Katawa Shoujo Forums

It's less that her bad end comes from nowhere, and more that your decisions out of those two choices will set up how Hisao acts, too, not just Hanako. If you opt not to go out to the city with Hanako - i.e. not to spend time with her - worrying that she won't be able to deal with it, it turns up the dial on Hisao's overprotectiveness, and it also means that Hanako's shell isn't peeled away a bit more. I'd get into more detail on that but other posters have covered it nicely... Basically, it's subtle, for both characters, but it does influence how they treat each other later. Sometimes all it takes is the right (or wrong) conversation to subtly change the way you feel about a friend.
Then, of course, Hisao won't make a move on Hanako no matter what you do. He could arguably make a move on her some time after the neutral ending, with Lilly's prodding, or perhaps Hanako herself would make that move (I think Hisao's chances of taking the initiative would be higher in this case; Lilly's clearly aware that she's crushing on him, which he doesn't really know for sure)... but the story doesn't go long enough to see if that happens.
So rather than trying to max out her Affection stat for Hisao so she'll be receptive to an advance (isn't that how it can work in a lot of games?), you have to get her to advance on him. Which is the twist to her section of this game. White-knighting her or throwing affection at her like you're trying to get to the Woohoo phase on a neighbor in the Sims (or, well, many other games) gets you one of the worse endings. It's when he respects her enough to not overprotect her, when he respects her enough to let her be alone when she wants to be alone, and when she worries that she's done too good a job of keeping some distance on Hisao, that she makes the move on him.

She's not meant to be as simple as an average video game love (or sex) interest. She's much more of a trap for those kinds of people.

Yandere Hanako is the worse fucking idea I've ever read for a character. The fuck was 4LS thinking at the time?

Anyway, can somebody tell me why people blame Hisao for Hanako's bad ending despite the fact you decide the outcome? Am I missing out or something or am I just retarded for thinking like that?

People blame Hisao because salvaging a friendship, and even a romantic relationship, is hardly impossible under those circumstances. Difficult, yes, especially the latter, but there are honestly much worse fights in your average friendship than one person yelling at another to "stop babying me, I hate you". The problem is that while the player might have considered that route, Hisao himself is pretty disgusted by her behavior at that point. And he's got some reason to be - while he was being a pushy moron about it that day, a good 98% of her observed behavior prior to that day indicates that she isn't as independent as she actually turns out to be. She shut him out completely, and when he was worried about it and showed it, she blew up at him rather than try to explain that she just doesn't want to be babied. Her behavior was the type of thing to make people worry, and when he showed how worried he was, well.
Not that she doesn't have reason to be angry in that ending, but Hisao didn't deserve how she treated him. And he is well aware of that. Unfortunately, he's not able to be understanding enough to forgive that. Being ditched by his friends after the first couple weeks in the hospital can't help that mentality either... he probably sees her behavior as just another betrayal.

As for her being yandere... she's emotionally unstable enough to cut herself off from the people she cares about and to then almost forget to eat, because she's too busy feeling survivor's guilt from an incident several years ago. And didn't her bad ending involve an incident of rape (or near enough to it) at some point?

It was a good ending, but like you I'm irritated that the fate of the route is decided over something so arbitrary and inconsequential. Granted, I choose the proper route the first time because I tend to know exactly which choices mean which outcomes, but I can see how it'd be frustrating. A seemingly harmless choice between going into the city and staying home basically completely changes Hisao's personality. Hell, it didn't even mention that he was making the choice with Hanako in mind (Although that much is fairly obvious.) It didn't hinder my route, but I'm still a bit indignant over it for whatever reason. Oh well, who cares.

Nyzer wrote: People blame Hisao because salvaging a friendship, and even a romantic relationship, is hardly impossible under those circumstances. Difficult, yes, especially the latter, but there are honestly much worse fights in your average friendship than one person yelling at another to "stop babying me, I hate you". The problem is that while the player might have considered that route, Hisao himself is pretty disgusted by her behavior at that point. And he's got some reason to be - while he was being a pushy moron about it that day, a good 98% of her observed behavior prior to that day indicates that she isn't as independent as she actually turns out to be. She shut him out completely, and when he was worried about it and showed it, she blew up at him rather than try to explain that she just doesn't want to be babied. Her behavior was the type of thing to make people worry, and when he showed how worried he was, well.

I very seriously doubt that Hisao considered her behaviour "Disgusting," and I wouldn't either. He left shaken, distraught and ashamed. Hisao was a white-knighting little prick in that ending, and although Hanako is also at fault for not making her feelings clear, that's a well-known part of her personality. It's easy to hate someone if all you can think is "Shut the fuck up, Hisao." throughout the whole scene.

something so arbitrary and inconsequential.

It's one of the harder things to keep in mind while playing through a game like this, but while Hisao is a player avatar in a lot of ways, he's not a complete avatar of you. To him, those different events weren't arbitrary and inconsequential. And it's especially true for Hanako. Taking her for the walk that he knows she probably isn't completely comfortable with, and seeing that she's able to handle it, affects how he'll think about her when (and after) he makes his call to Lilly. Even if it doesn't mean much to the player, it had an important effect on the player character. His thinking isn't your own.

