Katawa Shoujo Forums

Daitengu wrote:According to the 2001 Scotland census 16% of people claim to be Roman Catholic.

47% are CoS.

As for Japan itself 80-85% of people don't follow a particular religion, with only 15 to 50% of that 20% believing in a God. From there you split that in to actual religions and Christianity as a whole ends up being about 5-7% of the total Japanese population. The likeliness of a Catholic private school would be higher than Presbyterian, as Catholicism has a larger global reach.

Her mother started raising her Presbyterian, and Akira finished it (oh did she ever).

Besides, if going to a Catholic school automatically made you Catholic, a helluva a lot more of the world - never mind Japan - would be Catholic, Dai. Having gone to Catholic school most of my life, I can testify that even in Catholic schools the students can be... less-than-holy. So it's by no means necessary that Lilly was Catholic.

Dai, much as I would love for Lilly and Hisao to be fully God-loving, inspired, practising Catholics who shout the Gospel from the rooftops and bear their witness to the Good News unabashedly, sadly I'm not trying to write their story so it looks like an author tract for Catholicism. I'm trying to write it even modestly "realistically", with just a touch of the supernatural to make it interesting. (Much like the real world.)

Kayo12 wrote:

Daitengu wrote:Game wise I would just assume that Lily was put in a Catholic private school as a way to keep her out of the public eye, as it was the closest to her father's beliefs.

Isn't it her Mother who is Scottish and thus implied to be the religious one?

Forgive me, it has been a while since I've played. Your answer would be the most plausible assuming Lilly's father was influenced in his decision by her mother. Though that is not the only way it can be done.


There's a bit of interesting eccentric conflict of culture and religion. While not particularly relevant(since the specifics are left out), it may make for some food for thought.

In Asian culture in general, including the more 'traditional elites' of Japan, The to be wife adopts the husbands customs, cultures and beliefs. The head of the family is usually male as well. Depending on the head, others may or may not influence his decisions.

In Catholic culture, in order to marry a Catholic one must renounce their previous religion and formally be accepted as Catholic by the Catholic church before they can be wed. Regardless of gender. So if Lilly's mother is an adamant Catholic, Lilly's father would have to convert in order to marry her. Which would make him Catholic atleast on paper. (Makes me wonder if that is what sparked the falling out between Shizune and Lilly's fathers.) If she wasn't an adamant Catholic, then she would abandon Catholicism in order to marry Lilly's father. Considering Lilly went to Catholic school though, either Lilly's father was already Catholic, or he converted in order to marry Lilly's mother.



The random things I know could fill a book or three lol


Oh it's all good Paddy. Entertaining is the name of the game in fiction. Suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy fiction. So many movies with bad science in them for example. There is no ONE outcome to anything socially. People are different and have different Religious and cultural temperaments. The interplay of personal desire, social, religious, cultural morals, and status norms are what is needed to create drama in fiction. I've gotten over the whole, "I don't like it because it goes against my views, so I'm going to blast it" thing. I've learned from science to suspend my view to assume the view of X in order to understand it better.

As for Lilly specifically. I think it's more of a culture joke, game wise, that she's catholic and has a 'healthy sexual appetite'. Even I've heard of 'loose' Catholic school girls when I was a teen lol.

Fan fic wise, Hisao's "Amen" and his internal monologue word of "Providence" feels out of character for him specifically. While not unlikely, to naturally pick up words like that take time. Especially considering Lilly is very good at picking her words.

That was arguably better than the first half. Perhaps because there's more to it, but also because you've allowed yourself the luxury of writer's license.

The first scene is beautiful and captivating in a semi-spiritual way. The way Hisao stumbles upon his lovely Lilly softly singing her heart to the world creates an almost ethereal intimate moment. There isn't much time spent within the head-space of the characters, but it wasn't needed.

This second story, however, you took license with the language and used it to effectively portray something that seems so mundane, hearing that someone you love has been injured or lost, as a catalyst for self-exploration at the bottom of a bottle. Both characters find themselves in sorrow and latch onto the first thing they can think of to quell their tears - it's somehow perfect that hearing about Akira's accident sends them drinking. Through the experience they learn their tolerance for alcohol is less than expected, and its healing powers leave them wanting. It's almost poetic.

