Katawa Shoujo Forums

ravenlord wrote:The key is each girl's handicap is how they deal with it. Emi runs with prosethics, Hanako hides with books, Lilly sees with her fingers.

Nope.
We all know how Lily deals with her handicap..

ravenlord wrote:

metalangel wrote:

ravenlord wrote:The key is each girl's handicap is how they deal with it. Emi runs with prosethics, Hanako hides with books, Lilly sees with her fingers, Rin paints with her feet. The cut scenes all allude to that.

Shizune's handicap is communication, but her sigining doesn't help with that. He lack of communication isn't because of a lack of voice and hearing, it is because of a lack of empathy and understanding. She uses her eyes and she uses paper during her cg, but the point is that she deals with her "handicap" by simply her being her, and only doing what she knows how to do best. What we see in the CG is Misha and Hasio being the ones to make the attempt to close the gap with her, and not the other way around, because that's just the way Shizune is. The consequences of that limitation is what constitutes the climax of act 4.

How else can Shizune deal with her handicap apart from writing notes and using an interpreter?

Don't make me add you to my ignore list . . .

Seeing as his Avatar and signature both contain Shizune, I doubt he's trolling. You seem to jump the gun on the ignore list a bit.

*cue waiting to be added to ignore list*

There's a very simple reason for that.
Animation takes up a lot of time, and Katawa Shoujo was built on a budget only slightly higher than "Fuck all." They didn't have the resources to add an animated sign language conversation with Shizune.

Actually that does bring up one thing that bugged me, Shizune's dialogue sprites rarely have her hands visible or in a position where she can sign.

Go take a look at old Grid1 if you want to see attempts at depicting sign language through sprites.

Hint: in the end, we decided against it for a reason.

Silentcook wrote:Go take a look at old Grid1 if you want to see attempts at depicting sign language through sprites.

Hint: in the end, we decided against it for a reason.

I've played Grid1. Let me back 'cook up on this and say that it was a very very good reason.

Pseudogenesis wrote:Seeing as his Avatar and signature both contain Shizune, I doubt he's trolling. You seem to jump the gun on the ignore list a bit.

He is trolling. I flat out explained in my post, word for word, exactly how she deals with her handicap "apart from writing notes and using an interpreter". He asked again anyway, so assuming he is trolling actually gives him the benifit of the doubt. The alternative is that he didn't read the post before replying, or he doesn't understand English. You be the judge.

ravenlord wrote:

Pseudogenesis wrote:Seeing as his Avatar and signature both contain Shizune, I doubt he's trolling. You seem to jump the gun on the ignore list a bit.

He is trolling. I flat out explained in my post, word for word, exactly how she deals with her handicap "apart from writing notes and using an interpreter". He asked again anyway, so assuming he is trolling actually gives him the benifit of the doubt. The alternative is that he didn't read the post before replying, or he doesn't understand English. You be the judge.

Do you consider what I'm saying trolling? I feel I'm addressing many of the same points he is.

Somebody that disagrees with you or doesn't see things the same way you do isn't automatically trolling.

ravenlord wrote:

Pseudogenesis wrote:Seeing as his Avatar and signature both contain Shizune, I doubt he's trolling. You seem to jump the gun on the ignore list a bit.

He is trolling. I flat out explained in my post, word for word, exactly how she deals with her handicap "apart from writing notes and using an interpreter". He asked again anyway, so assuming he is trolling actually gives him the benifit of the doubt. The alternative is that he didn't read the post before replying, or he doesn't understand English. You be the judge.

You complained that she deals with her handicap by 'just being her', as if her attempts at using sign and note writing were somehow insufficient. I was curious as to what else she should could do to communicate apart from those two things. You responded by suggesting that I either don't speak English, didn't bother reading your post, or am some sort of mental defective.

