Review on Katawa Shoujo

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by Mirage_GSM »

The game mostly ends once you have the girl.
Still don't quite understand why you think that.
As I pointed out in three of the five parts they start going out way before the end. In the other two it is only shortly before the end, but it is also when the plot-relevant story is resolved. It wouldn't make any sense to continue at that point.
Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. ... In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction. What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way. Showing some of them, but not in order to exploit their struggles for a lame joke or the like, but in order to show how it can be dealt with. The game hardly ever touches this aspect.
The point is that you aren't supposed to pity them. None of the girls would either want or need pity, so why should the VN try to depict them that way?
As to why the VN doesn't show their "struggles": they don't struggle. They have some difficulties doing some things, like Lilly needing help to go shopping or Rin being unable to peel oranges, which are addressed in the VN. other than that they have learned to live with the way they are, and that something like that is possible is the message that KS is trying to convey.
Showing the girly agonizing over their disabilities would completely negate that message.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.
oneyoudontknow
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

encrypted12345 wrote:It mentioned the disabilities, but they didn't matter because the girls were LONG used to them already. Lilly, Rin, and Shizune were born with them, so they invented ways to work around the disabilities since before they could remember. What is darkness to someone who has never seen light? Everyday Life! Likewise, a person who has never known sound won't be pissed off by a lack of it, and legs can be pretty damn flexible with practice. The adaptability of humans is something to be amazed by, not ignored. I believe Lilly addressed that issue in her route.
This is not the point. I have addressed it above. The characters are too perfect, immaculate, friendly, nice etc. Where are their fallacies, their missteps?
encrypted12345 wrote:Hisao is the one who's the least used to being disabled, so of course, he's the one who's most worried about being disabled.
and in the one moment in which he faces death, the only thing he can think about are eyes of Emi. Nothing in terms of PTSD or other psychological effects. Never a real and convincing panic after he pushed himself in the runnings ... and also not later when he forgot to take his medication and visits the nurse again; I do not even want to start on the Lilly path. Rose-coloured glasses as far as the eyes can see.
GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:For example: How does Rin open doors? Are all the doors at Yamaku just push doors, and does her dorm have a key? It'd be interesting for little things like that to pop up in the story. Not that they don't, but they're just rare.
I have a better one:
how does Rin go the toilet, once she stays in the studio? She is alone there. Hisao is not there, Emi is not there ... so?
Nekken wrote:This. One of the things the developers were careful to avoid is the old (and, to many people with disabilities, offensive) cliche that the protagonist has to "help" others find ways to deal with their disabilities. They did this by inverting the cliche: the girls all found ways to deal with their disabilities long ago, and the only ones with any trauma connected to them are the ones who actually acquired them through trauma. The one who needs help is actually the protagonist.
You are missing the point. They are there, they should at least be discussed in the game in one way or another, because they do not vanish all of a sudden. In my review I did not imply that it is up to Hisao to save them in one way or another. You cannot feel sympathetic with someone, should this person remain on a shallow level in terms of the persona/character. Look at my second post.
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

Mirage_GSM wrote:
The game mostly ends once you have the girl.
Still don't quite understand why you think that.
As I pointed out in three of the five parts they start going out way before the end. In the other two it is only shortly before the end, but it is also when the plot-relevant story is resolved. It wouldn't make any sense to continue at that point.
I have explained it above. Consistency is an important aspect to me and such cannot be found here. In the Lilly plot they talk about the second festival -- but it is never celebrated there. In other plots it is not even brought up.
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. ... In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction. What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way. Showing some of them, but not in order to exploit their struggles for a lame joke or the like, but in order to show how it can be dealt with. The game hardly ever touches this aspect.
The point is that you aren't supposed to pity them. None of the girls would either want or need pity, so why should the VN try to depict them that way?
As to why the VN doesn't show their "struggles": they don't struggle. They have some difficulties doing some things, like Lilly needing help to go shopping or Rin being unable to peel oranges, which are addressed in the VN. other than that they have learned to live with the way they are, and that something like that is possible is the message that KS is trying to convey.
Showing the girly agonizing over their disabilities would completely negate that message.
How can you feel empathetic for someone who has a streamlined character? Life is struggle ... always. Outside of what you have written they appear immaculate. How reasonable is this? The game gives the impression of an Utopia that has become real.
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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by Mirage_GSM »

