Katawa Shoujo Forums

Xanatos wrote:There were no footjobs.

That is a criticism for which I am more than happy it exists. Besides, weren't all the inadvertent innuendoes she made enough? I'm sure fanart will eventually make those a reality anyway heh...

But it's not that strange to dispense criticism upon the thing you love the most (Rin's route in my case). I figure that so long as I do my best not to come across as a raging jackass about expressing that criticism, then providing it is more often than not worth a lot more than praise. Anyone can praise what they like and criticise what they don't like, which is unfortunate...for me it's always been the other way around. Pick away at the thing you love and know (also remembering to embrace the faults and mistakes of your most beloved thing) and try to find some common ground in the thing you don't.

People (and by people I really mean myself ) can do this very easily, because they can be aware of the truth that we never really love a work of art on a rational level. Oh sure, we desperately try to rationalize our reasons for liking it, making it only appear that we 'objectively' love/hate the best/worst thing we could and validate our egoes through that rationalization...but to me that always comes off as BS and making excuses for what you like/dislike most of the time. Because if a story has flaws in it for most other people, and yet you still can't help but relate to it the most, then you'll still consider that story to be the best one, no matter how popular it might or might not be with everyone else. That's why I can easily say that even though Rin's route had, from my rational perspective, the greatest number of grammar and typo errors, from my emotional perspective (which, in the end, is always what counts most for art) it spoke to me the most.

That's why I really don't think there is a 'worst' or 'best' route in KS so to speak. There's only the question of which route is worst or best specifically for you. And the reasons provided for these two extremes (without any pretention of being 'objectively true' and whatnot) are always more fun and interesting to read and examine rather than the rationalizations for why they're 'the best' reasons or somesuch.

This might be strange praise to receive, but I actually think it's fantastic that you can criticize your (tied for) favourite route so unbiasedly. It's a skill I should probably work to acquire. I'd honestly be too biased to come up with any decent criticisms of Rin's route. (That's not an invitation to do it for me, mind.)

Well, I like her character because she's not portrayed as someone that's hard to get along with. She's incredibly challenging and quite playful about it a lot of the time, but aside from that, which can admittedly be off-putting to some, she's a character that is basically summed up by saying "do your share of the work you agreed to do, be honest, and we'll get along just fine," and that's also how she herself acts. There's no drama on her route by not trying to make herself understood or by not having her be open about something, because - she doesn't do that sort of thing. She's straightforward. That's exactly the type of person I respect.

I also like her route because it focuses on all these other things. There's more to the school year - and beyond - than just her and Hisao sparking a relationship. And unless the player chooses to have Hisao cause it, there's no unneeded drama between the two of them either.

The unfortunate truth is that it also takes focus away from their relationship, and for much of the middle of her route, there's really nothing about it at all, which I found a bit jarring.

As for why I can criticize things I like - well, I try to listen to what others say, and I judge for myself whether or not they've got any truth or reasonable position behind it. Even if I don't always agree with someone, I can usually see where they're coming from...

Unfortunately, that trait also tends to make me a bit of a sucker when someone decides to tell a plausible lie about something, so it may not be so fantastic.

she's a character that is basically summed up by saying "do your share of the work you agreed to do, be honest, and we'll get along just fine," and that's also how she herself acts.

I don't see her character that way at all. She is not a very honest person at all. She frequently lies and manipulates others.

She doesn't want you to do "your share" of the work. She wants you to do "more." No matter what people do, she pushes them to do more than that.

At the same time though, she doesn't do everything she's supposed to. Misha openly tells you that they usually just make up their after after festival reports, and often the amount of work she says they need to do isn't doesn't always seem to quite match up with what the trio ends up doing.

It seems that setting forth a good example and getting things done isn't as important to her and making others think she's setting a good example and getting things done.

I wouldn't say she's straightforward either. She gives that impression because she has to choose her words carefully, but when she finally opens up to Hisao, she admits that she can't really talk to people (and not just because she's deaf) and her whole thing about wanting to be a leader is falls flat when you realizes that she doesn't have any real goal to lead to.

