Katawa Shoujo Forums

Snow_Storm wrote:Throwing it out there, surprise ain't nobody mention the whole condom thing with Hanako's sex scene.

Ahh. Good point. I'll add that to the list.

EDIT: Although, didn't someone mention in another thread that Emi also used a condom? it's just not in the artwork. Maybe a separate list of protection use would be in order?

Snow_Storm wrote:Throwing it out there, surprise ain't nobody mention the whole condom thing with Hanako's sex scene.

That symbolized the "wall" between Hanako and Hisao and the over-protectiveness Hisao had for Hanako. The awkwardness of the sex scene only emphasized how detrimental to a loving relationship white-knighting is.

Random condom is still random though.

I remember Hisao using a condom in one of Emi's scenes, maybe it's just to have safe sex?

This thread is the ultimate over-analysis of KS... I'm okay with this.

gRaViJa wrote:This thread is the ultimate over-analysis of KS... I'm okay with this.

Truly great literature is something that you can discuss over and find new subtleties in. It's the type of written piece that when you reread, you say something like "Eureka! I figured out something new". While we are clearly over-analyzing this VN, I'm pretty sure that all the other great books out there have people who over-analyze them, enjoy it, and tell of their new insights to their peers while knowing that they are over-analyzing. Death of the Author and all that.

I mean seriously! Shakespearean works were never supposed to be deep, but the people who over-analyzed them found a reason to hail them as deep, insightful classics. However, I can agree with the sentiment that these plays have value because the people who read them have found one.

While there is such a thing as a wrong type of analysis (such as taking things out of context and other conclusions that derive from logical fallacies), as long as the logic behind your train of thought is sound, there's nothing wrong with over-analysis. That's what I believe anyways.

EDIT: Oh yes, before I forget, the use of a condom in Emi's last scene shows that as long as the woman in question is okay with it and it's kept at a reasonable level, there's nothing wrong with trying to protect the woman you love. By that scene, Hisao learned not to overdo the white-knight act, and Emi had learned to rely on others, so that's why the scene is so heart-warming. In contrast, Hanako's scene is disturbing because Hisao hasn't completely learned not to overdo the white knight act yet, and Hanako hasn't learned that it's okay to rely on others. Those two scenes certainly have some interesting parallels.

Bigbishounen wrote:

Rivan wrote: 3) Hanako isn't comfortable with her body at all, she is shy, closed, and is very slow to take action. Therefore, her stripping is really all the initiative she can take. Cowgirl does make sense, as she would not be comfortable taking the lead or presenting her body in a too flaunting way (like doggy-style or reverse cowgirl or whateva).

6) Misha. Basically... I have no idea. The scene was meant to be awkward, the way I heard and see it. What more awkward than to have to *look at the face and into the eyes of the girl you're making love to who just happens to be the bi-curious lesbian best friend of your girlfriend on whom you're both cheating right now, for half of the time?
Also, Misha seems energetic most of the time, but is, at the core, vulnerable, a bit tired and scared. So, maybe that's it.

Interesting thoughts. Although Hanako doesn't do cowgirl. She does Missionary. (really uncomfortable not fully undressed missionary.)

Regarding Misha, If you go back and look at the scene, it's actually Misha who looks away. Hisao is looking straight down, although I don't think we can see his face. It's almost as though she turns her head to the side so she can't see him. She doesn't even want to look at what she is doing so that she can remain somewhat "apart" from the act, so ashamed is she at her own behavior.

Hanako, on the other hand, looks straight into Hisao's eyes. She is trying to use sex to connect with Hisao, so she seeks out his face. Two girls, the same position, totally opposite intents and desires. That CANNOT have been accidental on the dev's part.

I know. I just somehow wrote "does" instead of "doesn't make sense". Fixed, now.

As for Misha, it is difficult to perceive the whole thing for the entire time and explain exactly who's the one "pulling away" from the act more. It'd appear they look at each other initially, then she apparently starts looking a bit to the side and Hisao doesn't seem eager to look at her face either. The scene begins with a description that she's the one to "nervously close her eyes". She also "resists on formality" and nods without looking at him, they both are a bit too tense and Hisao regrets involving himself pretty much the moment the thing starts. She does try to give it an illusion of intimacy, but Hisao goes so far as to wish she'd stop talking. Also, she seems intent on asking him something afterwards or at least attempting to "talk things out", but seems to quickly drop the issue because he's so unresponsive. It appears like Misha is very reluctant about the act from the start but at least tries to make it work when she realizes it was her who suggested this. Hisao, on the other hand, goes from hero to zero as, at first, he thinks if this would've been stopped, he'd do this a long time ago and then realizes the act feels purely physical (mechanical, even), so comforting Misha verbally in addition is out of the question.