oneyoudontknow wrote:I have explained it above. Consistency is an important aspect to me and such cannot be found here. In the Lilly plot they talk about the second festival -- but it is never celebrated there. In other plots it is not even brought up.
No, they do not celebrate Tanabata in Lilly's story arc. Hisao is in the hospital at that time. (That's even mentioned in the text.)
In the other story arcs except for Shizune's it doesn't come up because they end before that. Even if they didn't, maybe Rin or Emi just wouldn't be interested in festivals like that and decide not to go.
I also value consistency, and KS does have some minor things that are inconsistent between the paths (like for exaple Iwanako's letter arriving at different times) but none of them drew me out of immersion.
Mirage_GSM wrote:How can you feel empathetic for someone who has a streamlined character? Life is struggle ... always. Outside of what you have written they appear immaculate. How reasonable is this? The game gives the impression of an Utopia that has become real.
Well, I thought their characters were fine and not streamlined at all (I'm not sure "streamlined" is a word I would use for characters at all, but nvm...) Anyway you don't seem to like the characters, and I regret that since you obviously couldn't enjoy KS as much as most of the people here because of it.
I hope you'll find other VNs that are more to your liking.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.
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encrypted12345
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by encrypted12345 »

Dammit! I'm being ninja'd left and right. I'll just post what I already typed out and add more later.
[shimmie]2580[/shimmie]

... *Stretches*

*Plays appropriate debating music*
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:That said, I'm not sure if you've been reading the same VN as the rest of us...
Neither "general reduction of female characters to sexual objects" nor painting "a blind person... as someone who waits to get laid" are things I'd bring into connection with KS on my own.
But you can look at it this way. The game mostly ends once you have the girl.
The Shizune one leaves open a perspective, while the others stop somewhere ... and then nothing.
Unlike a lot of other aspects in the game the reasons why Misha entered is rather buried...
Just because a romance story ends because the romance-based conflict is resolved doesn't mean that the girls are sex objects. You just mocked almost everything in the romance genre.

Furthermore, not every story is an epic saga dealing with a whole person's life that ends in death. Sometimes, stories are only about a short, fleeting moment in youth. That's the type of story Katawa Shoujo is. What happens next? Well, that's another story! All stories have to find a place to end, and most of the routes decided to end them when the romance conflict was resolved.

... The game implied Misha wasn't disabled. It didn't confirm because it wasn't important. To the plot. At all.
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Nekken wrote:I'm having some trouble understanding a few of your arguments, and I think you may be defining some terms very differently from what I'm used to hearing. Could you please clarify two points?

1) You mention not being able to "empathize" with the characters, but the surrounding text sounds like you expected to pity them, didn't, and took that pity for lack of empathy. Do I understand that correctly?
1:
No. What the game fails to deliver is a convincing depiction of someone who is blind or suffering from some other kind of disability. It is too nice. Too positive. There is never some real kind of crisis.

Example:
Lilly says in the Hanako branch, that the school is far from perfect and has cliques and groups, which would create some 'trouble' or so; bullying or what not. Such is never there. There is hardly ever a reference to what is going on in the school; Hanako's incident or the epileptic fit are two examples for the contrary. The player is never in contact with this ... is never immersed on such a level as to experience it and to see the reactions of the 'characters'.

Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. Why does Lilly never appear in an non-immaculate kind of way? To name an obvious example. In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction. What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way. Showing some of them, but not in order to exploit their struggles for a lame joke or the like, but in order to show how it can be dealt with. The game hardly ever touches this aspect.

What does the game give you at the end of the day? Are you able to understand someone better who is blind?
First things first. Depressing works are not necessarily realistic. Cynical works are not necessarily realistic. Just because Katawa Shoujo is happy and optimistic doesn't mean that it is unrealistic. Furthermore, we were never supposed to pity these girls. We were supposed to acknowledge them as fellow and equal human beings. Hanako's route in particular outlined why one-sided pity is bad for a romantic relationship.

