wrote that post, and I regret doing so.

It's fine.

SemisoftCheese wrote:I personally treat my friends (yes, I do have them, and I'm pretty sure they don't hate me behind my back), as individual, self-acting beings. If they have problems, I'm always there with my stash of candy, sarcasm, and an open ear. If you have a problem, I'll drive miles and hours to fix it.

But in my opinion, I respect my friends by leaving them alone sometimes. I'm not their mother, and I shouldn't be solving all their problems, because they're a human being and they might want to fix it themself. If they want to talk to me about it, I'm there, always. But most of the time, they solve their problems on their own. It's better for all of us that way. I think there's a point to be made that it's quite possible that the other characters will eventually resolve their problems on their own; and find happiness in their own way.

That is a possibility, however my point was that Hisao wasn't involved with his friends at all after act 1 (except Lilly/Hanako in their routes and Misha in Shizune's, although the latter was handled abysmally).

SemisoftCheese wrote:Admittedly, none of my friends have problems as serious as Hanako's, Rin's, etc. They tend to revolve around Winter Formal dates or whatever. And if I met 5 lovely girls who desperately needed help, I'd probably try and do my best to help them all. But if I fell in love with one of them, and started seeing less of the others as I tried to fix the one I love, would I be a bad person? Furthermore, if I didn't know of their disabilities (presuming by playing one route, you don't uncover the problems uncovered in the others), would I be a bad person? And even if I did know, and chased after one because I loved her instead of fixing all five, would I be a terrible person?

There's holding your love in a higher regard than your friends and there's completely ignoring them. There's really no reason why he couldn't have spent time with them as well, as you really didn't need to have that deep a connection with them to help them out.

Hmm, i thought this was going to be a thread arguing that even in the good endings, it would have been better for the girl if she never met Hisao.

I can't say i relate to OP's feelings, since i viewed KS as more of a story than anything else, so my connection with the characters is like the connection i feel with other fictional characters, i don't particularly want Hanako to be real or anything like that to be honest, why would i?

So yeah, for me the good endings were most definitively good. The story is resolved in one of the best way possibles, the endings are generally fitting conclusions to beautiful tales, and Hisao and the girl get to be happy with each other, what's not to like?

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Think about it; in any route that isn't her own, Lilly goes to Scotland to live a shell of a life away from those who actually care for her for the sake of a family that doesn't really care about her,

She stays until sometime around graduation in Shizune's route at least.

Rin goes to be miserable as Nomiya's bitch,

I forget who's route it is, but in another route, Rin says Nomiya has been pressuring her into doing an art exhibit and she's just been ignoring him.

All of this could be solved if Hisao actually stayed close to the other girls who are still his friends, but nope, shit lives for everyone his dick isn't in.

There are a few problems wit that though. Hisao has to put forth a hell of a lot of time and effort to find out about any of these girls' problems. Hanako isn't even going to approach him if he's busy talking to Rin and Emi. He's not going to have time to visit Rin's art exhibit if he's busy working for the student council. etc etc.. The problems these people have are, in some cases, pretty deeply rooted. Lilly doesn't even know much about Hanako for instance and they spend lots of time together. He's not going to find out about her views on friendship and her own selfworth if he's just a pal that sometimes hangs around them.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe she was capable of moving on and it's not just a facade? It's never hinted at being a facade at that point.

She goes back to acting the way she used to, which is very blatantly shown to be a facade. You could say it isn't a facade NOW, but that seems a bit unlikely.

Well, unless Hisao can time travel and is into polygamy, I doubt he can romance or even relate to and thus save all five girls

His heart can barley handle Lilly by herself, add the other girls and he's dead for sure. His heart would never last.

It's good for her, not necessarily for his other friends. I'm sure he'd be a lot happier if his reunion didn't consist of a soulless Japanese teacher filled with regret, a lonely athlete who's alienated everyone in her life, Shizune, and Rin and Misha who aren't there because they killed themselves.

I think now you're reaching a little bit.
Where do you get the idea that everybody is suicidal?

Oddball wrote: She stays until sometime around graduation in Shizune's route at least.

There's still the rest of her life where the only person that cares about her is Akira.