Assuming you haven't yet made good on your threat to ignore me yet, I'd actually like to discuss it as per my original message. Yes, Shizune has communication issues, but the question is whether part of the fact the way she's become 'the way she is' (specifically, her reluctance to use notes out of feeling of frustration and isolation) is because of communication issues or whether they're down to the parts of her personality that aren't directly influenced by her deafness.

Now Hisao and Misha already know how to write then they meet her, so you'd think that writing things down would be easier, but Shizune doesn't like doing things that way so they have to go with the option that SHE wants.

She seems incapable of even trying to meet them halfway. Maybe I'm remember it wrong, but I can't recall her being extremely happy and grateful for either of them to go through that hassle in order to talk to her. She might be happy that it's more efficient, but she doesn't seem grateful that they'd go through the trouble for her.

That's because Shizune is a type of tsundere - she's not really the type to get all in front of everyone. She shows her appreciation in different ways - such as the fact that Misha and Hisao end up being her closest friends. The same two people who happened to learn sign language to speak to her. Coincidence? Hardly.

The key thing to remember with Shizune is that for her, sign language isn't just communication - it's speech. For her, signing with her hands is the same thing as any of us talking with our mouths - the most basic form of interpersonal communcation, and the most intimate.

The reason Shizune has trouble establishing meaningful connections with people is because she can't 'speak' to them. Most folks don't know sign language offhand, after all. The situation is very similar to, say, a Japanese person moving to America, and being unable to speak to anyone there because nobody knows Japanese.

In theory, this is a simple problem for a deaf person to get around - they may not speak or hear the verbal language, but they still *understand* it it written form. They could pass notes like Hisao did at first, or use text messaging or the Internet and such. But the fact remains that these aren't the same as actually *speaking* to someone - interacting with another person face-to-face, hearing the intonations and subtle emphasis in their words, reading their body language. As most Internet hermits (like me) would attest to, there's a world of difference between the two, and it's that difference that makes it so hard for Shizune to be understood.

Without sign language, Shizune can only communicate with other people indirectly - through the written word, or through Misha (who, as Hisao notes repeatedly, is more or less incapable of delivering Shizune's words on any other setting than 'boisterously cheerful'). She can 'speak' about her work on the student council - but she can't say it with the firey passion she has for the job in a way other people can parse. She can try to empathize with people, but they can't hear the sympathy in her voice. She can't hear the spirit-lifting "Wahaha~!" of a friend's laughter, or the cracking of their voice as they struggle not to cry, or the telltale hesitation and uncertainty when someone is lying to her. It's like having a psychological brick wall between her and other people - she never really feels *close* to anyone when such a fundamental social gap exists between them.

That's why sign language is so important to her - and why Misha and Hisao are important to her as well, even though she might come right out and admit it. They both took the time and effort to learn how to 'speak' to her, in her own language - her own voice. Sign language might still lack some of the subtleties of the spoken word, but for Shizune it's like having someone climb over the brick wall just to talk to her - and that means a lot.

If she won't, you have to wonder why. Is she embarrassed by the sound of her voice? It would fit the character. That would mean she values her own pride more than the ability to communicate with others.

It's not just her - deaf people the world over share that sentiment.

The problem with speech is that, for a deaf-from-an-early-age person, it's extremely difficult to do it properly. Sure, they can try and learn, and they might even become passable at it - but because they can't hear their own voice, they have no idea if they're doing it *right*. Spoken language depends as much on intonation as it does the words themselves, and when you can't hear such things to understand how they work or how to do it yourself, mastering them becomes next to impossible.

Most deaf-from-early-age people who learn how to speak end up sounding *very* conspicuous, and not necessarily in a good way - it's easy for someone hearing them and not knowing their disability to mistake them for being learning-impaired or otherwise mentally deficient. Obviously, this is *not* something deaf people want, Shizune in particular - she's a smart, driven young woman who wants to be taken seriously, not garner pity. Sign language is a way for people like her to have their own form of inter-personal communication that they can master and wield with confidence, rather than being forced to use a method that unfairly emphasizes their disability.