Second, it's not like they ignored the struggles at all. Hisao had to read Lilly her menu, peel Rin oranges, help Emi reach something she couldn't because her prosthetic legs wouldn't let her jump, translate for Shizune, and hide Hanako when that antique store owner got scared of her. Why didn't the game elaborate on them? Because like I said, these girls were long used to their disabilities and had developed work-arounds for them long, long before they met Hisao. About the clique thing... notice how all the heroines aren't necessarily all buddy-buddy.

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, I can understand that a blind person would be annoyed as fuck if I took too much pity on them for their blindness and started coddling them. I can understand that a blind person wants to be treated as a person, not as a pet. Did you even listen to Lilly? She specifically calls the reader out on this.
oneyoudontknow wrote: Well, once you are together with a girl, you should at least get a better impression of the struggles or? Be it the one of the girl or any other person in the school. Is this part of the game ... hardly.
As I had written in the review, the first scene with Emi is unconvincing ... on so many levels. Especially in terms of near death experiences. Again, everything remains nice and friendly. In some respect it might be proper to refer to the style of b/w films, because it is rare that the main protagonist dies; look at what someone like Buster Keaton performs and what strange situations he had been able to escape.
... Everyone reacts to near-death experiences differently. Many people force themselves to forget and refuse to let any effects of the trauma to noticeably leak out like Emi. The only reason I can think of that you may think that Emi was unrealistic is that you simply haven't met enough people in your life.
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encrypted12345
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by encrypted12345 »

oneyoudontknow wrote:This is not the point. I have addressed it above. The characters are too perfect, immaculate, friendly, nice etc. Where are their fallacies, their missteps?
You honestly couldn't see their flaws? Lilly was too reserved and tended to hold everything inside. Because of that, she gets highly emotional when stressed such as when Hisao gets a heart attack. That's why she showed so much emotion in her confession scene.

Emi CRIED in her dreams every night. She's not perfect at all! She clearly suffers from PTSD even if it doesn't show up in her daytime behavior.

Hanako was scared of the glares of others. Looks of fear and anxiety can be scary. She also didn't want to be coddled by her friends and wanted to be treated as a person.

Rin has communication issues. She wants others to understand her through her art, but the subjectivity of art prevents her from communicating who she is.

Shizune also has communication issues due to her deafness. She's blunt because that's the only way she can get her point across. She treats everything as a game and has difficulty in understanding other people because of that. ... You know what? This thread can explain Shizune a lot better than I can. Gotta love the Shizune Taliban. :lol:

I realize that the flaws of the characters are a bit subtle. However, you claimed to have done careful analysis, so I'm a bit miffed.

One more thing. The reason I am so passionate about defending the realism of the heroines in this game because if I said that they were unrealistic, then I would have to admit that the personalities of the cousins I have grown up with and me were unrealistic. ... so yeah.

We seem to have a disagreement over what is realistic and what is not. Please read this, this, and especially this
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Tbarey
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by Tbarey »

I have been debating on whether I should put my two cents in to this discussion. To my fellow forum members thank you for reading my mind and posting your comments, but there are a few points that I still feel need to be addressed.

Oneyoudontknow I’m not sure that you realize the implications of the following.
“the general reduction of the female characters to sexual objects for Hisao, ………… Is this how we should see a blind person? As someone who waits to get laid?”

Did you mean to say that women in loving relationships that involves sex are being reduced to sexual objects that are waiting to get laid? I’m sure that my wife would be insulted by this implication. And what does her being blind have anything to do with it?
“The exploitative nature of the game cannot be spirited and discussed away.”
Where did you get this from? The KS that I read had none of this. This statement to me comes across as naive. If you find KS exploitative I’m afraid to see you encounter some thing that actually exploits women.
“Having approached this game with a rather blank mindset and having hardly ever played such a game before, my point of view might differ considerably from those who have a larger amount of experience on this issue. Nevertheless, there might be less bias on my side.”
Finally why did you feel it necessary to include this statement? It seems to me that you were subconsciously trying to defend a biased position before anyone had even read you review.
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Nekken
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by Nekken »