Oddball wrote:I forget who's route it is, but in another route, Rin says Nomiya has been pressuring her into doing an art exhibit and she's just been ignoring him.

Must've missed that. Also, if this were true, that would mean it was all Hisao's fault that she went through that.

Oddball wrote:There are a few problems wit that though. Hisao has to put forth a hell of a lot of time and effort to find out about any of these girls' problems. Hanako isn't even going to approach him if he's busy talking to Rin and Emi.

I don't really know when he could talk to Rin, but he could definitely take up running with Emi again and hang out then.

Oddball wrote:He's not going to have time to visit Rin's art exhibit if he's busy working for the student council.

Hisao: "Hey, girls, Rin's doing an art exhibit. Wanna come?"
Shizune & Misha: "Sure."

Oddball wrote:The problems these people have are, in some cases, pretty deeply rooted. Lilly doesn't even know much about Hanako for instance and they spend lots of time together. He's not going to find out about her views on friendship and her own selfworth if he's just a pal that sometimes hangs around them.

She did join the school paper in Lilly's route when Hisao was just her friend, that seemed to help.

Oddball wrote:I think now you're reaching a little bit.
Where do you get the idea that everybody is suicidal?

It was pretty heavily implied that Misha was contemplating suicide during the roof scene, and in act 3 of Rin's route they were constantly drawing parallels between her and the artist that killed himself.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:It was pretty heavily implied that Misha was contemplating suicide during the roof scene, and in act 3 of Rin's route they were constantly drawing parallels between her and the artist that killed himself.

To be fair though, i always assumed the route was making allusions to a symbolical/spiritual suicide rather than a literal one. Then again, it probably doesn't make a differece for the purpose of the story. And while Hisao probably could have been friends with all the girls (and being in a relationship with one of them) it's likely his level of involvement with the other girls is going to be minor compared to the involvement he had with them in their respective routes.

There's still the rest of her life where the only person that cares about her is Akira.

Are you kidding? Lilly's the only one of the girls who's stated to have a lot of friends. Sure, she doesn't do more than socialize with most of them, but Lilly's social skills will pretty much ensure she'll never be really lonely, even without Akira.

Must've missed that. Also, if this were true, that would mean it was all Hisao's fault that she went through that.

If it was, so what? I don't see anything wrong with encouraging your friends to take advantage of opportunities as they arise. Sure, it went wrong in Rin's case but I don't think it's reasonable to expect Hisao to have seen that one coming, given that he didn't really know Rin very well at the time. That said, it's not impossible Rin'd give in eventually. She still has half a school year ahead of her and as graduation approaches, she'll be hard-pressed to figure out what to do after school.

I don't really know when he could talk to Rin, but he could definitely take up running with Emi again and hang out then.

Emi's attachment issues aren't really likely to come up in the first place unless she gets involved with someone who wants more than hang out casually.

Hisao: "Hey, girls, Rin's doing an art exhibit. Wanna come?"
Shizune & Misha: "Sure."

Misha, I can imagine, but Shizune? During her route, I didn't even get the impression that Shizune and Hisao were actively going on dates...Shizune's life seems to revolve for 90% around the student council and as long as there were student council related duties pending, there's no way Shizune would go hang out at some exhibit outside the school grounds. Additionally, Shizune doesn't seem like the type for exhibits...she gets bored extremely quickly and doesn't care much for activities she can't turn into a competition in some way or another. Exhibits are too passive for her.

She did join the school paper in Lilly's route when Hisao was just her friend, that seemed to help.

It boosted her self-esteem a bit, but Hanako's deeper issues were neither brought up nor addressed during Lilly's route. If you only play that route, you'd think Hanako's sole problem is mere shyness.

I'm with the others...trying to be there for all the girls is unlikely to have any effect; the reason they confide in him is BECAUSE they feel Hisao is somewhat close to them and they're not merely another friendly schoolmate. But I'd like to believe that even if Hisao doesn't get involved with the girls, they'd eventually regain their footing (though for girls like Hanako, I can see it taking a very long while) simply because the universe doesn't revolve around Hisao. Hisao doesn't fix the girls, he's simply a catalyst for them to face up to their own problems. All he was was a decent guy in the right place at the right time. Surely there's more of those in Japan.