I very seriously doubt that Hisao considered her behaviour "Disgusting," and I wouldn't either. He left shaken, distraught and ashamed. Hisao was a white-knighting little prick in that ending, and although Hanako is also at fault for not making her feelings clear, that's a well-known part of her personality. It's easy to hate someone if all you can think is "Shut the fuck up, Hisao." throughout the whole scene.

Don't have the direct quote but he said something to the effect that he was feeling "sick" about the way she was acting, and the way she looked while so angry. Her behavior was repelling him, because in this ending, he's not at the level of understanding he needed to be to realize how his actions affected her. He genuinely thought he was helping her in some way, and everything she's ever done before that point has reinforced this.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind getting into this more but it's time to shut the computer down for the night. 4:30 AM shifts can ... eh, violent-ish stuff. Or whatever.

Snow_Storm wrote:you decide the outcome

It is entirely possible for you to tell Hisao to agree with Lilly and not go to Hanako's room... and then watch him completely ignore you and do it anyway.

Brogurt wrote:

Snow_Storm wrote:you decide the outcome

It is entirely possible for you to tell Hisao to agree with Lilly and not go to Hanako's room... and then watch him completely ignore you and do it anyway.

thats exactly what happened to me the first time i played Hanako's route.
i hadn't figured out that telling Hanako not to go with you out to town instantly locks you in the bad ending (btw i didnt spoiler tag that because the title is already spoiler tagged) so i had saved before making the decision on whether to listen to Lily or not.
after getting the bad end i went back to the decision, and got the exact same result.

i was really pissed off

It is entirely possible for you to tell Hisao to agree with Lilly and not go to Hanako's room... and then watch him completely ignore you and do it anyway.

True, and I wish they had a slight change in dialogue there rather than just having him ignore it, but still, based on the events that lead you up to that choice, it does make sense from Hisao's point of view. He thinks he's doing the right thing and what he knows of her up to that point backs up his decision, he just doesn't know her quite as well as he thinks he does.

To be fair, from what Hanako is saying when she yells at Hisao, she doesn't understand him or Lilly quite as well as she think she does either.

Nyzer wrote:

...can somebody tell me why people blame Hisao for Hanako's bad ending despite the fact you decide the outcome? Am I missing out or something or am I just retarded for thinking like that?

People blame Hisao because salvaging a friendship, and even a romantic relationship, is hardly impossible under those circumstances.... The problem is that while the player might have considered that route, Hisao himself is pretty disgusted by her behavior at that point...
Not that she doesn't have reason to be angry in that ending, but Hisao didn't deserve how she treated him. And he is well aware of that. Unfortunately, he's not able to be understanding enough to forgive that. Being ditched by his friends after the first couple weeks in the hospital can't help that mentality either... he probably sees her behavior as just another betrayal.

You make some really good points, but I'd say that there is sufficient reason for both Hanako and the player to be pretty furious with Hisao. The big terrible thing he does is completely refusing to respect her "no" -- not just about dragging her out to be walked so he can be a good guy, but when she repeatedly asks him to leave her room and he ignores her. This is a really serious deal. Hanako has almost certainly had zero personal space from her accident until she got to Yamaku. She doesn't have another home to go to. This room is the only place in the world that she can be alone. And it's incredibly threatening to have some guy who thinks he knows better than you do what's good for you showing up to confront you in your bathrobe and refusing to leave your bedroom when asked. I am pretty sure this would cause almost any woman, even one without her Painful History (ahem), to get really upset (if you feel like it, you might try surveying your female friends...) because c'mon, a large male presence who refuses to respect your wishes about your personal space blocks the door and won't leave your bedroom? That's threatening. Even though Hisao doesn't mean it to be. It's also probably well beyond what the player would consider appropriate, so yeah, anger.

As for him being disgusted, I read the "feeling sick" line to mean more like being sick to your stomach. I know I'd feel that way having a close friend/romantic interest tear me a new one like Hanako did here.

It's been awhile since I played but I remember that he was thinking back at how wrong he was about her and what she wanted and that's what made him "sick"

I find Hanako's bad ending a lot better than the other bad endings. In the other 4 endings the girls either physically leave or coldly walk away forever. Hanako's is the only one that is left open-ended. Not only that, the "breakup" is full of passion. Where there is passion, there is hope, because there are still very strong feelings. In a relationship, anger is way better than indifference, and it is easier to redirect and fix.

The way I saw Hanako's bad ending was that she finally gave voice to her true feelings. Not in the most constructive way, but it is still a step in the right direction, and it is better than keeping her feelings buried. So Hisao walks away for a few days, obviously stunned, but it gives him a lot of time to chew over the details. He probably calls Lilly ("Oops, sorry, I broke your friend while you were gone!") and the two of them talk about a new way to deal with Hanako now that she has finally opened up. Hanako has also had a few days to cool down as well, and she has to feel some relief that she finally got her true feelings off of her chest. By the time Lilly returns from Scotland, and probably after another session with her therapist, my guess is that Hanako would be open to re-establishing a releationship with both Lilly and Hasio on more equal terms, with all of the cards on the table this time.