oneyoudontknow wrote:1:
No. What the game fails to deliver is a convincing depiction of someone who is blind or suffering from some other kind of disability. It is too nice. Too positive. There is never some real kind of crisis.
It sounds like you were expecting to see some kind of disability-related crisis in each path. What sorts of things were you thinking of?
Lilly says in the Hanako branch, that the school is far from perfect and has cliques and groups, which would create some 'trouble' or so; bullying or what not. Such is never there. There is hardly ever a reference to what is going on in the school; Hanako's incident or the epileptic fit are two examples for the contrary. The player is never in contact with this ... is never immersed on such a level as to experience it and to see the reactions of the 'characters'.
Hisao is never particularly big in the social scene of his school, it's true. The closest he ever gets is joining the Student Council, and even that is mostly behind-the-scenes work. But given that he transferred into the school halfway through his senior year, I'm not sure that's necessarily unrealistic: he hasn't had much time to integrate, he isn't going to get much time to integrate because he will graduate in less than a year, and everyone in the school would know this. That doesn't leave much opportunity to get into the loop, so to speak.
Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. Why does Lilly never appear in an non-immaculate kind of way?
I'm not sure I understand: what do you mean by "non-immaculate"?
To name an obvious example. In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction.
But the game wasn't trying to get you to pity them: quite the opposite, in fact. You aren't supposed to pity them, and a significant part of the game is devoted to telling you why you shouldn't.
What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way.
Three of the girls -Shizune, Lilly, and Rin- have been dealing with their disabilities their whole lives. Especially in Lilly's and Rin's cases, dealing with the world around them has become almost a background detail: their efforts are not insignificant, but they are automatic, and not the sort of thing they'd think to call out unless specifically asked. Shizune's disability presents more difficulty in dealing with people than with things, but as her path progresses they actually do touch on this.

Emi is a different case, having acquired her disability later in life than any of the others. Even in her case, though, she has had eight years to learn how to deal with her disability, and she's stated to have put in a lot of up-front effort into doing things like re-learning how to walk. By the time of the game, that effort has paid off, but there are still things she has to deal with: we see what happens, for example, when she doesn't take adequate care of what remains of her legs.

Hanako is another case entirely, as the only one who really hasn't dealt with her disability (though even she is trying to). It's also interesting in that things get much, much worse before they get better (if they ever do), and it's all the player's fault. Although you help her achieve a sort of catharsis by the end, that's really the only thing you do to help her, and then only after you've managed to mess both of you up rather severely.
What does the game give you at the end of the day? Are you able to understand someone better who is blind?
Marginally, yes, but as far as this goes I found more value in the questions the game leaves unanswered. How did Lilly plan on getting back to the house from the cornfield? Rin specifically mentions having trouble with shirts: what about pants, especially given that she wears the boys' uniform? How did Shizune learn sign language in a household (and, sadly, educational system) so hostile to the idea? The game touches on the basics of their situations, then asks enough questions to leave the reader wanting to know more, and I think this is a good thing.
Falling in love is a volcano. Being in love is a kotatsu.
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

I will reply to the answers at the end of the week ... there is a bit too much to do at the moment and other aspects need a bit more focus than this discussion here.
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by encrypted12345 »

oneyoudontknow wrote:I will reply to the answers at the end of the week ... there is a bit too much to do at the moment and other aspects need a bit more focus than this discussion here.
Thank you for thinking about and arguing our responses. Sorry if we all seem malicious towards your opinion; we're not trying to be offensive. I appreciate having a proper debate partner. Your reasons for disliking this VN aren't 100% irrational although it does feel like you were expecting a different genre or something. That and, don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help but sense a little naivete...

Anyways, welcome to the Katawa Shoujo forums!!
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

encrypted12345 wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:I will reply to the answers at the end of the week ... there is a bit too much to do at the moment and other aspects need a bit more focus than this discussion here.
Thank you for thinking about and arguing our responses. Sorry if we all seem malicious towards your opinion; we're not trying to be offensive. I appreciate having a proper debate partner. Your reasons for disliking this VN aren't 100% irrational although it does feel like you were expecting a different genre or something. That and, don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help but sense a little naivete...