Apparently a few of you are getting the idea that I think just being friends with them will magically solve all their problems. I don't know where you're getting this, but that's not what I've been saying at all. I'm saying that if he treated the other girls as friends instead of acquaintances, he'd at least help enough to not let them lead horrible lives of misery. I mean, look at Emi's route. Misha took the time out of her day to check on her friend and it saved their relationship. If Hisao acted like that more often, they'd wind up happier, is what I'm saying. It's what I've been saying. God, we're going into page 3 of me saying the only thing you need to get over and over again and nobody gets it yet.

I get it, no worries. ^_^
It's a curious thought, how parallel is the game?

If we don't interfere, would Shizune, four months of Hisao into Rin's route, realize due to some event that she might after all see more in Shiina than her closest friend? Would we know, from how Hisao and Rin are total loners at this point? It might be, we have no way to know.
If Hisao is dating Emi, Rin never does the art gallery. This leaves her happier than her neutral ending, and we cannot truly know how to compare it to her good ending.
If Hanako's path ends in the bad ending, would Lilly leave? Hanako might lash out at her in the wake, and it'd hurt Lilly a lot, and also - probably - make her rethink the way she big sistered Hanako. It might instead of pushing her away lead to her trying again, if Hanako accepts a second attempt. That'd imply she stays in Japan. Would Akira leave, if her sister (and she'd find out!) were this troubled, losing her closest friend or looking at losing her?

It's interesting how this'd work out.
But I have to say I disagree with more cross-information. It'd make things more believable, but only on a macro-view. The Feels only work so well due to how the story hits you in well-timed intervals. Give too much extra perspective and the pace is lost.

Oddball wrote:

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Think about it; in any route that isn't her own, Lilly goes to Scotland to live a shell of a life away from those who actually care for her for the sake of a family that doesn't really care about her,

She stays until sometime around graduation in Shizune's route at least.

That's the general assumption, but I'm fairly certain All those last events in Shizune's Route occur in the late fall, with a time-skip epilogue to graduation (Just pretend the last scene comes after the credits ).

Shizune Act 4 'Grand Strategy' wrote:In just a few months, we'll be graduating.

(In the Japanese school system, graduation is in March. "A few" usually means 3-4.)

Either way, the point remains that, in Shizune's route at least, Lilly either chooses to stay, or is never presented with the choice (If you subscribe to chaos theory, even the slightest deviation from Lilly's route could result in her aunt not gettign sick. But taking Emi's route causes a famine in southeastern China, killing millions. Bastard.)

As for the larger subject, the OP seems to be missing a few key issues:

1: If you're supposed to get all your issues resolved by the end of High School, most of us here on these forums are well and truly fucked.

2: Hisao does not magically solve the girls' problems. For the most part, the "good ending" is just Hisao cleaning up the mess he caused. He grows out of it, and has a girlfriend (for the time being), and the girl grows too, but Hisao is anything but some sort of H-Game Messiah who cures them of all their ills if they just touch the hem of his dick.

3: There aren't any endings. Life goes on. The assumption of the good ends is "and they lived happily ever after," but the recurring theme in all the good ends (and most of the bad ones) is that life goes on. Things may suck, in the bad end, but it's not the end of the world.

4: Let's rewind things, and look at how the stories of the girls would go if they ended before Hisao transfers in:

Lilly is essentially abandoned by her parents, becomes extremely dependent on her sister, and develops a bitter enmity with her cousin, who used to be a close friend. BAD END!
Hanako loses her parents in a fire, is bullied by the kids in the orphanage, and finds herself in a vicious cycle where she's terribly indebted to Lilly, but can't get herself to break off the relationship, and it's only a matter of time before Lilly gets bored and discards her. BAD END!
Emi loses her father and her legs in a car accident. She is able to run again, but she's plagued by phantom pains and nightmares. She tries to find love, but doesn't want him to get close to her, so she finally pushes him away. BAD END!
Shizune has a falling out with her cousin, who used to be a close friend, and the Student Council seems to fall apart around her ankles. But she makes a new friend, who can talk to her naturally, and can help her speak to the world at large. There was a little misunderstanding where her new friend thought there was a romantic element to their relationship, but that was resolved well enough, and now they're BFFs! GOOD END?
Rin has trouble communicating with others. She has trouble even seeing who she is herself. But she finds she can express herself through painting. If only there were someone who could understand her... NEUTRAL END!