Please continue.

Daitengu wrote:There's a bit of interesting eccentric conflict of culture and religion. While not particularly relevant(since the specifics are left out), it may make for some food for thought.

In Asian culture in general, including the more 'traditional elites' of Japan, The to be wife adopts the husbands customs, cultures and beliefs. The head of the family is usually male as well. Depending on the head, others may or may not influence his decisions.

Really? Hm. This I did not know. Hm. That might give an interesting twist to things.

Maybe...

In Catholic culture, in order to marry a Catholic one must renounce their previous religion and formally be accepted as Catholic by the Catholic church before they can be wed. Regardless of gender. So if Lilly's mother is an adamant Catholic, Lilly's father would have to convert in order to marry her. Which would make him Catholic atleast on paper. (Makes me wonder if that is what sparked the falling out between Shizune and Lilly's fathers.) If she wasn't an adamant Catholic, then she would abandon Catholicism in order to marry Lilly's father. Considering Lilly went to Catholic school though, either Lilly's father was already Catholic, or he converted in order to marry Lilly's mother.

...Very close, Dai. Actually, if the non-Catholic party agrees to raise their children Catholic (or at least not get in the way of having them raised Catholic), and the bishop allows it, a non-Catholic and a Catholic can get married. (Although I suppose that could still cause a rift between two brothers. I could just picture Jigoro: "How can you let your wife raise your children to worship a weak man nailed to a piece of wood?!" he roared. )

Also, there are other reasons a child might be sent to a Catholic school. The privacy factor, like Kayo suggested. Also, like private schools, Catholic schools have been reputed for their superior quality of education. If Lilly's parents were fairly well-to-do (as I imagine they were), they could afford to give their children great education. Why a Catholic school rather than a secular one, I don't know.

It could be Lilly's father (do we ever learn his name?) was a convert - not necessarily to Catholicism - before or after he married Lilly's mother. Might be interesting to explore how and why.

I like you, Dai. You make me think.

Oh it's all good Paddy. Entertaining is the name of the game in fiction. Suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy fiction. So many movies with bad science in them for example. There is no ONE outcome to anything socially. People are different and have different Religious and cultural temperaments. The interplay of personal desire, social, religious, cultural morals, and status norms are what is needed to create drama in fiction. I've gotten over the whole, "I don't like it because it goes against my views, so I'm going to blast it" thing. I've learned from science to suspend my view to assume the view of X in order to understand it better.

Exactly why I'm experimenting with Lilly being a nominal Christian. Since most of the world isn't made up of insane, fanatic Catholics out for blood like meself, it's interesting to try and see the world through a non-Catholic, even a non-Christian, lens. Or the lens of someone for whom religion has yet to become so much as a blip on the horizon.

As for Lilly specifically. I think it's more of a culture joke, game wise, that she's catholic and has a 'healthy sexual appetite'. Even I've heard of 'loose' Catholic school girls when I was a teen lol.

Ah... you know you're a diehard Catholic when "horny" and "Catholic school girl" never enter the same thought in your mind.

Fan fic wise, Hisao's "Amen" and his internal monologue word of "Providence" feels out of character for him specifically. While not unlikely, to naturally pick up words like that take time. Especially considering Lilly is very good at picking her words.

Thank you for your criticism. I'll admit "providence" felt a bit forced.

But... I dunno about "amen". I tried using the thesaurus... but I couldn't think of a more tender, more intimate, and more brief word for "You have no idea how much I agree with you, and how very much I love you."

That's kinda what the word "amen" means to me.
Especially when said quietly.



I don't know if I'll make another chapter. I may. But, having just begun my first long-term job today, I imagine I will be rather busy this week. And a tad depressed, too, as well. But we'll see.

All this discussion about Lilly's family is really interesting and brings up a lot of good seeds for future writing. I for one will be filing this away for use later.
As for the second part, I really enjoyed it. I really like the memoir perspective, Hisao telling stories about he and his wife down the road. The vents of the second part caused me some worry, though. These stories could be related post-Lilly.
Not sure what it is, Paddy, but I think you and I have a very similar take on Lilly as a character. I like reading your view on her.