Anyways, welcome to the Katawa Shoujo forums!!
I will reply to this first, because I would like to clarify some things:

A critic does not have to like things/artifacts/whatever. This is also my position. When you take a look on the reviews in my magazine, then you will notice a certain aspect: I am critical about various elements... While I can like a certain voice manipulation on one album, it tends to annoy me in another one. A review is never meant to be objective, it is never meant to cover all facets ... but it provides a certain glimpse of some kind.

What made me, or at least encouraged, to write the review is the entry at Wikipedia. I despise endless pointless praising, the general lack of critical analysis and questioning about what a certain piece of art is all about. Wikipedia is a failed experiment ... again ... in a strange kind of way. To go into details would derail this thread, though; Germans might know what I am talking about.

Malicious discussion??? I had to chuckle when I read this ...
http://www.heise.de/tp/foren/S-Sollte-A ... 3333/list/
This is a malicious discussion ...
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

Mirage_GSM wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:I have explained it above. Consistency is an important aspect to me and such cannot be found here. In the Lilly plot they talk about the second festival -- but it is never celebrated there. In other plots it is not even brought up.
No, they do not celebrate Tanabata in Lilly's story arc. Hisao is in the hospital at that time. (That's even mentioned in the text.)
In the other story arcs except for Shizune's it doesn't come up because they end before that. Even if they didn't, maybe Rin or Emi just wouldn't be interested in festivals like that and decide not to go.
I also value consistency, and KS does have some minor things that are inconsistent between the paths (like for exaple Iwanako's letter arriving at different times) but none of them drew me out of immersion.
You can argue as much as you want ... the absence is a flaw. There is also the aspect that the running festival is not mentioned in the Shizune branch, which is especially strange, because Hisao could have been involved in this project as well.
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:How can you feel empathetic for someone who has a streamlined character? Life is struggle ... always. Outside of what you have written they appear immaculate. How reasonable is this? The game gives the impression of an Utopia that has become real.
Well, I thought their characters were fine and not streamlined at all (I'm not sure "streamlined" is a word I would use for characters at all, but nvm...) Anyway you don't seem to like the characters, and I regret that since you obviously couldn't enjoy KS as much as most of the people here because of it.
I hope you'll find other VNs that are more to your liking.
see here:
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?p=89066#p89066
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Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

encrypted12345 wrote:Dammit! I'm being ninja'd left and right. I'll just post what I already typed out and add more later.
[shimmie]2580[/shimmie]

... *Stretches*

*Plays appropriate debating music*
Let me help you with this:

Mind clear now? ;)
encrypted12345 wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:That said, I'm not sure if you've been reading the same VN as the rest of us...
Neither "general reduction of female characters to sexual objects" nor painting "a blind person... as someone who waits to get laid" are things I'd bring into connection with KS on my own.
But you can look at it this way. The game mostly ends once you have the girl.
The Shizune one leaves open a perspective, while the others stop somewhere ... and then nothing.
Unlike a lot of other aspects in the game the reasons why Misha entered is rather buried...
Just because a romance story ends because the romance-based conflict is resolved doesn't mean that the girls are sex objects. You just mocked almost everything in the romance genre.

Furthermore, not every story is an epic saga dealing with a whole person's life that ends in death. Sometimes, stories are only about a short, fleeting moment in youth. That's the type of story Katawa Shoujo is. What happens next? Well, that's another story! All stories have to find a place to end, and most of the routes decided to end them when the romance conflict was resolved.

... The game implied Misha wasn't disabled. It didn't confirm because it wasn't important. To the plot. At all.
Again ... consistency. I have explored this to some degree in this thread already. I hate to repeat myself.

