Katawa Shoujo Forums

I'm not sure how I feel about the content -- though the character seems likeable enough, it'd take heroic effort to avoid telling a story about her that boils down to Babby's First Existentialism. (Not that I have anything against Existentialism, mind.) The format seems like a good one for this kind of thing, though. The pattern gives a sense of structure, and the varied lengths of each vignette keep it from seeming too much like an unusually verbose outline.

Bagheera wrote:

themocaw wrote:Looking back on this one, I am completely dissatisfied with it, but will keep it up as is.

You shouldn't be, as it's quite good. My only complaint is that she died too soon! She should have had years, and it sounds like she died in a matter of weeks.

I'm constrained by the format, which limits me to a strict word count, but in my head canon, "It was the last time I saw her alive," would be followed by an indication that a few years later, Hisao heard that she had passed away.

Bagheera wrote:Thinking about it, I think the drabble approach is a poor one for this story. Enomoto, as you've described her, is a fantastic character. But she needs more depth, and drabbles aren't cutting it. If you expand the story and the timeframe (say, 20 years or so) I think you'll be on to something truly awesome. Please consider an extended version!

I'm considering it. Not sure if it'll go anywhere.

CNB wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about the content -- though the character seems likeable enough, it'd take heroic effort to avoid telling a story about her that boils down to Babby's First Existentialism. (Not that I have anything against Existentialism, mind.) The format seems like a good one for this kind of thing, though. The pattern gives a sense of structure, and the varied lengths of each vignette keep it from seeming too much like an unusually verbose outline.

That's the real issue here, and the source of a lot of my discontent. The second source is that I soon realized that what I'd written overly focused on the disability, which is at odds with the mission of Katawa Shoujo. I don't want to just retread ground that Narcissu has already done brilliantly.

Food for thought, but I'm glad some people got some use out of my muse's insistence I write this.

Liked it a lot (Saki being a mere April's Fool joke is the biggest disappointment the KS devs have given me) but it's not without some gripes from me.

As already observed, not only the illness consumes her too rapidly, it isn't even consistent. At the beginning, she says about a life expectancy that seems coherent with Friedrich's Ataxia, then she withers away in the space of months. AFAIK there are several forms of ataxia that can lead to death in a range from a few years to decades, but even if Saki suffered one of the most acute forms, her condition degraded too quickly anyway.

Also, with her illness tragic enough in itself, I wonder if it was necessary to give Saki a past that rivals Hanako's, if it isn't even worse because she won't even have the time to shape a better future for herself. In fact, by the end she's dying in desperation, and the relationship with Hisao may have even amplified the sentiment, because she drew someone so close to her while she was going to die so early.

Thinking about that, could Hisao and Saki have a lifelong relationship even if they wanted? Imagine Hisao loving her so much to promise being always at her side for the rest of her life. Knowing that your love will go away slowly and painfully is already tough if you are perfectly healthy, but Hisao's condition could literally kill him any moment. What would be of Saki if she happened to survive him?

That said, I agree with Pl4to that, even with the constant veil of sadness her disability brings about, Saki's story has not to be just tragedy. Even if she wasn't going to live past her 20s, it would be still enough to make good of the time she has.


Is there something about the reason the old Fashion Club was disbanded that I missed or didn't read between the lines? Had Saki's disability something to do with it, in the sense the members were uncomfortable in becoming close to her, knowing her mortality? I thought that she has become so adamant in telling about her illness and its consequencies as an unconscious way to keep people from getting too close to her, or as sort of a test to see if they can appreciate her beyond that.

I can imagine the stir at Yamaku after the incident with those punks, Hisao must have risked a lot (since it's implied he fought back). Nurse won't be happy.

The last lines, probably a dialogue Hisao remembers after she's dead, I can see them coming from Saki during an intimate moment with him, like after a H-scene.

I like this story very much (like all of your others), except for this part:

“I d-d-d-don’t want you to come back here. I don’t want you to see me like this. I want you to remember me when I was beautiful. Not like this.”