Basically, she's a person that cannot communicate with others, doesn't understand people, and wants to somehow prove to the world that she's not worthless. However the very wa she tries to do them is what pushes most people away from her.

When I first played her route, I thought of School Days, so I chose to comfort Misha. I expected Shizune to be all yandere and stuff, but sadly that never happened.

I don't see her character that way at all. She is not a very honest person at all. She frequently lies and manipulates others.

She doesn't want you to do "your share" of the work. She wants you to do "more." No matter what people do, she pushes them to do more than that.

At the same time though, she doesn't do everything she's supposed to. Misha openly tells you that they usually just make up their after after festival reports, and often the amount of work she says they need to do isn't doesn't always seem to quite match up with what the trio ends up doing.

It seems that setting forth a good example and getting things done isn't as important to her and making others think she's setting a good example and getting things done.

Opposing character interpretation, maybe, but here goes.

I know she does manipulate people to some degree, but usually over very minor things. I don't remember her ever really lying outright about anything, either. Misleading, sure, but again, minor things.

I know she pushes people to do more, but that's her trying to get the best effort out of people. And she does it to herself, too. I never remember her slacking off in getting work done unless she's doing something like grabbing the drinks/food while Hisao and Misha keep chipping away at something, either. And that was less slacking off than being the one willing to pay for it. And, while Misha might say they make up their reports - I'd doubt that's what Shizune would actually want to be doing, and more a factor of "well, we're falling asleep, let's just get this done so we can actually sleep in a bed and not on a desk."

I don't see how you can see her character as someone who pushes others to do more while not doing more herself. At all.

the thing is not that her route is bad per se, but that it's inferior to all the others

it had the best potential, because HIsao changes for the better much more so than any other route (while this is arguable, i think most agree Hisao is the best off after Emi and Shizune's routes) and Misha allowed for some potential drama (or maybe harem ending). however HIdadeki and Jigoro, while Jigoro is kind of funny at times, seemed more like a waste of space due to them not really providing much character development (Hidadeki is just an aloof brother, Jigoro the asshole dad). i think if they were just not even brought up at all it would have made the route seem less like it was dragging on. Shizune herself also doesn't seem to get much development, she is pretty much the same even after Misha cuts her hair and tempts HIsao.

or maybe it's cause i like MIsha more than Shizune. i dunno.

I think it's a given that this route is not for everyone. Through different discussions and interpretations, many has come to agree that Shizune is pretty much the 'love interest of the intellectuals' and it takes often a lot more concentration and analysis to fully grasp her character and her route. Most who judge something by the cover usually see her as 'manipulative', 'unsociable' and what not while others who actually work their way would interpret it differently.

It's similar to how I see Lilly as a lying scumbag who can't face her own problems and ran away from it at any chance she sees.

If I am to interpret her route, the family trip is where she opens up and speaks to Hisao "I have known you and trusted you enough to take you this far; this is my family, and I welcome you into it."
Also, there's a number of cultural references in Shizune's route (such as when she made Hisao her bento, meeting the parents, etc.) that is uncommon in the west, so it's normal for most to miss it. Her character--to me--is that of a caring individual that is often misunderstood for her inability to communicate.


This might be slightly weird, but I kinda' see KS girls in a different light sometimes.
Emi - People who are attracted to her are often those who need a 'push' or supportive partner. Can be considered to be a highly independant individual. (hence her not having a leg and the prosthetics)
Rin - Those who feel the need to reach out their true potential, yet lack that confidence to do so (hence not having arms)
Hanako - People who are enclosed, shy, and unable to open themselves in fear of being hated (hence her scar)
Shizune - Those who are unable to express or voice themselves vocally, yet cares deeply for others around them and is often misunderstood. Can be considered stubborn too. (hence her deaf-muteness)
Lilly - Those who prefers to turn a 'blind eye' to their own problem and focus their attention on others in order to feel 'accomplished', often working in lengths to make sure that their problem 'doesn't exist in the first place'-like feel for their own security (hence the blindness)

...though in a more "blunt" manner, I'd say Lilly is more of 'those who see things on the outside but are blind on the inside'.

