Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

[Megumeru]

On the contrary, I think she's better off in her own path.

She gets to move on, come out of her shell, and--despite the awkwardness after 'that--she starts new, probably moving on from her past. Remember that this is done in a shorter timeline (probably 1/4->2/4 of Lilly's entire timeline). Not to mention, she beat her best friend in terms of getting the boy she has a crush on.

where as in Lilly's arc, her best friend possibly tells her 'we're going out now' and she decided to move on (joining the newspaper club so as not to get in between them).


If you ever listened or seen Supercell's 君の知らない物語 PV, you can compare the relationship of Lilly, Hanako, and Hisao as the three featured in the video. Hanako being the subtle, shy one who would retreat and choose the stability of her friends more than herself--commendable, but destructive at her own account. But her being able to move on for the sake of Lilly is impressive on its own; you Lilly fans should be grateful she doesn't go berserk or cause internal rivalry like what Misha did to Shizune and Hisao.

(君の知らない物語 ---> Kimi no Shiranai Monogatari, which translates into 'A story you never knew')

[Mirage_GSM]

I don't think I attacked you for creating this thread. If it came across like that, I apologize. I merely pointed out that you could find an extensive discussion elsewhere if you are interested.

First of all, it's no so much avoiding all the bad choices as being given the chance to have Hisao make choices that are at least remotely like what the player would do in real life. Pressing someone into having sex is *not* something I would even come close to in real life, and yet it is a required part of the story if you want to get the "good" ending.

To say that doing it that way was necessary in order to tell a good story is a bit of a stretch. "Visual Novel" may have the world "novel" in it, but the genre gives the player choices... and it's a bit of a slap in the face if those choices are ignored or suddenly taken away.

Well, it's not like he was "pressing her into having sex." She locked the door, undressed... and a few scenes later explicitly admitted that she expected to have sex with him. ("I thought that if I let you do that… you might see me as someone more than [someone you needed to protect].")
Add to that that Hisao is a completely unexperienced teenager, and I don't think I can fault him for what he did.

Also, Hisao is a fictional character. The player does get to make some choices for him, but in this case there wasn't any choice, because the scene was important to the plot, and avoiding it wouldn't have allowed the author to tell the story he wanted to tell. I have no problems at all with that. The final scene of the path would not have worked without that, and it was one of the strongest scenes in the whole VN.
I find it way more frustrating to be given several choices that ultimately amount to the same like in Rin's path where you get three choices that basically all encourage her to do the exposition or earlier in Hanako's path where one of your choices is completely ignored, if you chose the wrong option in the choice before that.
Giving each of the thousands of readers a choice that would reflect how they personally would have reacted in every given situation is way beyond the scope of any VN. In fact, to me KS stands out as one of the VNs with the most believable characters I've ever read.

[Oddball]

Maybe it's just me, but I got the feeling that Hanako wasn't quite as well together as she was making herself out to be by the end of Lilly's route. She wasn't panicking and running away all the time like she used to, but she seemed a bit too well adjusted. Personally, I get the feeling that she was more forcing herself to try to seem happy and normal because she didn't want Lilly and Hisao to worry about her anymore but she still wasn't completley as comfortable as she acted around Hisao.

Just because we see her smiling and talking about her new friends and going on a trip, doesn't mean she wasn't in the bathroom hyperventilating telling herself that "Come on. Get it together. I can do this. I can go out there and be happy," just a few minutes before.

That's just how I saw it. She just seemed a little too adjusted by the end of Lilly's route.

Now as for the sex scene with Hanako, that's something they both needed in a way. They both needed to just totally screw up (no pun intended) so they could each step back and question what they thought about each other, and themselves, and how they had messed things up so badly. Without something that personal and that awkward between them, they wouldn't have been able to force the confrontation that led to them really understanding each other better.

[Althamus]

Just because we see her smiling and talking about her new friends and going on a trip, doesn't mean she wasn't in the bathroom hyperventilating telling herself that "Come on. Get it together. I can do this. I can go out there and be happy," just a few minutes before.

True dat. And you're right, that would be more incharacter and fitting with what I know of her.

Now as for the sex scene with Hanako, that's something they both needed in a way. They both needed to just totally screw up (no pun intended) so they could each step back and question what they thought about each other, and themselves, and how they had messed things up so badly. Without something that personal and that awkward between them, they wouldn't have been able to force the confrontation that led to them really understanding each other better.