This is a possibility that none of the other girls offered in their bad endings. i was satisfied that all of Hanako's endings offered some hope for the future, and represented the start of a story rather than the ending of one.

You make some really good points, but I'd say that there is sufficient reason for both Hanako and the player to be pretty furious with Hisao. The big terrible thing he does is completely refusing to respect her "no" -- not just about dragging her out to be walked so he can be a good guy, but when she repeatedly asks him to leave her room and he ignores her. This is a really serious deal. Hanako has almost certainly had zero personal space from her accident until she got to Yamaku. She doesn't have another home to go to. This room is the only place in the world that she can be alone. And it's incredibly threatening to have some guy who thinks he knows better than you do what's good for you showing up to confront you in your bathrobe and refusing to leave your bedroom when asked. I am pretty sure this would cause almost any woman, even one without her Painful History (ahem), to get really upset (if you feel like it, you might try surveying your female friends...) because c'mon, a large male presence who refuses to respect your wishes about your personal space blocks the door and won't leave your bedroom? That's threatening. Even though Hisao doesn't mean it to be. It's also probably well beyond what the player would consider appropriate, so yeah, anger.

Oh, I was upset with him. I would've been more upset if I hadn't known it was the bad ending going into it.
But one problem with all of that is context. Hisao is not in there to be threatening or to force himself on her company - his goal, and he's completely transparent about it, is to get her out of her room so that she'll stop being miserable. It's not so much about what he wants to do as what he thinks (wrongly) needs to be done. Yes, I can see how he's a threatening presence to her, but not in that way. Especially when he practically refused to touch her at all when she was drunk not that long before.
(He also wasn't blocking the door - hell, he wanted her to leave the room.)

The other problem is something I've already said, too -

in this ending, he's not at the level of understanding he needed to be to realize how his actions affected her

and part of that, no matter how you look at it, is her fault. Again, the vast majority of her actions indicate that she is okay with depending on others to a huge degree. The first time she really indicates that she does not like depending on them as much as she does is when she blows up.

I'm not going to say that the events causing her blow up are more her fault than Hisao's (because hell no) but some of it is her fault. And Hisao, at the time of the blow up, is unable to understand how much of the fault is his, and the reason for that is mostly because of how she normally acts.

My point there is that she does indeed have a lot of reason to be mad at him, but it only got that far because of both of their actions. She doesn't realize how much she's at fault, and he doesn't realize how much he is. That's not surprising, considering that we don't see the story for more than a minute after the blow up. It's not human nature to immediately accept fault for a bad situation, is it?
And whether the two of them would eventually calm down, think it through, and realize their own parts in causing that mess... well, that's left open to interpretation. I suspect Lilly the Mediator would have to intervene, though.

I'm not going to say that the events causing her blow up are more her fault than Hisao's (because hell no) but some of it is her fault. And Hisao, at the time of the blow up, is unable to understand how much of the fault is his, and the reason for that is mostly because of how she normally acts.

Heck, she said in her good ending that she just got used to acting a way she didn't actually want to act.

On top of that, Hisao was actually pretty surprised when she told him that the fact she just doesn't much care for people isn't because she's shy. She just never cared to have a huge group of friends or be around people al the time.

Hanako's endings in a nutshell:

http://rtil.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4wow4h

I think I'm going to replay Katawa Shoujo again sometime in the coming months. After reading what you guys thought, I realized I didn't get everything the first time around. There's probably more in the other routes too that I didn't fully understand.

Tununias wrote:I think I'm going to replay Katawa Shoujo again sometime in the coming months. After reading what you guys thought, I realized I didn't get everything the first time around. There's probably more in the other routes too that I didn't fully understand.

That's why many of us replay the routes, often multiple times. Don't do so too soon though. It helps to let details fade so you can enjoy rediscovering them all the more later.

On the topic of endings [spoilers for Lilly's arc], Lilly's good ending is a sneaky bastard. It gets all depressing and shit in a hospital, just bleak as hell...Then the music box starts playing...I've enjoyed all the good ends so far but the smile this one put on my face still hasn't faded. I'll miss Akira too...

Xanatos wrote:

Tununias wrote:I think I'm going to replay Katawa Shoujo again sometime in the coming months. After reading what you guys thought, I realized I didn't get everything the first time around. There's probably more in the other routes too that I didn't fully understand.

That's why many of us replay the routes, often multiple times. Don't do so too soon though. It helps to let details fade so you can enjoy rediscovering them all the more later.

Agreed, I finished the game earlier this year, and due to moving to a new laptop and losing save data, I'm going through the process of replaying the routes. So many details and nuances I missed the first time in my rush to finish! There's a lot about Hisao especially that I neglected to see, and lots of mind screw conversations with Kenji to relive. I'm enjoying it immensely~