Megumeru wrote:This might be slightly weird, but I kinda' see KS girls in a different light sometimes.
Emi - People who are attracted to her are often those who need a 'push' or supportive partner (hence her not having a leg)
Rin - Those who feel the need to reach out their true potential, yet lack that confidence to do so (hence not having arms)
Hanako - People who are enclosed, shy, and unable to open themselves in fear of being hated (hence her scar)
Shizune - Those who are unable to express or voice themselves vocally, yet cares deeply for others around them and is often misunderstood. Can be considered stubborn too. (hence her deaf-muteness)
Lilly - Those who prefers to turn a 'blind eye' to their own problem and focus their attention on others in order to feel 'accomplished', often working in lengths to make sure that their problem 'doesn't exist in the first place'-like feel for their own security (hence the blindness)

...though in a more "blunt" manner, I'd say Lilly is more of 'those who see things on the outside but are blind on the inside'.

I think you're right about most girls, but not about Lilly. I tend to focus on my own problems (Without getting anything done) and maybe help others if I have the time. Still, Lilly is my favorite.
Hanako is second, and I feel at least some of the things you wrote fits me, but kinda opposite, sometimes, maybe... *Confused*

This might be slightly weird, but I kinda' see KS girls in a different light sometimes.
Emi - People who are attracted to her are often those who need a 'push' or supportive partner (hence her not having a leg)
Rin - Those who feel the need to reach out their true potential, yet lack that confidence to do so (hence not having arms)
Hanako - People who are enclosed, shy, and unable to open themselves in fear of being hated (hence her scar)
Shizune - Those who are unable to express or voice themselves vocally, yet cares deeply for others around them and is often misunderstood. Can be considered stubborn too. (hence her deaf-muteness)
Lilly - Those who prefers to turn a 'blind eye' to their own problem and focus their attention on others in order to feel 'accomplished', often working in lengths to make sure that their problem 'doesn't exist in the first place'-like feel for their own security (hence the blindness)

...though in a more "blunt" manner, I'd say Lilly is more of 'those who see things on the outside but are blind on the inside'.

You just can't help but let your blatant anti-Lilly-bias ruin a perfectly insightful paragraph, can ya?

It's kinda ironic you suggest Lilly's actions are rooted in insecurity issues, since she's the only one out of the main 6 who's genuinely confident. She doesn't really need to focus on other people's problems in order to feel accomplished, because (at least until her parents turn her life upside-down by summoning her to Scotland) she has her stuff together quite well...again, the only main girl in the cast who can sincerely make that claim. She's well-liked at school, has lots of friends, seems to get good grades, has a strong bond with her sister, knows exactly what she wants in her future and is at ease with the limits of her disability. She doesn't really have much to feel insecure about. Her nurturing behavior isn't to make up for hidden insecurities, it's simply her personality. (unlike Hisao's worrying in Hanako's route which WAS a coping mechanism)

Lilly's main flaw, IMHO, is pride. She's a very proud person and while she's secure in asking for help with stuff that she can't do because it requires eyesight to pull off, she has a hard time acknowledging she has trouble with stuff that has nothing to do with lack of vision. It's the reason she won't let Akira, Hisao or Hanako in on her dilemma regarding her parents' summoning. It's the reason she takes her inability to get Hanako out of her shell on her own as a bit of a personal failure. It's the reason she can't bring herself to back down or walk away from a fight with Shizune, despite being perfectly aware that Shizune likes to provoke (and draw out) hostile confrontations with her.

A more objective addition to the list might be:

Lilly - Those who feel most at ease when someone is watching out for them. (Lilly watches over other people despite her lack of sight)

(I realize your Shizune-option is blatantly biased too, but I don't feel like tinkering with it)

Guest Poster wrote:Lilly - Those who feel most at ease when someone is watching out for them. (Lilly watches over other people despite her lack of sight)

That's better. Now it sounds like me .^^

OtakuNinja wrote:When I first played her route, I thought of School Days, so I chose to comfort Misha. I expected Shizune to be all yandere and stuff, but sadly that never happened.

There was a really dark route for Shizune that got scrapped but could have easily gone that way.