DrNonookee wrote:That's because Shizune is a type of tsundere

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kuudere

@DrNonookee: Luckily I'm one of those deaf-from-early-age people that can speak (and hear) reasonably well thanks to my Cochlear Implant and hearing aid. But that goes exclusively for Dutch in not too noisy environments. As you probably have noticed, my written English skills is not that bad... But speaking or understanding spoken English? Uuuughhh.... I can understand it a bit when I have subtitles on with an English TV show (and I have logged hundreds of hours watching English spoken/subbed TV shows), but without subtitles it is just too hard to understand because of the differences in pronunciation (Dutch is in that aspect the same as romaji (the Romanization of Japanese, basically Japanese written with the a-z alphabet): It is written almost phonetically for real Dutch words).
Anyway that speaking/hearing skill? I wore hearing aids from the age of 5 onwards, I think (not sure... perhaps a bit earlier even). When I was 11 I got my Cochlear Implant. All that time, I communicated more in spoken Dutch than in Sign Language and I wouldn't have changed it. For me personally, I rather have the difficulties in conversations but being able to talk directly with friends without an interpreter than have 'perfect' comprehension of the conversation by knowing Sign Language, because I don't live in the Deaf world, like how Shizune is the only Deaf person in the class (as far as I am aware, that is) and not having real contact with other Deaf. You still do notice it in my voice that I'm not a Hearing person but it isn't horrible or such AFAIK... Most people can understand me reasonably well (perhaps not initially when they have to get used to my voice).

But that doesn't mean that I hate Sign Language (quite the opposite, I'm doing a minor for it in the coming Academic year). It is just that I've been on the harder path all my life but it comes with IMO a better reward than the easy path. Now I'm going to combine the paths and create my own third path, being able to speak Dutch and being able to Sign, where Sign Language will hopefully increase my possibilities internationally for being independent by using an interpreter. Sign Language just is such a cheap way to talk if you don't live in a Deaf community IMO. While it is easier for you, it creates that barrier that you were talking about. With Sign Language you distance yourself from your surroundings and indeed be forced to conversations without intonation (though I have to say, Misha isn't a qualified interpreter. Most interpreters will try to convey in both directions the emotion that you can see, towards the Deaf person by facial expressions and slight differences in signs, towards the Hearing person by changing the voice/tone depending on how the signs are done... But I don't have a lot of experience with Sign interpreters so don't take my word for granted).


Realistically speaking, I'm quite like Shizune. All up till university, I've never had a big group of people amongst my peers that I really knew or regularly talked to (just like how Shizune has only Misha and Hisao, occasionally talking with others but not being friends). I don't want an interpreter to talk for me either when I can talk for myself. Hell, on school I only used my interpreters for the lessons (not the breaks) and for circumstances where I know that I cannot do it myself such as the graduation celebrations (when I received my high school certifications I had all my regular interpreters there, lol, only one was signing for me though... I'm not a sadist ). So yes, I think I do share that pride.


If I were to have a deaf kid that could hear with hearing aids and/or Cochlear Implant, I'd focus on my kid learning to speak and hear too. Not because I want to deny him an enjoyable youth but because I truly believe that being able to speak and hear is simply the best option I have to enjoy life as it stands now. I would also make sure that he knows Sign Language, so he can use an interpreter when needed... But I truly believe that he needs to be able to make friends regardless of whether they're hearing or deaf and being able to converse with them without barriers.

*Sigh* It is becoming a wall of text... I just feel strongly about this, I guess...

Xanatos wrote:

DrNonookee wrote:That's because Shizune is a type of tsundere

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kuudere

Thank you. That's the word I was looking for, although I couldn't remember it at the time. There are so many types of -deres out there that it's hard to keep track of them all.

Although I'd argue that even this term doesn't quite describe Shizune properly. 'Tsundere' refers to an argumentative or abusive girl, while 'kuudere' refers to a stoic one. Shizune doesn't really seem to be either - while she does display some tsun-like qualities when upset, most of the time her default mood seems more 'playfully confrontational' than anything else. It's *like* a tsundere, but without the mean-spirited-ness...quite the contrary, it seems more positive than anything else ("Come on, show me what you're made of! Be a man!" ).