I was thinking a similar thing. With their previous role of Hisao white-knighting her, it would be extremely hard for her to change their relationship to a more equal one slowly over time. I wouldn't go so far as to say they needed to screw things up, but they would need to take a good long hard look at their relationship, and this was one way of doing that. Another way, (which was what I believe Hanako was aiming for) would be for them to start dating, because that also requires both people to reevaluate what they know about each other.

[Mirrormn]

Recall from Hanako's route that one of the things she hated most about herself and her situation was feeling like she was a burden on other people. If she did like Hisao in Lilly's route, she would be absolutely terrified of doing anything to mess up Lilly and Hisao's relationship once she knew about it. Still, we also saw in Hanako's route that she tends to grow the most from painful experiences. I would suspect that "losing" Hisao to Lilly was very painful for her at first, but served as a wake-up call which made her realize the absolute necessity of becoming more sociable and independent, for her own sake, hence her behavior later in Lilly's route.

[ziamatt]

I think in Lilly's route Hisao dividing Lilly's attention forces Hanako to be more independent and that leads to her gradually weaning off of being protected by Lilly.

But if Lilly was a "cage" for Hanako that made her feel safe but robbed her of dependence on anyone but Lilly, Hisao in Hanako's route only made the cage a little bigger, at least at first. Hanako is now "free" to rely on Lilly and/or Hisao, but she is still completely dependent on them. The whole point of Hanako's good end could be said to be about Lilly and Hisao realizing they're restricting Hanako more than they're helping her, with the ending being the culmination of that realization. Hisao admits at the end of Hanako's good ending that they haven't solved anything, but they now have a basis for their future together. That's the best way her route could have ended. Hanako has a lot of problems and they can't just be dealt with completely with a few breakthroughs here and there, but those breakthroughs create optimism that Hisao and Hanako will be alright in the future.

[Paddy]

I think in Lilly's route Hisao dividing Lilly's attention forces Hanako to be more independent and that leads to her gradually weaning off of being protected by Lilly.

But if Lilly was a "cage" for Hanako that made her feel safe but robbed her of dependence on anyone but Lilly, Hisao in Hanako's route only made the cage a little bigger, at least at first. Hanako is now "free" to rely on Lilly and/or Hisao, but she is still completely dependent on them. The whole point of Hanako's good end could be said to be about Lilly and Hisao realizing they're restricting Hanako more than they're helping her, with the ending being the culmination of that realization. Hisao admits at the end of Hanako's good ending that they haven't solved anything, but they now have a basis for their future together. That's the best way her route could have ended. Hanako has a lot of problems and they can't just be dealt with completely with a few breakthroughs here and there, but those breakthroughs create optimism that Hisao and Hanako will be alright in the future.

I get that, I get that. It's implied that things get better in the weeks after the confession in the park. I get that.

But it feels like it was cut prematurely, so that you have to imagine what happens afterwards and hope it did turn out OK. And that's kind of a bitter pill to take after all of the confusion that occurred in the couple of days before. Whereas, in Lilly's arc, you can see that apparently Hanako's apparently ready to see the world and brave it. She HAS changed and you've seen it.

Hanako's route ending feels... open-ended by comparison.

[demonix]

1. Time, as been said is a large factor. Hanako's being 6 weeks(end in May). Lilly's route, up to the airport chase, is 10 to 12 weeks (end of June to early July-ish). Hanako only started the newspaper club somewhere in June in Lilly's route.

You've actually got the months wrong as Hanako's good end brings you up to mid July (Hanako's birthday is on July 10 which is when she secludes herself during both routes) and Lilly's would end early August.

You may have forgotten that Hisao had his heart attack in February and spent 4 months in the hospital, so he would've transferred into Yamaku at the beginning of June (lets not forget that Lilly does mention the date to Rin when she found out she only had one day to complete the mural).

[Guest Poster]

The reason Hanako's arc ended at the time it did was to avoid ending fatigue. The main conflict was over...drawn-out epilogue scenes would have made the story fade away instead of ending with a landmark moment. Yes, everybody would have loved to see some d'awwwworthy scenes of happy Hanako afterwards, but that's what imagination is for.

As other people said, Hanako's story takes place over a short period of time...before Lilly even got back from her trip to Scotland. Seeing that she was still her old self around the time Lilly got back from her first trip, I'd say Hanako made more progress in her own route at that point than in Lilly's route.

It's not so much the fact Hanako needs a friend more or a lover more. Because of her deep-seated beliefs she's useless and a burden to others, she needs people in her life who aren't afraid to rely on her...people who allow her to make herself useful and make herself feel appreciated through her own efforts. Whether those people are lovers or friends doesn't matter as long as they're there for her and allow her to be there for them.