Xanatos wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:When I first played her route, I thought of School Days, so I chose to comfort Misha. I expected Shizune to be all yandere and stuff, but sadly that never happened.

There was a really dark route for Shizune that got scrapped but could have easily gone that way.

I remember reading an early possible Hanako ending where she went psycho and murdered everyone. Was that the plan for Shizune too?

Guest Poster wrote: You just can't help but let your blatant anti-Lilly-bias ruin a perfectly insightful paragraph, can ya?

Hey, it's an interpretation not a direct hard-line down-to-the-ground facts.

Guest Poster wrote:It's kinda ironic you suggest Lilly's actions are rooted in insecurity issues, since she's the only one out of the main 6 who's genuinely confident. She doesn't really need to focus on other people's problems in order to feel accomplished, because (at least until her parents turn her life upside-down by summoning her to Scotland) she has her stuff together quite well...again, the only main girl in the cast who can sincerely make that claim. She's well-liked at school, has lots of friends, seems to get good grades, has a strong bond with her sister, knows exactly what she wants in her future and is at ease with the limits of her disability. She doesn't really have much to feel insecure about. Her nurturing behavior isn't to make up for hidden insecurities, it's simply her personality. (unlike Hisao's worrying in Hanako's route which WAS a coping mechanism)

I have my roots on why I see her that way, starting way back on the infamous 'cold war' scene, the confession, her problems with her family, and her second trip to Scotland. Though sincerely, this isn't the thread to post about so shoot me a PM if you're interested on how I came up with the conclusion and let's discuss about it there.

But really, I am not shooting directly at Lilly's character but merely interpreting it based on her plot, character, disability, and how it could interpret directly to Hisao or the PC (player character).

A more objective addition to the list might be:

Guest Poster wrote:Lilly - Those who feel most at ease when someone is watching out for them. (hence the blindness)

Indeed. Lilly does feel most at ease when someone else is watching her back. Again, it is interpretation.

so we can leave this like we always do: You keep your rose-tinted glasses while I grab my shades and the flashy-thingy.

Oddball wrote:

Xanatos wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:When I first played her route, I thought of School Days, so I chose to comfort Misha. I expected Shizune to be all yandere and stuff, but sadly that never happened.

There was a really dark route for Shizune that got scrapped but could have easily gone that way.

I remember reading an early possible Hanako ending where she went psycho and murdered everyone. Was that the plan for Shizune too?

I think the one I heard about Hanako is the 'muffin in the oven'-ending where the entire story went dark with Hanako carrying...well, let's just say she's a mother.

The Shizune one involves Misha dying due to a car accident and Shizune committing suicide due to depression. Though, that's what I heard

The Shizune one involves Misha dying due to a car accident and Shizune committing suicide due to depression. Though, that's what I heard

I heard that Misha was supposed to die in an earlier version, but I didn't know Shizune was supposed to commit suicide over it.

I think the one I heard about Hanako is the 'muffin in the oven'-ending where the entire story went dark with Hanako carrying...well, let's just say she's a mother.

No. The one I'm talking abut is a lot darker than that.
Apparently an earlier plan was that you could actually switch routes mid-game, and if you started off with Hanako but abandoned her and went ater Rin instead, Hanako eventually flips out, kidnaps and murders Rin, and I think a few other people, all while cackling like some kind of supervillian, and ends up killing Hisao as well.

Oddball wrote:

The Shizune one involves Misha dying due to a car accident and Shizune committing suicide due to depression. Though, that's what I heard

I heard that Misha was supposed to die in an earlier version, but I didn't know Shizune was supposed to commit suicide over it.

I think the one I heard about Hanako is the 'muffin in the oven'-ending where the entire story went dark with Hanako carrying...well, let's just say she's a mother.

No. The one I'm talking abut is a lot darker than that.
Apparently an earlier plan was that you could actually switch routes mid-game, and if you started off with Hanako but abandoned her and went ater Rin instead, Hanako eventually flips out, kidnaps and murders Rin, and I think a few other people, all while cackling like some kind of supervillian, and ends up killing Hisao as well.

So much [citation needed].