5: Finally, any implications of suicide are just that - implications. There may be some "at risk" warning signs, but not everyone who's at risk will actually go through with it.

KS isn't about Hisao "saving" the girls. It's about life being lived. Good things happen, and bad things happen, but, regardless, life goes on.

Well, Emi's and Hanako's path are also explicitly about not saving the girls.

If we don't interfere, would Shizune, four months of Hisao into Rin's route, realize due to some event that she might after all see more in Shiina than her closest friend? Would we know, from how Hisao and Rin are total loners at this point?

I don't think sexual orientation works that way.

Lilly is essentially abandoned by her parents, becomes extremely dependent on her sister, and develops a bitter enmity with her cousin, who used to be a close friend. BAD END!

Lilly stopped being extremely dependant on Akira long before Hisao transferred in. She's pretty well in control of her life by the time Act 1 rolls around.

Hanako loses her parents in a fire, is bullied by the kids in the orphanage, and finds herself in a vicious cycle where she's terribly indebted to Lilly, but can't get herself to break off the relationship, and it's only a matter of time before Lilly gets bored and discards her. BAD END!

She was actually bullied by the kids in elementary and middle school. The orphanage was the one place she was relatively safe, though she did start noticing how most other kids her age there got adopted. I also doubt Lilly'd ever discard Hanako out of boredom (or any other reason). It's unlikely the two would go and study the same subject after Yamaku, so their paths may split at some point, but Lilly sees their friendship as very legitimate.

Emi loses her father and her legs in a car accident. She is able to run again, but she's plagued by phantom pains and nightmares. She tries to find love, but doesn't want him to get close to her, so she finally pushes him away. BAD END!

This one's harder to argue. It's very likely Emi'd continue her vicious cycle of shallow relationships until someone reaches out to her in the same way Hisao does, but there's no reason to believe that could never happen.

Shizune has a falling out with her cousin, who used to be a close friend, and the Student Council seems to fall apart around her ankles. But she makes a new friend, who can talk to her naturally, and can help her speak to the world at large. There was a little misunderstanding where her new friend thought there was a romantic element to their relationship, but that was resolved well enough, and now they're BFFs! GOOD END?

I'm not certain how you can call that "resolved well enough". That last F doesn't really belong there. They'll be BFF's until the end of school year and that terrifies Misha. If it was truly resolved, the main conflict in Shizune's route would be Jigoro's random ranting. The "resolution" involved Shizune rejecting Misha's advances and moving on and Misha being rejected and not moving on. So now Misha's stuck in that agonizing "can't live with her, can't live without her"-pattern that'll eventually blow up when Misha realizes graduation is getting closer and Shizune's going to move on without her. She'll confront Shizune with that and Shizune'll be like "we'll at least have our memories here" and the two will have their falling out just like in Shizune's route. Hisao or no Hisao, their falling out will take place eventually. Their relationship is a ticking time bomb.

Shizune has a falling out with her cousin, who used to be a close friend, and the Student Council seems to fall apart around her ankles. But she makes a new friend, who can talk to her naturally, and can help her speak to the world at large. There was a little misunderstanding where her new friend thought there was a romantic element to their relationship, but that was resolved well enough, and now they're BFFs! GOOD END?

Let's fix this.

Shizune pushes Lilly away because Lilly wants to spend time helping people instead of working and ends up destroying the student council because nobody else wants to do things her way.

She makes a new friend. Shizune pushes her friend hard in order to use her as a translator.

Her friend translates for her, but it does nothing to help her actually connect with people. She says she can't talk naturally to people through a translator but doesn't like to write things down or text them. You talk to Shizune on her terms or not at all, and with how she tends to act, most people don't seem to want to bother.

Her friend falls in love with her. Shizune rejects her. Her friend completely changes the way she looks and acts in order to be closer to Shizune and basically does whatever she thinks she can in order to make Shizune like her more. Shizune doesn't like this, but doesn't do anything about it.