It seems to contradict everything you have established about her character up to this point.
To me it feels like she is simply very depressed at that moment and might regret sending Hisao away soon after - which only makes it worse that Hisao complies without even arguing.
Yes, I know that committing to a relationship like that is hard - maybe impossible for a teenager like Hisao, but still he accepts her request as if he'd been waiting for it all along...

I was just going to respond with how the following quote made me wince since I know how bloody painful that is;
“Oh. I fell down and smashed my teeth against the curb. It hurt like hell.”

But damn, for 2400 words you left a sour coppery feeling in my mouth.

Damn fine example of how to give people JUST ENOUGH of the feels to double take.

/r/ing Sakis "good" end. (I want my Kana Imouto "Today I saw the ocean, I'm not afraid anymore" ending...Ahh hell... Just remembering that line alone gave me the feels)

Zoram wrote:Liked it a lot (Saki being a mere April's Fool joke is the biggest disappointment the KS devs have given me) but it's not without some gripes from me.

As already observed, not only the illness consumes her too rapidly, it isn't even consistent. At the beginning, she says about a life expectancy that seems coherent with Friedrich's Ataxia, then she withers away in the space of months. AFAIK there are several forms of ataxia that can lead to death in a range from a few years to decades, but even if Saki suffered one of the most acute forms, her condition degraded too quickly anyway.

I figured that what happened in that scene was probably an acceleration of her condition that prevents her from going back to school or something. She's still got years/decades left, but in a greatly reduced condition, possibly confined to a wheelchair now, and is driving her "boyfriend" away out of depression.

Also, with her illness tragic enough in itself, I wonder if it was necessary to give Saki a past that rivals Hanako's, if it isn't even worse because she won't even have the time to shape a better future for herself. In fact, by the end she's dying in desperation, and the relationship with Hisao may have even amplified the sentiment, because she drew someone so close to her while she was going to die so early.

Oh, it gets even worse. Here's the head-canon I developed during the course of writing this.

Saki's mother ran off with another man when she was five years old, and her father wound up taking her in. At around the age of ten or twelve, she starts developing symptoms. In the process of diagnosis, the doctor reveals to Saki's father that genetically, it's most likely that Saki is not, in fact, his daughter, and she's actually the daughter of the man she ran off with. Somehow, Saki winds up finding this out a couple years later: maybe someone lets something slip, maybe she does a little research on her own and finds out. In any case, it's a double whammy: not only is she going to die young, but the only parent who ever loved her isn't actually her real dad, and she finds this all out during a bad period of her life socially. She winds up subverting the entire idea of, "live as if you'd die tomorrow," and starts acting like none of her decisions will have any consequences.

The level of acting out might vary, but perhaps includes a criminal record of some sort. At the very least, it should be a bunch of bad decisions that she ends up regretting later on in life. Her dad can't reach her, the cops can't reach her, her friends are scared of her, she's clearly on a quick road to self-destruction.

Anyway, towards the end of her time in junior high school, her father, who's been struggling with cancer, suddenly has his condition worsen and starts to die. If you want to really twist the knife, it could be because he was neglecting his own treatments to pay for his daughter's, but I think that crosses the line. Anyway, on his deathbed, he makes one last effort to try and each out to her, asking her, "How do you want to be remembered?" It doesn't matter to him that he will die early: he looks back on his life and is generally satisfied. His only regret is his daughter. It might be at this point that he says what becomes Saki's catchphrase: "Every day is a gift, every hour is golden, every minute is a diamond. Don't waste it."

End result is a slow, but desperate struggle to turn her life around and change the way she'll be remembered. The problem is twofold: First, her past has a lot of inertia, and keeps catching up to her. Second, it's completely hollow. Saki's trying to change the way other people will remember her, not trying to change the way she sees herself. She's making a desperate attempt to live like one of those "brave dying people" who show up in those inspirational stories named after poultry soup, and it's not working.