Daitengu, one of my experiences in Japan was when I asked a Japanese girl I had gotten to know in a guesthouse, when I saw her wearing a cross, what her religion was. She replied, "none, it's just a fashion accessory". In Japan, you'll find that most christians actually don't show their religion at all. Many girls would wear crosses jist becayse they look"cool and exotic, a bit like how Chinese characters or Buddha statues are used for decorative purposes in the west.

On the other hand, I do remember well that in Lilly's path, Hisao himself seems to believe in God since he uses expressions like thank God,etc. Which a Japanese unbeliever wouldn't normally do. There's actually quite a few Japanese who are not Christians but believe in a God anyway sort of by ways of indirect influence of American culture (sometimes this belief is combined zwith Shuinto/and/or Buddhist beliefs). Japanese tens to be generally eclectic with regards to religion, but also, see it as a rather private issue. I imagine that for Lilly, since she doesn't seem to care that much about fashion, that she would be sorta-kina christian or at least believe in God also.

As for horny Catholic schoolgirl, in my short career as a teacher, a long time ago, I found some of the girls in a catholic school to be much like the stereotype, where as in public school, most girls were pretty modest. And that was even before I knew the stereotype existed! So in my admitted limited experience, the stereotype not completely unwarranted.

Finally, nice first story, Paddy. I also like prayer music at times, from various religions even.

Regarding those exclamations, they don't only occur in Lilly's path but in others as well. For example Emi's has quite a lot.
The question came up during translation: Those exclamations are not supposed to be any indicaion as to Hisao's (or Emi's or anyone else's) religion. They are simply figures of speech.

I personally found some of what Hisao had to say in Emi's good ending to be just a tad... like, it seems he thinks life ends here on Earth, and he's content with thinking it ends with this life, as long as he and Emi are together. I dunno if that's atheistic... probably...

But, actually, regarding Hisao, I think, he might simply not care much about religion or God in the game. (Probably because no one had taught him - just as a man who doesn't eat vegetables couldn't care less if he were ignorant of nutrition.) But when he is with Lilly, I figure her nominal Christianity might somehow cause him to contemplate the existence of God - not Aquinas's philosophical "God" the prime mover and uncaused cause, nor the "God" of Christians and Jews, but more in the vague sense "God" is used by most people today to mean... something supernatural that's more powerful than you and beyond your comprehension.

mirage_gsm, thanks for explaining that if they are just Amercian English expressions, then that does change the interpretation a bit.

Paddy, belief in an afterlife and belief in a/many God(s) are orthogoal. You can believe in a God but not in an afterlife. For example, one can believe that God simply doesn't bother with afterlives, he just blesses us and our offspring in life if we do what we want and that's it.

You can also not believe in a God but still believe in an afterlife. For example, one can believe the afterlife is a spirit world, that simply exists next to the material world, and that was not created by any being, and just exists like our universe just exists, and that spirits just exist like physical bodies can just exist, etc.

Seeing this is Japan it's really hard to guess what exactly Hisao would believe, apart from a hint here and there. But, since we're talking about Japanese people here, for the characters religion is mostly a non-issue. If there's any lesson to take home though from Lilly's story, it's the importance of honesty and love.

Beoran Awayfromhome wrote:Daitengu, one of my experiences in Japan was when I asked a Japanese girl I had gotten to know in a guesthouse, when I saw her wearing a cross, what her religion was. She replied, "none, it's just a fashion accessory". In Japan, you'll find that most christians actually don't show their religion at all. Many girls would wear crosses jist becayse they look"cool and exotic, a bit like how Chinese characters or Buddha statues are used for decorative purposes in the west.

On the other hand, I do remember well that in Lilly's path, Hisao himself seems to believe in God since he uses expressions like thank God,etc. Which a Japanese unbeliever wouldn't normally do. There's actually quite a few Japanese who are not Christians but believe in a God anyway sort of by ways of indirect influence of American culture (sometimes this belief is combined zwith Shuinto/and/or Buddhist beliefs). Japanese tens to be generally eclectic with regards to religion, but also, see it as a rather private issue. I imagine that for Lilly, since she doesn't seem to care that much about fashion, that she would be sorta-kina christian or at least believe in God also.