The only path in which you can feel that anything has been resolved is the Emi path. Furthermore, the focus on the girls, while a venture away from them is penalized by death, as well as the limited view on the whole scenario, the limitation in terms of the characters with which the player can interact, leaves a bitter taste in end, because it feels like the libido is placed above romance due to the way the stories end. Would have the erotic scenes been placed in a different kind of way, their impression would have resulted in a different (overall) conclusion.
encrypted12345 wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Nekken wrote:I'm having some trouble understanding a few of your arguments, and I think you may be defining some terms very differently from what I'm used to hearing. Could you please clarify two points?

1) You mention not being able to "empathize" with the characters, but the surrounding text sounds like you expected to pity them, didn't, and took that pity for lack of empathy. Do I understand that correctly?
1:
No. What the game fails to deliver is a convincing depiction of someone who is blind or suffering from some other kind of disability. It is too nice. Too positive. There is never some real kind of crisis.

Example:
Lilly says in the Hanako branch, that the school is far from perfect and has cliques and groups, which would create some 'trouble' or so; bullying or what not. Such is never there. There is hardly ever a reference to what is going on in the school; Hanako's incident or the epileptic fit are two examples for the contrary. The player is never in contact with this ... is never immersed on such a level as to experience it and to see the reactions of the 'characters'.

Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. Why does Lilly never appear in an non-immaculate kind of way? To name an obvious example. In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction. What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way. Showing some of them, but not in order to exploit their struggles for a lame joke or the like, but in order to show how it can be dealt with. The game hardly ever touches this aspect.

What does the game give you at the end of the day? Are you able to understand someone better who is blind?
First things first. Depressing works are not necessarily realistic. Cynical works are not necessarily realistic. Just because Katawa Shoujo is happy and optimistic doesn't mean that it is unrealistic. Furthermore, we were never supposed to pity these girls. We were supposed to acknowledge them as fellow and equal human beings. Hanako's route in particular outlined why one-sided pity is bad for a romantic relationship.

Second, it's not like they ignored the struggles at all. Hisao had to read Lilly her menu, peel Rin oranges, help Emi reach something she couldn't because her prosthetic legs wouldn't let her jump, translate for Shizune, and hide Hanako when that antique store owner got scared of her. Why didn't the game elaborate on them? Because like I said, these girls were long used to their disabilities and had developed work-arounds for them long, long before they met Hisao. About the clique thing... notice how all the heroines aren't necessarily all buddy-buddy.

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, I can understand that a blind person would be annoyed as fuck if I took too much pity on them for their blindness and started coddling them. I can understand that a blind person wants to be treated as a person, not as a pet. Did you even listen to Lilly? She specifically calls the reader out on this.
Positivism must be rejected.
http://www.amazon.com/Smile-Die-Positiv ... 01&sr=8-12
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/13/ ... ight_sided

If everything is wonderful and nice and wonderful, how do you expect to move someone? A drama, and this game has basically such a setting, is not merely reduced to this positive vibe, which flows through every line of the game. The character remain shallow, because they are not allowed to fail. They are not allowed to get exposed and shown their limits, because the moment before this happens, the game slams you in the face and screams: it (will) is all be fine.
encrypted12345 wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote: Well, once you are together with a girl, you should at least get a better impression of the struggles or? Be it the one of the girl or any other person in the school. Is this part of the game ... hardly.
As I had written in the review, the first scene with Emi is unconvincing ... on so many levels. Especially in terms of near death experiences. Again, everything remains nice and friendly. In some respect it might be proper to refer to the style of b/w films, because it is rare that the main protagonist dies; look at what someone like Buster Keaton performs and what strange situations he had been able to escape.
... Everyone reacts to near-death experiences differently. Many people force themselves to forget and refuse to let any effects of the trauma to noticeably leak out like Emi. The only reason I can think of that you may think that Emi was unrealistic is that you simply haven't met enough people in your life.
One word:
PTSD
You may want to look this up ... especially in terms of short term and long term effects. The younger you are the more graven the effects tend to be, due to a lack of mental/psychological stability.
oneyoudontknow
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:03 am

Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

encrypted12345 wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:This is not the point. I have addressed it above. The characters are too perfect, immaculate, friendly, nice etc. Where are their fallacies, their missteps?
You honestly couldn't see their flaws? Lilly was too reserved and tended to hold everything inside. Because of that, she gets highly emotional when stressed such as when Hisao gets a heart attack. That's why she showed so much emotion in her confession scene.