@ProfAllister You're reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too far into this, to the point where you're just wildly speculating. Chaos theory? Are you serious? This is a Dating Sim about a school for cripples, not Stein's;Gate.

Also, you're once again assuming the extreme of my point when I couldn't be more clear about it being "being a friend will help them" and not being "Hisao is the goddamn messiah that will solve everyone's issues completely with his wizard dick".

@Carighan It's parallel enough for them to all have their problems in other routes as well. Their problems don't just go away because Hisao isn't there (b-b-but chaos theory!).

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Still in full on "I don't care how derailed this gets my opinion has to be superior" arguer mode, I see.


There is nothing to say anyone ever will, so I don't think it's that extreme to assume so. I think it's quite hypocritical of you to call me out on not assuming enough about this right after doing exactly the opposite about the Misha thing. Once again, probably you just trying to sound right because you'd rather argue than discuss.


And then she's never depressed again? Her depression just completely goes away forever in one moment? You have no idea what you're talking about, don't even open your mouth about shit like this if you're going to keep perpetuating that "tough it up get over it" bullshit.


That is not what is shown. They never said that she got better, that's just an assumption made by you. What is shown is Misha just feeling bad about being depressed and then immediately acting like she did when she was pretending to not be depressed. Exactly the same. Immediately after she's made to feel guilty about it. This is not a hard connection to make. Also, this is the opposite of what you're saying about the other thing. You're telling me "stop taking it at face value" and then "stop not taking it at face value" in the same post. Maybe if you stopped trying to be right and started to actually tried to understand what I'm saying, you wouldn't sound like such a hypocrite.

If you're going to stay in arguer mode, don't even respond, as right now all you're trying to do is sound right at the cost of pretty much anything that could be gained from this discussion.

1) Welcome to the internet. Discussions happen here. If you see an argument about superiority, that's on you. I see a simple discussion.

2) Basic use of logic says someone will. A human life lasts for decades. The idea that nobody will ever intervene and help them in all that time is against all odds.

3) "I don't like what you said so you have no idea what you're talking about!" - Brilliant argument there. Nice job putting words in my mouth too. No, it doesn't go away forever. Depression of any degree is a fluctuating condition. But for that time, it is gone (barring speculative assumptions of the good end secretly being a bad one in disguise), which qualifies as good. And as the game ends there, that is a good end.

4) They never say she's just lapsed into a facade either. But it is the good ending which implies a good outcome for all involved. That's how this game works. Good ending > Everyone's happy > Game ends. Where exactly is there room to assume it's all bullshit and it's actually a shit ending? Whatever happens afterward, the ending shown is good. There are good endings here which is why good endings are shown. The game has good endings and everyone, Misha included, gets one. That's face value.


But, hell, screw face value for a moment. Let's look at the bigger picture and see if their post-game lives overall get good endings without Hisao. Let's say Hisao doesn't get involved with anyone:

Lilly: Would not go to Scotland. In Lilly's route, Hanako's improvement is directly driven forward by her attempts to give Hisao/Lilly space. Without Hisao, those attempts are gone, she still only has Lilly, and Lilly would not abandon Hanako under those circumstances. Good end, no Hisao.

Hanako: Remains as she always was until someone inevitably comes along and helps her improve and work past her problems (whether directly as in her route or indirectly as in Lilly's route). In Hanako's route, Lilly does end up acknowledging her overprotectiveness as a problem while in Scotland. So if she realizes it here while not in Scotland (no reason to think she wouldn't), maybe Lilly herself wises up and becomes the friend Hanako needs instead of the guardian she tolerates. Good end, no Hisao.

Shizune: Remains the same. Troubles for her only really arise when Misha's issues kick into overdrive as a result of Hisao's relationship with Shizune. Remove Hisao and she's more or less fine if not entirely content (who is?). Good end, no Hisao.

Misha: Continues on as Shizune's shadow. Maybe she improves, maybe she doesn't, but the odds are in favor of improvement so, just for a laugh, let's assume the odds are correct here. Good end, no Hisao.

Rin: Continues to ignore Nomiya and pal around with Emi. Hisao is the one who ultimately drives her toward the exhibit that leads to her breakdown. No Hisao, no exhibit. As for her communication troubles, odds are someone else will intervene in time. Good end, no Hisao.