Ultimately, in the long term, I believe Hanako's better off in her own route. Not so much because she got a boyfriend out of it, but because she got to adress some of her deeper issues and demons that I believe remained dormant in Lilly's route. In Lilly's route, Hanako makes new friends, but it's still only casual contact...impressive, especially for her, but not anything beyond what she achieved with Lilly. (other than the fact Naomi and Natsume aren't blind) In her own route, Hanako shares things that she never even shared with Lilly, so I think her development, while more painful, is also more profound.

I was particularly unhappy and... well... shocked(?) at where Hanako's path went. I mean, she takes her clothes off as a meaningful, symbolic gesture of the revelation of all her physical scars, and Hisao, King of Boners that he is, thinks "OOOH SEX."

If it was merely a meaningful symbolic gesture meant to show off her scars, she'd have kept her bra on. (since her chest isn't scarred) Hanako may be naive enough to believe a bout of sex is some kind of miracle cure that'd turn their awkward friendship into a lovey-dovey relationship, but I doubt she's so naive as to believe showing your naked boobs to a guy will be seen as anything other than an invitation to have sex. Hisao saw it as an invitation to have sex because that's exactly what it was and Hanako even admitted as much afterwards.

Worse yet, his advances are totally silent on both sides, and you find out Hanako didn't really want to have sex.

Totally silent, but also unambigious. Hanako may not actually have said anything, but her silent nods just before they sat down on the bed and again before the actual intercourse seemed clear enough. The atmosphere was way too uncomfortable for conversation and they both knew it. Hanako may not have wanted to have sex, but she wanted what she thought would be the consequences of sleeping together. Ends justifying the means and all... Even if Hisao could have managed an "are you sure" at that point, the reply would have been "yes". There's little doubt about that.

That may not actually be rape, but it comes really close...

No it didn't. Hanako instigated it, didn't really want the act itself that much, but nevertheless wanted to go through with it.

and it highlights some of the dangers of not communicating openly enough with your lover.

This is actually merely one of the many times Hisao and Hanako failed to understand each other's feelings correctly. It's one of the route's central points. Hisao and Hanako failed to communicate openly throughout the arc. Hisao admitted to Miki he had feelings for Hanako, but because he thought showing romantic interest in her would scare her off, he kept her in the dark about this and friend-zoned her out of misguided pity. Hanako likewise was attracted to Hisao, but was constantly anxious of Hisao interacting with or looking at other females, yet kept those feelings hidden from Hisao so he couldn't explain to her he wasn't actually interested in Yuuko or Miki as a romantic partner. The moment Hanako and Hisao decide to actually communicate openly about themselves is also the moment their relationship changes from a friendship into a relationship and is the conclusion of the central conflict.

Your opinions about Hanako's H-scene are fairly common, but IMHO people are way too eager to see Hisao as some predator and Hanako as a victim. (a practice the whole route basically argues against) It just ain't so. Hanako made a stupid decision and Hisao made a stupid decision in going along with Hanako's stupid decision. Both are at fault, neither more than the other. The result was really nothing more than simply a bad first time. It was embarrassing and awkward but plenty of people in real life have a lousy first time, occasionally for the wrong reasons too and they're generally neither traumatized nor mentally scarred by it, so I don't see why people believe this left mental marks on Hanako in any way...the girl knows what trauma is, this ain't it.

This may seem harsh, but while I acknowledge Hisao failed to grasp Hanako's reasoning during that night in her room, I'm not even upset with him for accepting her offer of sex. In fact, I think he did the right thing and not just because turning Hanako down might have resulted in her feeling Hisao rejected her and had no interest in her romantically. The whole point of the route was that coddling Hanako was counterproductive to her recovery, so it's ironic people are so eager to shield her from the consequences of her own bad decisions instead of allowing her to experience the results and having her learn from them.

[Mirrormn]

In fact, I think he did the right thing and not just because turning Hanako down might have resulted in her feeling Hisao rejected her and had no interest in her romantically.

I could not agree more with this. Hanako's main insecurity, throughout her entire route, is being unsure of the nature of Hisao's feelings towards her. What she desires more than anything else is for Hisao to see her as a valuable person, to enjoy spending time with her, to want her instead of just wanting to protect her. Throughout every interaction between her and Hisao, she is constantly trying to analyze his reactions and behaviors in order to gauge his feelings and motivations (of course, she is too shy to ask him openly or to confess her own feelings). This is why one of the two most important decisions in her route is whether or not Hisao asks her to go into the city together after Lilly leaves; doing so is really the first action Hisao takes that indicates he's more interested in spending time with Hanako than catering to her social anxiety.

