Katawa Shoujo Forums

RedMist wrote:Playing the whole useless Shizune Path is an Act of Masochism, Katawa Shojou had the potential to be so great if not for that waste of writing and coding that is Shizune Path.
So stop venting and go play the other girls and forget that the deaf bitch even exist.
She deserve you ceathing her with Misha ever and ever and ever.

Now, I disagree.

Honestly, Shizune is a well-made character. An interesting one, with clear-defined flaws and faults, but possibly the strongest girl of the set with possible exception of Emi.
Her route is quite well-done up until act 3's end, except it's less romantic than other paths... Which is understandable given Shizoon's personality, upbringing and circumstances.

Her act IV seems largely inferior from my perspective but I won't bash. On the whole, Shizune's well-made.

It's the kind of person she is that prompts me to dislike her.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Rivan wrote:The reverse is true for me. It hit me the least of all the bad endings, perhaps because I went for the bad ending.

I was pretty sure the moment Misha kissed Hisao where any more interaction would lead, and I wondered what her motives were.
Also, Misha's hotter than Shizune, so being more disconnected emotionally from her than other girls, I decided to go ahead and try.

I was rather surprised when it turned out very little changed. Neither interaction with Mischa nor Shizune seemed strange for most of the rest of the route. Mischa acted herself, Shizune was still herself. She never found out. Never gave away a hint that she might suspect something.

Everything went on almost as if the choice had no meaning at all, until, all of a sudden, Shizune acts more distant, two or three scenes and BAM, breakup.

Shizune's actual reasoning for the scene didn't make me feel bad. It made me dislike her. Once again, after accussing Lilly so many times of not realizing how her actions affected others, Shizune does the exact same thing herself. First, she turned down Misha only to try to be friends with her, then, she accepted Hisao as a boyfriend only to continue treating him as a subordinate, because, apparently, she felt it could be awkward and more hurtful to Misha if they showed off their relationship.

It's almost frightening how closely my reasoning correlates to your own. I went for Shizune's bad ending simply because I liked Misha more (i.e. both her character and her bust... WHY NO MISHA ROUTE QQ), but in the end I felt pretty much the same way you did. Although I might have been (and still be) a bit biased against Shizune for being such a bitch to Lilly all the time.

Well, metagame-wise, Misha was never a character planned to have a route
In-game wise... Hisao can't get with Misha because she's already in love with someone else, and she seems to have certain difficulties seeing boys "that way".. Gotta admit, that makes sense.

Still, Act IV of Shizune's route should be kind of... different. Right now, Shizune's path is the only path where Hisao doesn't get what's coming to him when he messes up seriously. In fact, he might be better off without Shizune, who decides on hurting himself and herself, and Misha as well, and then sits seemingly attempting to look utterly sad.

Who does that with seemingly little reason at all?

Also, given the fact that we're given the option to cheat on Shizune with Mikado-Chan, why not go all the way? I mean, she's good enough to bang when being in a relationship with her friend, but she's not good enough to be a honest guy and break up with said friend in order to either let Misha have another shot at her, or let Hisao pursue Misha herself?

Seriously, either one of those two options should be candidates for a neutral ending.

Even if
Hisao is friendzoned by Misha forever when going after her because she just is what she is, or is unhappy even though he helped create something beautiful between Misha and Shizune
I mean, that would pretty much be the definition of a neutral ending.

Rivan wrote:Well, metagame-wise, Misha was never a character planned to have a route
In-game wise... Hisao can't get with Misha because she's already in love with someone else, and she seems to have certain difficulties seeing boys "that way".. Gotta admit, that makes sense.

Still, Act IV of Shizune's route should be kind of... different. Right now, Shizune's path is the only path where Hisao doesn't get what's coming to him when he messes up seriously. In fact, he might be better off without Shizune, who decides on hurting himself and herself, and Misha as well, and then sits seemingly attempting to look utterly sad.

Who does that with seemingly little reason at all?

Also, given the fact that we're given the option to cheat on Shizune with Mikado-Chan, why not go all the way? I mean, she's good enough to bang when being in a relationship with her friend, but she's not good enough to be a honest guy and break up with said friend in order to either let Misha have another shot at her, or let Hisao pursue Misha herself?