Here's the kicker: Hisao doesn't help. She's trying to turn him into a project: "My life will have had meaning if I can make this guy see the beauty of life," and playing the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" archetype, and it's all fake. Misha and Shizune were there last year for when she tried to pull something similar that wound up breaking up the old fashion club. They see this going down the same path. Misha being Misha tries to warn Hisao away, but Shizune. . . Shizune knows what it's like to have your bad decisions from last year haunt you, and maybe she sees that Hisao might actually be able to help.

I just had an inspiration: The only way to have a good ending with Saki is for Hisao to break up with her. The relationship began on false pretenses, and if it's to survive, it needs to restart from scratch under true ones.

Food for thought.

Thinking about that, could Hisao and Saki have a lifelong relationship even if they wanted? Imagine Hisao loving her so much to promise being always at her side for the rest of her life. Knowing that your love will go away slowly and painfully is already tough if you are perfectly healthy, but Hisao's condition could literally kill him any moment. What would be of Saki if she happened to survive him?

The same applies to all the girls, I guess, but yeah.

That said, I agree with Pl4to that, even with the constant veil of sadness her disability brings about, Saki's story has not to be just tragedy. Even if she wasn't going to live past her 20s, it would be still enough to make good of the time she has.

My thought on this one, as said above, is that if I continued this from a writing exercise into a true story, I'd put the focus less on her disability and more on the idea of subverting the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" archetype. I imagine her as being the anti Zooey-Deschanel: she comes into the life of a depressed and angry young man and brings energy, joy, and hope into his life, and it turns out to be the worst thing that ever happened to both of them. I think that's a story that would stand on its own without her disability.

Is there something about the reason the old Fashion Club was disbanded that I missed or didn't read between the lines? Had Saki's disability something to do with it, in the sense the members were uncomfortable in becoming close to her, knowing her mortality? I thought that she has become so adamant in telling about her illness and its consequencies as an unconscious way to keep people from getting too close to her, or as sort of a test to see if they can appreciate her beyond that.

I'm actually not sure why it happened, but I'm sure that there's any number of reasons that could be come up with. I mostly thought it up as an incident that would have happened the year before that Shizune and Misha would remember that Hisao wouldn't know about, which prompts Misha to warn him to be careful about her.

I can imagine the stir at Yamaku after the incident with those punks, Hisao must have risked a lot (since it's implied he fought back). Nurse won't be happy.

No he won't.

The last lines, probably a dialogue Hisao remembers after she's dead, I can see them coming from Saki during an intimate moment with him, like after a H-scene.

Could be.
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Mirage_GSM wrote:To me it feels like she is simply very depressed at that moment and might regret sending Hisao away soon after - which only makes it worse that Hisao complies without even arguing. Yes, I know that committing to a relationship like that is hard - maybe impossible for a teenager like Hisao, but still he accepts her request as if he'd been waiting for it all along...

The implication here is leading towards a bad end: It's the ending where Hisao is going through the motions out of a sense of duty. The peeled apple and knife is meant to symbolize that he's wound up in the same role that Iwanako took towards him. Fridge brilliance: perhaps that's why this setup focuses on Saki's disabilities so much: it's what happens if Hisao can't see past the condition and bad ends out. Dunno. On the other hand, it could just be a failed experiment.

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johnmalkovich wrote:I was just going to respond with how the following quote made me wince since I know how bloody painful that is;
“Oh. I fell down and smashed my teeth against the curb. It hurt like hell.”

Yeah, it is bloody painful.

(She didn't lose her teeth smashing them against the curb, by the way.)

themocaw wrote:I figured that what happened in that scene was probably an acceleration of her condition that prevents her from going back to school or something. She's still got years/decades left, but in a greatly reduced condition, possibly confined to a wheelchair now, and is driving her "boyfriend" away out of depression.

I don't think it works like that; if she has years left (let alone decades) he'd have plenty of chances yet to "remember [her] while [she's] beautiful."