My guess is we were to be able to tell : 1) It was awkward 2) Misha wasn't sure this is what she wanted to the very end 3) Hisao could only tell this is what he DIDN'T want after he, coloquially speaking, busted a nut. 4) Hisao was supposed to come out of the scene with a little bit of a bastard air.

There is indeed some irony in the fact that they'd pick two girls vastly different for a superficially very similar sexual acts (both are awkward, both are cowgirl, both, eventually, end with the girl leaving in some fashion, although in Hanako's, is that she separates from him in the morning).

On the whole, I'd concede the acts are different. Hanako uses it as an attempt to further emotional connection and seemingly fails, and Hisao is overly clumsy and slightly bastardly in the act.They are not even really naked when doing it, and Hisao, oh the hero, even remembers to use a condom.

Misha's act bears the superficial resemblence to a proper sex act between two people engaged in a trusting or even loving relationship. She starts it rather tenderly (I mean come on, just read the scene. I'd rather expect Misha to go for a "Marshmallow hell" attempts if we were talking about a guy she liked, if I didn't knew there was a whole different Misha underneath). The guy undresses the girl. He conforms to her wishes as to how the act should proceed (as OPPOSED to Hanako's, where he just has to read everything from thin air and does it very, very BADLY). They don't even use protection. (Yay for Misha's milk-filled breasts 9 months after).

The difference is, in Hanako's scene, they actually have a reason to go through with it (they do have feelings for each other), but are completely not ready to do such a thing, something neither one recognizes until all too late.

In Misha's scene, both are actually plenty ready to do such a thing, but thing is, they have no reason to. It isn't really "comforting", either. Hisao sees Misha as a friend (stupid lack of "Confess to Misha and break up with Shizoon" ), and the only way Misha is really wanting to do the act is because of her despair and probably by one of those sick anime-like associations ("They're lovers and they're close, so if I do it with him, it's just about 25% the same as if I were doing it with her. Since I don't seem to deserve anything better, I am fine with that."). They know something is wrong about halfway through the act if not for the entirety of it. Also, the act is forgotten. Nothing is ever fixed or talked about. It's like they didn't do it.

encrypted12345 wrote:

gRaViJa wrote:This thread is the ultimate over-analysis of KS... I'm okay with this.

Truly great literature is something that you can discuss over and find new subtleties in. It's the type of written piece that when you reread, you say something like "Eureka! I figured out something new". While we are clearly over-analyzing this VN, I'm pretty sure that all the other great books out there have people who over-analyze them, enjoy it, and tell of their new insights to their peers while knowing that they are over-analyzing. Death of the Author and all that.

I mean seriously! Shakespearean works were never supposed to be deep, but the people who over-analyzed them found a reason to hail them as deep, insightful classics. However, I can agree with the sentiment that these plays have value because the people who read them have found one.

While there is such a thing as a wrong type of analysis (such as taking things out of context and other conclusions that derive from logical fallacies), as long as the logic behind your train of thought is sound, there's nothing wrong with over-analysis. That's what I believe anyways.

EDIT: Oh yes, before I forget, the use of a condom in Emi's last scene shows that as long as the woman in question is okay with it and it's kept at a reasonable level, there's nothing wrong with trying to protect the woman you love. By that scene, Hisao learned not to overdo the white-knight act, and Emi had learned to rely on others, so that's why the scene is so heart-warming. In contrast, Hanako's scene is disturbing because Hisao hasn't completely learned not to overdo the white knight act yet, and Hanako hasn't learned that it's okay to rely on others. Those two scenes certainly have some interesting parallels.

If you have reason to believe creators would be capable of pulling off such symbolisms or associations in a game, then little if anything ever can be called over-analyzing. I'm sure some of us believe that KS devs would be plenty capable of putting symbolism other than "awkward" or "non awkward mindblowing orgasm-inducing loving awesome sex" into the scenes, so, we probably still did not hit the bridge running into the kingdom of over-analyzation.

I write at a Silent Hill related forums, so I see plenty of analyzing which would be called over-analyzing in normal circumstances... And then a person comes, takes it up to eleven, and I realize what we did before wasn't over-analyzing at all, but valid, rational discussion and thinking

Not to sidetrack, but you might want to check those quote tags Rivan.

Oh, also, just for definitional clarity, "Cowgirl" is a shorthand term for "Girl on top, facing each other".


Yeee haaa!


It's the opposite of "Missionary" which is the girl on the bottom, facing each other.

Not picking on you, just noticed you seemed confused on that point.

Bigbishounen wrote:Not to sidetrack, but you might want to check those quote tags Rivan.