Now I do think that Hisao should have been slightly more hesitant once Hanako took her clothes off, just to be sure he was interpreting the situation correctly, but if he had purposefully declined Hanako's sexual advances, it would have been an absolute disaster for her self-esteem. She would start to believe Hisao wasn't interested in her romantically, that she was just a burden on him, that she couldn't possibly have anything to offer him, etc. She would regress, she would cry, she would refuse to let people in her room, etc. The overall outcome would probably be worse than either of Hanako's actual bad endings.

As awkward, stupid, and unpleasant as Hanako and Hisao's first time together was, it was absolutely crucial for the development of their relationship.

[Paddy]

Ah... hello again o wise and venerable Guest Poster.

I generally agree with your post - you seem to be a master at intelligent mega-posts - except for the stuff addressed below.

If it was merely a meaningful symbolic gesture meant to show off her scars, she'd have kept her bra on. (since her chest isn't scarred)

Her right breast is a bit scarred, actually. More importantly, her back is, also. But your premise is probably correct.

Hanako may not have wanted to have sex, but she wanted what she thought would be the consequences of sleeping together. Ends justifying the means and all...

Precisely. People seem to overlook this a lot. She wanted to be equal to Hisao in her relationship, and not just a dependent. So what's the fastest way to get a guy to love you? The movies, comics, novels, books, and generally the media will tell you: sex, of course. The pity being she did not know and (felt that she) could not turn to anyone for better ideas. Sex is definitely the most wonderful gift a woman can give to a man. But... oh how I wish she'd mustered the courage just to talk to Hisao. Or something. I don't know. I just don't know. But the sex scene with Hanako... I wish the scenario were different.

Hisao admitted to Miki he had feelings for Hanako, but because he thought showing romantic interest in her would scare her off, he kept her in the dark about this and friend-zoned her out of misguided pity.

Good observation.

The result was really nothing more than simply a bad first time. It was embarrassing and awkward but plenty of people in real life have a lousy first time, occasionally for the wrong reasons too and they're generally neither traumatized nor mentally scarred by it, so I don't see why people believe this left mental marks on Hanako in any way...the girl knows what trauma is, this ain't it.

Agreed. I'd say it also only managed to bamboozle Hisao all the more. (It bamboozled me for sure.) Quite the opposite of clearly explaining her feelings for Hisao, her attempt only made me wonder what in the Dickens she was trying to do (especially when she runs away from you after class the next day). In retrospect, it makes sense. I just wish... it didn't have to happen to finally understand what she wanted.

This may seem harsh, but while I acknowledge Hisao failed to grasp Hanako's reasoning during that night in her room, I'm not even upset with him for accepting her offer of sex. In fact, I think he did the right thing and not just because turning Hanako down might have resulted in her feeling Hisao rejected her and had no interest in her romantically.

I understand your argument, though I don't agree with it.

I might go so far as to say Hanako was to blame for the chain of events that followed, not Hisao. Though Hanako was acting in desperation, or frustration. Like a child picking dandelions at the last minute so he can have a gift to give her for his mother's anniversary. It's a well-intended gesture, but they both know it's not what they really wanted to give (or get).

Hanako really is in some ways just a little child trying to reach up to her father's arms for a hug. She does need to be protected. But more importantly, she needs to be loved, and to know she is loved, just as she is, because her love is all she has to give. And that's more than enough for me.

The whole point of the route was that coddling Hanako was counterproductive to her recovery, so it's ironic people are so eager to shield her from the consequences of her own bad decisions instead of allowing her to experience the results and having her learn from them.

I understand your argument... but I disagree with it completely.

Trying to get Hisao to have sex was taking it too far. It doesn't make her evil by any means, but I damn well know something is wrong when she barely opens up to me one minute, then the next she's telling me her life story and then trying to get me to make love to her.

I'm not exaclty sure what I would have done in that situation, but I think I would have just come out and asked her, because I think I would have know by then something was fishy. Something was up. It would not take a night of uncomfortable sex and day of bewilderment to realise sex really was not what she wanted.

And so it was. She simply wanted to be loved. And needed. You don't need sex for that.

[Oddball]

Trying to get Hisao to have sex was taking it too far. It doesn't make her evil by any means, but I damn well know something is wrong when she barely opens up to me one minute, then the next she's telling me her life story and then trying to get me to make love to her.