My thought on this one, as said above, is that if I continued this from a writing exercise into a true story, I'd put the focus less on her disability and more on the idea of subverting the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" archetype. I imagine her as being the anti Zooey-Deschanel: she comes into the life of a depressed and angry young man and brings energy, joy, and hope into his life, and it turns out to be the worst thing that ever happened to both of them. I think that's a story that would stand on its own without her disability.

I don't think that holds up. Yes, her persona is false, but it's also the only thing she can do. The alternative is to give in to despair and just be miserable, and that is definitely worse. Also, why would this be so awful for Hisao? He can't help her, plays along with her false persona, and . . . at absolute worst is back to square one.

That said I think his leaving her to die alone was probably the worst thing he could have done for her, since that's when she needs the most support. Letting her die with dignity does not preclude helping her when she's suffering.

The implication here is leading towards a bad end: It's the ending where Hisao is going through the motions out of a sense of duty. The peeled apple and knife is meant to symbolize that he's wound up in the same role that Iwanako took towards him. Fridge brilliance: perhaps that's why this setup focuses on Saki's disabilities so much: it's what happens if Hisao can't see past the condition and bad ends out. Dunno. On the other hand, it could just be a failed experiment.

That does fit for a bad end, yeah. Now it falls on you to write a good one!

themocaw wrote:(She didn't lose her teeth smashing them against the curb, by the way.)

So, more like, "I slipped and fell... onto the other guy's fist."

CNB wrote:

themocaw wrote:(She didn't lose her teeth smashing them against the curb, by the way.)

So, more like, "I slipped and fell... onto the other guy's fist."

Let me clarify: she did loose her teeth smashing them into the curb. She didn't get there on her own.

themocaw wrote:Let me clarify: she did loose her teeth smashing them into the curb. She didn't get there on her own.

Saki is so fucking punk-rock.

I figured that what happened in that scene was probably an acceleration of her condition that prevents her from going back to school or something. She's still got years/decades left, but in a greatly reduced condition, possibly confined to a wheelchair now, and is driving her "boyfriend" away out of depression.

Still doesn’t work that way, AFAIK. I do not know that much about the illness (or better I don’t remember much, since it’s years since I read about it) but I don’t think it goes with such sudden worsening, only to stabilize for several years.

I mentioned the form called Friedrich’s Ataxia because I know a girl who has it. It was diagnosed 10 years ago, and since a few years earlier she had started to show the signs of it. While it’s long since the last time she was able to stand, even for a few moments, without a cane or someone holding her, she is still in relatively good shape and does not need a wheelchair. It helps that she is not in the slightest surrendering to the illness. Even better, thanks to constant activity, she is finding out she can still do things she thought she couldn’t anymore. She’s even learning to drive a car (with some devices to make things easier, obviously, but still). Obviously, her condition has degraded since I first met her but as I said, it goes very gradually.


Regarding the additional paragraphs on her backstory, upon re-reading the drabbles I already figured out she had that “wild” period (attacks the punk so violently + her dialogue in the following drabble). That also makes easy to think what really happened to her teeth…

And your further elaboration on her personality and the way she acts is brilliant. Put in this perspective, it’s like she has surrendered to the illness, just in a different way – she does what she does in the perspective of her death, not of the rest of her life.


So, the only thing I would change significantly is the extent of the worsening of Saki’s condition. It doesn’t need to be so rapid and dramatic and leading to an hospitalization. But it would be still significant (she could start to experience increased difficulty and fatigue in just standing up, for example), also hinting at her life expentancy being even shorter than originally thought. The moment she pukes in class would mark the start of a breakdown and, from there, it would eventually lead to her pushing Hisao away. That dialogue still happens, but in a different context like, he goes visiting Saki in her room, she doesn’t even turn to face him, and says those words. I also noticed that they started addressing each other by last name again, by the way

At this point, it could be like Lilly’s endings. The story could end here if you wanted to stop right now, and it would be a Bad End: Saki’s a wreck, Hisao even thinks he should have never gotten close to her.