Oh, also, just for definitional clarity, "Cowgirl" is a shorthand term for "Girl on top, facing each other".

http://imworld.aufeminin.com/dossiers/d ... 153519.jpg
Yeee haaa!


It's the opposite of "Missionary" which is the girl on the bottom, facing each other.

Not picking on you, just noticed you seemed confused on that point.

Ok, let me clarify :

What I meant to say was : Cowgirl position does not make sense for Hanako due to (whatever I wrote later)

What it ended up being due to a simple mistake in writing "Hanako blah blah blah, Cowgirl does make sense.

Three little signs, such a difference in meaning.

Rivan wrote:

Bigbishounen wrote:Not to sidetrack, but you might want to check those quote tags Rivan.

Oh, also, just for definitional clarity, "Cowgirl" is a shorthand term for "Girl on top, facing each other".

http://imworld.aufeminin.com/dossiers/d ... 153519.jpg
Yeee haaa!


It's the opposite of "Missionary" which is the girl on the bottom, facing each other.

Not picking on you, just noticed you seemed confused on that point.

Ok, let me clarify :

What I meant to say was : Cowgirl position does not make sense for Hanako due to (whatever I wrote later)

What it ended up being due to a simple mistake in writing "Hanako blah blah blah, Cowgirl does make sense.

Three little signs, such a difference in meaning.

Ahhh. Ok. much clearer now.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Bigbishounen wrote:

Rivan wrote:

Bigbishounen wrote:Not to sidetrack, but you might want to check those quote tags Rivan.

Oh, also, just for definitional clarity, "Cowgirl" is a shorthand term for "Girl on top, facing each other".

http://imworld.aufeminin.com/dossiers/d ... 153519.jpg
Yeee haaa!


It's the opposite of "Missionary" which is the girl on the bottom, facing each other.

Not picking on you, just noticed you seemed confused on that point.

Ok, let me clarify :

What I meant to say was : Cowgirl position does not make sense for Hanako due to (whatever I wrote later)

What it ended up being due to a simple mistake in writing "Hanako blah blah blah, Cowgirl does make sense.

Three little signs, such a difference in meaning.

Ahhh. Ok. much clearer now.

Thanks for clearing that up.

No problem .

On a side note, is it just me who got the expression that out of all the girls, Shizune and Rin are the really selfish ones when it comes to sex? Their sex scenes hit me with this kind of impression.

Rivan wrote:On a side note, is it just me who got the expression that out of all the girls, Shizune and Rin are the really selfish ones when it comes to sex? Their sex scenes hit me with this kind of impression.

Not me. With Shizune I think it's more of an impatience thing. We already know she's a hard driving gal, and I think she knew that Hisao, while he tried to keep up, just wasn't as aggressive as she was. She loved him anyway, but I think got exasperated at having to wait for him to make the first move with intimacy. So she cornered him, tied his hands so he couldn't protest and then got busy. It's not so much selfishness as forwardness. She was ready, she knew Hisao was ready, yet he wasn't making a move. So she forced the issue. Not the "smoothest" of approaches, but very much in line with her personality. Now, if Hisao had gotten off a protest or had struggled more and she STILL forced sex on him, THEN I would say yes, very selfish. And kinda Raep too. But Hisao "Rose to the challenge" once he realized what she was doing, so it was OK.

The second time around they are much more "In Tune" with each other, and Shizune and Hisao take turns leading. The second sex scene is important because it's the moment when they cease being "Student Council President" and "Student Council Member" and become a partnership of equals. Shizune treats Hisao as her equal in every way, and Hisao is more than up to the task as he brings Shizune to climax again and again. They still have a current of competition running between them, but rather than create friction, it electrifies and ignites them into higher levels of passion. It's quite bracing.

With Rin it's another matter entirely. Rin is very much a creature of the moment, as noted many times in her storyline. With her I think it was simple desire mixed with opportunity. She had gone for her walk, made up her mind that she loved Hisao, and decided to to see him. I seriously doubt she planned to be soaking wet, it just happened that way. Just as I doubt she intended to have Hisao's face between her thighs at that moment, it just happened that way and Rin, being a creature of the moment, seized the moment and guided Hisao in. Again, no forcing. Hisao took that dive voluntarily. All he needed was a gentle nudge from Rin's supple legs and he went in "face first".

Afterward, as Hisao again shows some trepidation Rin encourages him to let go of his fear, stop worrying and just be with her. It's a beautiful moment, and I think it's the exact moment when Hisao and Rin connect on a deeper level for the very first time. They then immediately consummate that connection with passionate lovemaking. Nothing is forced, everything comes naturally and smoothly. I personally found their scene to be one of the more passionate ones, if only because it was preceded by so much confusion, heartache and longing.

That's my take on it anyway.