Emi CRIED in her dreams every night. She's not perfect at all! She clearly suffers from PTSD even if it doesn't show up in her daytime behavior.

Hanako was scared of the glares of others. Looks of fear and anxiety can be scary. She also didn't want to be coddled by her friends and wanted to be treated as a person.

Rin has communication issues. She wants others to understand her through her art, but the subjectivity of art prevents her from communicating who she is.

Shizune also has communication issues due to her deafness. She's blunt because that's the only way she can get her point across. She treats everything as a game and has difficulty in understanding other people because of that. ... You know what? This thread can explain Shizune a lot better than I can. Gotta love the Shizune Taliban. :lol:

I realize that the flaws of the characters are a bit subtle. However, you claimed to have done careful analysis, so I'm a bit miffed.

One more thing. The reason I am so passionate about defending the realism of the heroines in this game because if I said that they were unrealistic, then I would have to admit that the personalities of the cousins I have grown up with and me were unrealistic. ... so yeah.

We seem to have a disagreement over what is realistic and what is not. Please read this, this, and especially this
as I had written before:
Positivism must be rejected.
http://www.amazon.com/Smile-Die-Positiv ... 01&sr=8-12
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/13/ ... ight_sided

If everything is wonderful and nice and wonderful, how do you expect to move someone? A drama, and this game has basically such a setting, is not merely reduced to this positive vibe, which flows through every line of the game. The character remain shallow, because they are not allowed to fail. They are not allowed to get exposed and shown their limits, because the moment before this happens, the game slams you in the face and screams: it (will) is all be fine.

Please, do not bring up the Lilly plot... that thing is so ridiculous that I could hardly force myself to play it through. If you are unable to count 1 and 1 together in the vacation house and come up with a sum that is at least 3 then I cannot help you. Sorry!
oneyoudontknow
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:03 am

Re: Review on Katawa Shoujo

Post by oneyoudontknow »

Tbarey wrote:I have been debating on whether I should put my two cents in to this discussion. To my fellow forum members thank you for reading my mind and posting your comments, but there are a few points that I still feel need to be addressed.

Oneyoudontknow I’m not sure that you realize the implications of the following.
“the general reduction of the female characters to sexual objects for Hisao, ………… Is this how we should see a blind person? As someone who waits to get laid?”

Did you mean to say that women in loving relationships that involves sex are being reduced to sexual objects that are waiting to get laid? I’m sure that my wife would be insulted by this implication. And what does her being blind have anything to do with it?
Absolutely not. Many people who are using Linux are familiar with Knoppix and the creator of this distribution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Knopper

You do not bring up psychological questions. Why does A 'do act #'? Just think this through in terms of the game. The result: an endless stream of positivism ... nauseating.
Tbarey wrote:
“The exploitative nature of the game cannot be spirited and discussed away.”
Where did you get this from? The KS that I read had none of this. This statement to me comes across as naive. If you find KS exploitative I’m afraid to see you encounter some thing that actually exploits women.
see here:
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?p=89069#p89069

it has to do with how the game flows and ends. The emphasis is too much on the libido and less on the romance.
Tbarey wrote:
“Having approached this game with a rather blank mindset and having hardly ever played such a game before, my point of view might differ considerably from those who have a larger amount of experience on this issue. Nevertheless, there might be less bias on my side.”
Finally why did you feel it necessary to include this statement? It seems to me that you were subconsciously trying to defend a biased position before anyone had even read you review.
I wanted to make clear where I am coming from. I have received criticism for this before, but this is the way I tend to handle things. It is not apologetic, but simply how things are handled by me. A lot of writer do not reveal their position, their point of origin; and it is therefore difficult to place their writing into a broader context. In case someone writes on Britney Spears all the time, this person might have some difficulties in covering goregrind, right?

Edit:
my magazine is generally on music ... and will stay this way. Think about this sentence also something to avoid confusion.
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