But it goes on. Some days later, Shizune and Misha see Hisao in a miserable state and decide to help him. From there, after some drama and pondering, he would decide that he can’t leave Saki like that (she may go less and less to classes and he may have heard she’s even going to leave Yamaku, even if it may be just a rumour with no base in reality; on the other hand, I wouldn’t rule out her thinking of suicide). I cannot imagine what could exactly happen when he meets and confronts her but I feel an atmosphere like the last scene of Hanako’s path, even if at first Saki would get angry and shout a lot.

The relationship between Hisao and Saki would resume, or better, as you put it, restart on better grounds. Hisao would learn to see past her disability, Saki would finally start to apply the “live as if you'd die tomorrow” principle in the right way. I still take the girl I know as an example but I’d see Saki becoming more like her: living what life she still has at the best, and for real, not just pretending to do it. That's the important difference. Saki might, as well, have overestimated the extent of her condition because, out of depression, she stopped doing many things, and now she would “rediscover” them. There will be always clouds looming on she and Hisao’s shared future but, as long as they are happy, it will be good.

And regarding that last point, I thought more about it. The difference between Saki and the canon girls is that, should Hisao die before her, it would hit even harder because her physical state would be probably quite decayed at that point. But I’m sure Hisao has thought about this possibility, and as one of his first concerns, I see him saving up money and setting up things (through trusted people, for example) so that, in the most unfortunate case of Saki surviving him, she won’t be left alone and will be able to live the time she’s left serenely. I know it sounds very convenient but, we’d like the happiest ending possible even in the worst case scenario, right?

Oh, and I even thought of three H-scenes.
- The first would happen relatively early in Hisao and Saki’s relationship. It would be of the “fun” type and she would take the most initiative (she may not be a virgin, going so far as telling him in bed “sex is beautiful, you know” XD), ending up being a bit awkward and not completely comfortable, a sign that something’s amiss with her.
- The second would be right after they recover from the incident with the punks. This time it would be more sincere and tender because of the recent happening, although it wouldn’t still be the best because of the pains they still have from the hits they took. The dialogue you put at the end of the drabbles would happen here, I see this as a good context because Hisao just seriously risked his life (really, if there was a time to see the Nurse angry for real, it would be that).
- The third would be at the end or almost, the “classic” scene of completely happy sex.

Finally, that dialogue again, could appear after both endings, bad and good, but it would sound completely different in the two contexts


That’s all for now. Thanks, Themocaw. This fic is a further tribute of what 4LS accomplished, if even side material of KS is able to make fans discuss so much.

Zoram wrote:

I figured that what happened in that scene was probably an acceleration of her condition that prevents her from going back to school or something. She's still got years/decades left, but in a greatly reduced condition, possibly confined to a wheelchair now, and is driving her "boyfriend" away out of depression.

Still doesn’t work that way, AFAIK. I do not know that much about the illness (or better I don’t remember much, since it’s years since I read about it) but I don’t think it goes with such sudden worsening, only to stabilize for several years.

I mentioned the form called Friedrich’s Ataxia because I know a girl who has it. It was diagnosed 10 years ago, and since a few years earlier she had started to show the signs of it. While it’s long since the last time she was able to stand, even for a few moments, without a cane or someone holding her, she is still in relatively good shape and does not need a wheelchair. It helps that she is not in the slightest surrendering to the illness. Even better, thanks to constant activity, she is finding out she can still do things she thought she couldn’t anymore. She’s even learning to drive a car (with some devices to make things easier, obviously, but still). Obviously, her condition has degraded since I first met her but as I said, it goes very gradually.

Thanks for that information. Yeah, I guess I goofed on this one. I would hope that the actual path would be better researched in the alternate universe where it gets made.

Reckon you could update this? I'd like to see more content.

Ah, but then it would be more than 2400 words...

Seriously, this story is supposed to be finished. Mocaw said he was thinking about a rewrite, but hasn't decided whether he'll do it.

A rewrite would be nice.