I Understand that is quite possible. Though in Lilly's case specifically, she understands the 'weight' of the symbol more than the average non-religious teen because of her background. So I would think there would be more meaning to wearing it or not wearing it when you know what it means.

As for Hisao, God can mean something totally different. Shinto is while not having so many strong believers, it is still part of the Japanese culture. Festivals tend to be at shrines, people still make wishes and prayers at shrines, also there is still the popularity of fortune telling. The ten million Kamisama (Gods) of Shinto innately have a different meaning than the western Abrahamic view of 'God".

I find it interesting that Shinto or it's traditions atleast tends to be used by people for celebration and protection, while Buddhism tends to be used for funerals in Japan.

Figures of speech... I can get behind that as well. I mean, I do slip "Oh God", "Oh Lord", "Jesus Christ", etc ever great once in a while, and I'm Buddhist. Think it's more of picking it up from who I'm around lol.

Indeed, simply by being so saturated in religion Americans tend to use phrases like that, even for those of us like me who don't personally believe a word of it.

(Probably because no one had taught him - just as a man who doesn't eat vegetables couldn't care less if he were ignorant of nutrition.)

This, however... A person can be very much aware of religion and still find it preposterous. Don't assume all who don't share your faith do so out of ignorance. I was raised in a catholic family, attended weekly religious classes for years, went to church on sundays and days of obligation, did baptism, confession, confirmation, all that jazz... and it never once meant anything more to me than keeping my parents off my case.

I'm much rather address you in a PM. But suffice to say I think your argument misses the mark.

Paddy wrote:I'm much rather address you in a PM. But suffice to say I think your argument misses the mark.

I'm not sure it does. It's quite easy to have no interest in religion even though you're quite familiar with it. Assuming Hisao's indifference springs from ignorance isn't warranted IMO.

Why is this turning into a religious argument?

Seriously?

Are you all fighting over whether a fictional character, who wears a cross around her neck, and has a heritage that might be linked to Christianity, could be religious?

Isn't it safe to assume from those details that it's possible? Regardless of whether the VN actually mentioned it or not? The whole negative reaction Paddy's been getting has just been irking me - it's not right.

Isn't the point of Fan Fiction to interpret the character based on your own experience - isn't that really the only way you can do it? It's what I do - am I wrong to use details from my life to sculpt the characters beyond the original creator's intention? I don't think so.

At least, I get the feeling it isn't. Some people have a problem with anyone adding religion into the mix - like it isn't a valid human experience simply because they don't believe in God. Heck, I don't think I believe in God, but I don't really know either way. I don't have a problem with someone using that experience to weave a tale, though, and you should feel ashamed and unenlightened if you do.

Would we have been having this argument if he were making references to Taoism or Hinduism or Kabbalah; or any one of the other thousands of religious belief systems people practice around the world?

Maybe this is why they say you should keep religion and politics out of your writing, but that's not a good enough excuse.

Helbereth wrote:Why is this turning into a religious argument?

Seriously?

Are you all fighting over whether a fictional character, who wears a cross around her neck, and has a heritage that might be linked to Christianity, could be religious?

Isn't it safe to assume from those details that it's possible? Regardless of whether the VN actually mentioned it or not? The whole negative reaction Paddy's been getting has just been irking me - it's not right.

hehehe... I'm impartial.

If there is a 'cause' Paddy is fighting for, I think I'm helping it as much as hurting it, and giving him plot ideas as well lol.

I'm attempting to show plausibility in such a way that ney sayers don't have solid ground to stand on. In an attempt to get them to read it for what it is, instead of bringing personal bias to the table.

While at the same time, commenting on specifics of the writing that would hopefully be edited to bring the character a bit more in line with the game. I mean, what's the point of using a character if you're going to make then act out of character. Having a hard time swapping in a satisfactory word tho >.<

shoudaku maybe?