Is there a Japanese word for "spirited competitor" or the like? If so, I vote that it be -dereified so we have a proper term for our favorite bespectacled firecracker.

If I were to have a deaf kid that could hear with hearing aids and/or Cochlear Implant, I'd focus on my kid learning to speak and hear too. Not because I want to deny him an enjoyable youth but because I truly believe that being able to speak and hear is simply the best option I have to enjoy life as it stands now. I would also make sure that he knows Sign Language, so he can use an interpreter when needed... But I truly believe that he needs to be able to make friends regardless of whether they're hearing or deaf and being able to converse with them without barriers.

Well, I can understand that, to a certain degree. And I agree, if it's *possible* for a deaf person to learn to speak and/or understand spoken language to a reasonable degree, it's probably a good idea - it never hurts to have an extra tool in your communication arsenal. I was referring more to 'absolute deaf' people - those who can't hear at all, or for whom hearing aids or the like aren't possible (or desired). Shizune is one (at least, as far as I know...I don't recall any mention of her ever having or using a hearing aid), and for people like her learning to speak would be both extremely difficult and potentially embarassing.

Ultimately, though, I don't think it's even the whole "speech vs. sign language" thing at all. Shizune's problem is more the fact that her deafness robs her of what would otherwise be a natural and integral part of inter-personal relationships for most normal human beings. Even if she did learn to compensate by *any* means (sign language, learning to speak and read lips, etc.), that sense of alienation - that feeling of being inherently 'different', socially-speaking, in such a fundamental way - is the sort of thing that sticks with you and is very hard to shake. I know this from experience - I'm a shy, introverted fellow, and part of the reason I don't make friends easily is because I feel alienated from more social people because of it. It's not to say the person doesn't *want* to reach out to others - it's just hard to feel like you belong when there's this nagging feeling that you're not on the same level playing field as everyone else. This would be especially true for someone as driven as Shizune - she'd be fundamentally upset that she can't naturally communicate with people and has to settle for 'imperfect' methods like signing or writing at all.

DrNonookee wrote:Ultimately, though, I don't think it's even the whole "speech vs. sign language" thing at all. Shizune's problem is more the fact that her deafness robs her of what would otherwise be a natural and integral part of inter-personal relationships for most normal human beings. Even if she did learn to compensate by *any* means (sign language, learning to speak and read lips, etc.), that sense of alienation - that feeling of being inherently 'different', socially-speaking, in such a fundamental way - is the sort of thing that sticks with you and is very hard to shake. I know this from experience - I'm a shy, introverted fellow, and part of the reason I don't make friends easily is because I feel alienated from more social people because of it. It's not to say the person doesn't *want* to reach out to others - it's just hard to feel like you belong when there's this nagging feeling that you're not on the same level playing field as everyone else. This would be especially true for someone as driven as Shizune - she'd be fundamentally upset that she can't naturally communicate with people and has to settle for 'imperfect' methods like signing or writing at all.

I know what you mean. That is what I was referring to with my school years until university. The number of people I regularly talked to as some form of friend? That was at most 4 at any given time, I think. I didn't really set out to significantly change that, to get on the same level playing field. That was my mistake all those years, in hindsight. I was the loner, because I acted like it. That is what I changed in university from the beginning and now I have a group of people I regularly talk to, people are talking to me much quicker... But I indeed didn't have the disadvantage of Shizune to be able to directly communicate without interpreters (even though I practiced YEARS upon YEARS on that skill since I was small). That is why I'd raise my kid with speech if he can hear somehow. That is why I'd deny him the opportunity to choose for himself whether to learn to hear and talk until he is old enough to truly realize the consequences, because I don't want to throw away the natural learning stages that occur in our brains nor to start at zero if he seriously decides to start (because believe me, it is very discouraging starting from zero. I've experienced how difficult and long the road of learning to hear is thanks to getting a Cochlear Implant and the only reason that I truly kept going and am as skilled in hearing and talking as I am right now is that I always depended on hearing, not on signing). I don't know what I'll do though if he is deaf in a way that hearing aids and Cochlear Implants won't help (that pretty much requires brain 'damage' or the hearing nerve being damaged, as a Cochlear Implant circumvents the ear canal and cochlea (and everything in between)). I guess in that case he'd be lucky that I learned Sign Language But whether I'd send him off to a Deaf school or a regular school, that would be a serious dilemma for me.