I'm not exaclty sure what I would have done in that situation, but I think I would have just come out and asked her, because I think I would have know by then something was fishy. Something was up. It would not take a night of uncomfortable sex and day of bewilderment to realise sex really was not what she wanted.

I think that would have probably ended pretty badly for you.

Hanako doesn't want to be seen as weak or needing in protection. She wanted to know people actually could think of her and treat her as a person that could be loved. This is one of the few, if only, times she actually tries to take the initiative.

When she starts stripping, asking her what's wrong would most likely be interpreted as telling her that there's still something wrong with her that you want to try to fix and that you're not interested in seeing her as asexual being.

If you asked her if she was sure she was ready for this, she most likely would have said "yes". How do you follow that up? Are you going to tell her that she's wrong and you understand what she wants and needs better than she does?

Now if you want to point out where Hisao messed up in that scene the problem isn't having sex with her. The problem was that he couldn't yet come out and say, "I love you," not before and not after. While that wouldn't have fixed thing completley between them, it would have gone a long way towards smoothing over the uncomfortable feelings and uncertainty the both had, particularly the day after.

[Paddy]

Hanako doesn't want to be seen as weak or needing in protection. She wanted to know people actually could think of her and treat her as a person that could be loved. This is one of the few, if only, times she actually tries to take the initiative.

When she starts stripping, asking her what's wrong

What makes you think I would ask her just then? Considering I would have just opened my shirt to expose my scar, I could see it as kind of being a trade off, like has always been doing - whenever I expose something, she exposes something - sometimes far more than what I did - in return.

would most likely be interpreted as telling her that there's still something wrong with her that you want to try to fix and that you're not interested in seeing her as asexual being. If you asked her if she was sure she was ready for this, she most likely would have said "yes". How do you follow that up? Are you going to tell her that she's wrong and you understand what she wants and needs better than she does?

This is a difficult question. Because I very much want to love Hanako. But I cannot give her this. Not yet. Not for any reason.
Surely, if I explain it properly, she would understand. See, I am a Catholic. And I try to take this "chastity" stuff seriously.

Whether it would be me using her, or her using me, to try to fulfill something in herself she didn't have... I just could not. See, that's a thing chastity tries to prevent - one person from using another, or two people from using each other.

I do not know if she would take it the right way. I don't know what exactly I'd do. Perhaps I would be amazed. Hug her. Tell her I love her. that it doesn't matter to me whether we have sex or not - that I love her dearly and don't want to lose her, or hurt her. I want to protect her - not because she is useless and always needs help... but because she has value to me. She is more precious than silver, gold, or diamonds. If it weren't for God Almighty, she'd be the most valuable thing I have.

Yes, I am protective of her. But not because she's worthless. Quite the opposite. It's because of her value and dignity as another human being - more importantly, one who I've been trying to understand for the past month and whom I've wanted to get close to, but never could - that I want to protect her. She's not a heap of rubbish that must be attended to until someone else can. She's a precious diamond that I want to protect - that I would live and die for - because of who she is. And damn it, I'm not giving her up! For anything!

But sex is not the answer. It's nothing personal. I'll walk with you to the ends of the Earth. But if you think my not having sex with you means I don't love you, care for you, or think you have any value... you don't know me.

And apparently, I didn't know you at all.

--------

I think what Hanako really wants is to feel like she is worth something, protected or not. She feels like my protecting her makes her worthless, useless. I don't think you necessarily need to stop protecting her. You just need to get her to see things differently.

[Alexbond45]

I agree with Paddy, But that's because we both follow Christianity.
Not much Else I want to write, Wanna see what Else Paddy Says and see If I can rebound off that.

[Paddy]

Actually, knowing myself, I would probably stand there for a good five minutes or more like a dolt, not knowing what to do. Sex is obviously out of play. And while it's no sin to hug a topless girl, I am still rather conservative at heart.

Even if I did catch the hint... no matter how much I would want it, I could not go through with it. I would have to confront her. I would have to ask hard questions that may very well alienate her from me. It's a chance I'd have to take, and hope she trusts me enough that she would understand.

If, by that point, I'd gotten to know her better, or feel more attached to her, though, I don't know what I'd do.

But I would like to think I would want to be her knight in shining armour - or at least her comrade in arms. She really is too cute and not annoying enough for me to feel she is a burden. If I had felt that way about her, I'm not sure I would have pursued much of a relationship with her to begin with.

The emphasis should never be on protecting Hanako. It should be that she is a person of inherent human value, and of even more value to me as a friend and a love.