Seriously, either one of those two options should be candidates for a neutral ending.

Even if
Hisao is friendzoned by Misha forever when going after her because she just is what she is, or is unhappy even though he helped create something beautiful between Misha and Shizune
I mean, that would pretty much be the definition of a neutral ending.

I realize Misha wasn't one of the projected characters from the start of the game's development - my complaint was meant to be taken rhetorically, in passing. I still feel her character could've warranted her own separate path (she's my third favorite character, after all), but perhaps your idea would've been more expedient, and perhaps more poignant, circumstances depending.

Rivan - I like your suggestions for possible neutral endings. They seemed plausible enough.

That said, Shizune's bad ending was one of the more intense bad endings in my opinion. Her path was overall the least interesting to me, even though I think her character is well put together. Still, the bad ending blindsided me a bit. I wasn't really expecting it, truth be told.

Rivan wrote: The reverse is true for me. It hit me the least of all the bad endings, perhaps because I went for the bad ending.

I was pretty sure the moment Misha kissed Hisao where any more interaction would lead, and I wondered what her motives were.
Also, Misha's hotter than Shizune, so being more disconnected emotionally from her than other girls, I decided to go ahead and try.

I was rather surprised when it turned out very little changed. Neither interaction with Mischa nor Shizune seemed strange for most of the rest of the route. Mischa acted herself, Shizune was still herself. She never found out. Never gave away a hint that she might suspect something.

Everything went on almost as if the choice had no meaning at all, until, all of a sudden, Shizune acts more distant, two or three scenes and BAM, breakup.

Shizune's actual reasoning for the scene didn't make me feel bad. It made me dislike her. Once again, after accussing Lilly so many times of not realizing how her actions affected others, Shizune does the exact same thing herself. First, she turned down Misha only to try to be friends with her, then, she accepted Hisao as a boyfriend only to continue treating him as a subordinate, because, apparently, she felt it could be awkward and more hurtful to Misha if they showed off their relationship.

And then, when things were looking slightly better, she decides to push them both away.
Well, maybe the pink-haired girl assuming she's bisexual and her best friend's ex-boyfriend can have a little healthier relationship without her, but it probably will hurt them both as hell.

This reasoning nails pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I think its my biggest complaint with the game; I didn't know I was on the bad ending route (aside from what I'd done) because nothing seemed out of the ordinary until Shizune is suddenly sat on the stairs crying with the cat. It was sad sure, but I don't think it built up to it well.

I got the bad end first, because I thought "finally, the Misha route starts!" at a "certain point". That turned out too good to be true, but yeah, the good and bad endings after this final event are so similar that it seems like your action had no effect at all - in fact you could argue it actually didn't; I'm not actually sure if Shizune ever finds out you slept with Misha (if this is mentioned I apologise, I was very sleep deprived during this part) and Misha and Shizune act exactly the same regardless until very late on in either route when it either begins to suddenly go wrong, or go right. The reasoning for this doesn't seem to be explained or shown, hence I was actually quite confused at first. Choosing to sleep with Misha is never really brought up again at all, or expressly stated as the reason things go badly.

Maybe someone has a better grasp on it, I only finished it yesterday and very early in the morning just so I could get it done before sleeping, but from what Rivan says it seems my recollections are true.

Sorry to necro this thread but there wasn't a rule against it and I couldn't see starting a new thread just for this.

Can someone please help me understand Shizune's bad ending? I usually don't have a problem understanding how certain things progress in stories like this but I feel like maybe I misunderstood a scene or read over something too fast and missed an important detail.

Here's where I feel like I'm getting lost, I'm at the part where Shizune and Hisao are trying to make Misha feel better. They try to confront her in class but she gets away and Hisao agrees to follow her. Hisao catches her and she agrees to go to the tea shop, after that he tours her around the school, and at the end she seems better like she is going to make up with Shizune. I think that is where my recollection gets messed up though because after that it's Shizune not showing up to school and being despressed. Than After that she taking you outside telling you she treats relationships like a game and hates it. So wanting to push everyone away she breaks up with you.