A while back, I looked into what kind of LGBT community Misha could tap into, and came up with close to nothing. Shizune might have had similar luck while growing up:

Also with each country or group of people and it’s culture, there is a difference between the young and the old. In Japan’s Deaf culture a few years ago, following High School graduation, Deaf children would search out a group of Deaf on their own. But now, with the pressure of going to a top-tier High School (in Japan, High School and College’s importance is reverse to that of America), Deaf schools are seen as non-Academic, and thus entices the younger Deaf generation to go to a hearing institution. “...[K]ids go to mainstream schools and might never meet a deaf person” (Monaghan, 2003). But perhaps most surprising of all is that some of Japan’s Deaf are isolating themselves: “predominantly young people identify as hard of hearing or hearing impaired...over ‘deaf’ and do not join deaf groups. Why are younger deaf avoiding the traditional deaf organizations” (Monaghan, 2003)? The Tokyo Association of the Hearing Disabled, formerly known as the Tokyo Association of the Deaf, changed it’s name solely to attract the youth that did not refer to his or herself as Deaf (Monaghan, 2003). It is important to note that not every Japanese youth has denounced, or failed to identify, with Deaf. What is known as U-Turn Deaf, some are returning to Deaf schools because it is where their friends are and ultimately how they identify themselves (Monaghan, 2003). Or in the case of “Deaf Shock,” people who never identified themselves as Deaf are connected with Deaf groups and are harshly awakened to find a part of their identity they did not know they had (Monaghan, 2003).

- Japanese Deaf Culture

One of the essays from the first one's bibliography goes into how Japanese culture would affect the use of video phones:

Harumi’s reaction was shock at the idea that interpreters she did not know would be able to see into her house. She explained that in Japan the distinction between private space and public space is very strongly felt and expressed doubt that Video Relay Services could ever come to Japan as she thought Deaf people would never be willing to allow strangers to see into the sacred private space of their homes. So despite the many similarities we identified in Deaf/hearing interactions in our two countries, the power exerted by specific cultural values still illuminated the defining differences between us.

It wouldn't be appropriate to accept these as gospel, seeing as how they were just the first things I could Google, but Deaf Culture being a more recent development in Japan might be relevant to what we are discussing here. Would Shizune have not gotten a cochlear implant because of the nature of her deafness? Or would have she not gotten one because of just not having access to/knowing about such a thing at a young age? Would it have been embarrassing for Jigoro to look into? I mean, Jigoro's in the generation that might view something as practical as a video phone as invasive.

So many questions, swimming around my head.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:
It wouldn't be appropriate to accept these as gospel, seeing as how they were just the first things I could Google, but Deaf Culture being a more recent development in Japan might be relevant to what we are discussing here. Would Shizune have not gotten a cochlear implant because of the nature of her deafness? Or would have she not gotten one because of just not having access to/knowing about such a thing at a young age? Would it have been embarrassing for Jigoro to look into? I mean, Jigoro's in the generation that might view something as practical as a video phone as invasive.

So many questions, swimming around my head.

CIs aren't a panacea, they don't work for everyone, though I'd bet on Jigoro having investigated them as part of his attempts to 'fix' Shizune. There is a part in the story where we discover that Shizune doesn't like using her phone, or am I mistaken? That's interesting stuff you found, however.