Emi: Continues being an emotionally scarred individual until, again, someone else inevitably intervenes. Maybe Meiko or Nurse sets something up. Good end, no Hisao.

Kenji: Doesn't accidentally kill a classmate while drunk on the roof.


Now, is it guaranteed someone will intervene if Hisao doesn't? No. But humans live for many years and Hisao isn't some one-of-a-kind miracle worker. Other friendly people exist in the world. The odds are in favor of good outcomes with or without Hisao. "Shit lives for everyone Hisao doesn't have his dick in" is just a ridiculous conclusion.

Xanatos wrote: 1) Welcome to the internet. Discussions happen here. If you see an argument about superiority, that's just a problem with you. I see a simple discussion.

That's not discussion. You clearly have no intent on listening to the other person at all and are really just talking to them to be right about something. Also, "welcome to the internet" is just an excuse used by people who don't want to admit they're doing anything wrong. The internet would be a better place if people discussed instead of just insisting that their subjective opinion is better than the other person's.

Xanatos wrote:3) "I don't like what you said so you have no idea what you're talking about!" - Brilliant argument there. Nice job putting words in my mouth too. No, it doesn't go away forever. Depression of any degree is a fluctuating condition. But for that time, it is gone (barring speculative assumptions of the good end secretly being a bad one in disguise), which qualifies as good. And as the game ends there, that is a good end.

First sentence and you're already a hypocrite and acting smug about it. Is it impossible for you apply your own standards to yourself? Anyway, with both that point and the one below it, your argument is basically just "they call it a good ending so technically I'm right". You're arguing technicalities despite clearly knowing that I'm not speaking in literal terms, once again proving that you have no interest in intelligent discussion and just want to beat me in an argument.

You're actually making points below so I guess that warrants a response:

Xanatos wrote:Lilly: Would not go to Scotland. In Lilly's route, Hanako's improvement is directly driven forward by her attempts to give Hisao/Lilly space. Without Hisao, those attempts are gone, she still only has Lilly, and Lilly would not abandon Hanako under those circumstances. Good end, no Hisao.

She left at the end of the year anyway, she wouldn't have much contact with Hanako anyway. Also, she did leave in Shizune's route.

Xanatos wrote:Hanako: Remains as she always was until someone inevitably comes along and helps her improve and work past her problems (whether directly as in her route or indirectly as in Lilly's route). Good end, no Hisao.

Hisao only connected with her because of Lilly and there wouldn't be a Lilly after high school and she never showed any initiative to improve without Hisao.

Xanatos wrote:Shizune: Remains the same. Troubles for her only really arise when Misha's issues kick into overdrive as a result of Hisao's relationship with Shizune. Remove Hisao and she's more or less fine if not entirely content (who is?). Good end, no Hisao.

I agree about Shizune.

Xanatos wrote:Misha: Continues on as Shizune's shadow. Maybe she improves, maybe she doesn't, but the odds are in favor of improvement so, just for a laugh, let's assume the odds are correct here. Good end, no Hisao.

How are the odds in favor of her recovering? You're just pulling all of this out of your ass and all you're saying is "let's just assume I'm right".

Xanatos wrote:Rin: Continues to ignore Nomiya and pal around with Emi. Hisao is the one who ultimately drives her toward the exhibit that leads to her breakdown. No Hisao, no exhibit. As for her communication troubles, odds are someone else will intervene in time. Good end, no Hisao.

Apparently that was Hisao's fault, then. Never mind.

Xanatos wrote:Emi: Continues being an emotionally scarred individual until, again, someone else inevitably intervenes. Maybe Meiko or Nurse sets something up. Good end, no Hisao.

You're assuming this based off of absolutely nothing. inb4 "you can't prove me wrong therefore I'm right."

Xanatos wrote:Now, is it guaranteed someone will intervene if Hisao doesn't? No. But humans live for many years and Hisao isn't some one-of-a-kind miracle worker. The odds are heavily in favor of it. "Shit lives for everyone Hisao doesn't have his dick in" is just a ridiculous conclusion.

Even if someone does come in later, Hisao could still help by caring and being there for his friends, which he wasn't.