I agree I don't like Hisao's reaction at the end but I mostly don't like the end because I feel like it just sort of happened. Like there wasn't some defining moment where Shizune decided the course of action. Like I said maybe I missed something, can anyone help? (I'm also annoyed like most people apparently that the final decision doesn't seem to effect anything and it's just an arbitrary choice to decide the path but that's another thing entirely.)

They told me the ending was insanely subtle.

No kidding.

When did Shizune find out Misha had slept with Hisao? Did she ever? I think that's what bemused me the most: I knew what I'd done to her, Misha knew, but how did she find out?

Paddy wrote:They told me the ending was insanely subtle.

No kidding.

When did Shizune find out Misha had slept with Hisao? Did she ever? I think that's what bemused me the most: I knew what I'd done to her, Misha knew, but how did she find out?

That's the thing, there are hardly any clues as to whether she actually found out about Hisao's infidelity. That's actually what shocked me the most about Shizune's bad ending - there was no confrontation. Instead, subtlety abounds!

Paddy wrote:They told me the ending was insanely subtle.

No kidding.

When did Shizune find out Misha had slept with Hisao? Did she ever? I think that's what bemused me the most: I knew what I'd done to her, Misha knew, but how did she find out?

Shizune figured it out on her own she is a smart girl .... or she is more messed up socially then hanako and hid within herself

The Whole path of Shizune is my favorite part ever in electronic entetainment ( VN's , games ,TV , movies ) .... that bad ending left an impression on my heart sorta like Celes trying to commit suicide in final fantasy 6 to me its that powerful of a statement ..... Everyone has there own OMG moments from KS ( lillys good ending ,any number of rin's moments , the pool hall with hanako ect ) ... Shizunes bad ending is my OMG moment from KS

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Paddy wrote:They told me the ending was insanely subtle.

No kidding.

When did Shizune find out Misha had slept with Hisao? Did she ever? I think that's what bemused me the most: I knew what I'd done to her, Misha knew, but how did she find out?

That's the thing, there are hardly any clues as to whether she actually found out about Hisao's infidelity. That's actually what shocked me the most about Shizune's bad ending - there was no confrontation. Instead, subtlety abounds!

Hurray for subtlety!!

Jokes aside though, the problem wasn't that Hisao cheated on Shizune with Misha. The problem was that after Hisao and Misha went behind Shizune's back, they started avoiding her. During this time, Shizune was wondering if she was balancing her friendship with Misha and her romance with Hisao correctly, so when Misha and Hisao started avoiding her, she thought that she was pushing them away with her crappy social skills like how she pushed the former members of the student council away. Feeling guilty that she was somehow hurting Hisao and Misha, Shizune decided to break her ties with them.

Well, that's my take on it, anyways.

Jokes aside though, the problem wasn't that Hisao cheated on Shizune with Misha. The problem was that after Hisao and Misha went behind Shizune's back, they started avoiding her. During this time, Shizune was wondering if she was balancing her friendship with Misha and her romance with Hisao correctly, so when Misha and Hisao started avoiding her, she thought that she was pushing them away with her crappy social skills like how she pushed the former members of the student council away. Feeling guilty that she was somehow hurting Hisao and Misha, Shizune decided to break her ties with them.

Well, that's my take on it, anyways.

That makes sense but I guess I was just hoping for something more concrete (I think that's the right word to use). I still feel like both of the girls were Bipolar, in that they both seemed to jump from one extreme to the other rather quickly and to me it seemed like things were just started to look better then she breaks up with you. Kind of like we were being led on at the end, but I guess that's how real life works sometimes too so I can't complain too much.

The more and more I think about it, and your post especially encrypted, the more and more bewildered, and the more and more sad and perhaps even guilty I feel. It's like, whatever I or Misha did pushed Shizune into her shell even further - so far in that I can't even really figure out what's going on in her head, or why she's pulling away from me and Misha, and I can't help but feel it's all my fault.

I or Misha or Shizune, or all three of us, have done or thought or said something so terrible that she's isolated herself so much no one may ever figure out what happened.

Still confusing, but much sadder - and more frightening. What if she'd then hang herself? Who would be to blame?

I don't think Shizune could have reasonably "figured out" that Misha slept with Hisao. I mean, it's possible, I suppose: she could have noticed Misha was missing on that night, asked around about her whereabouts, found someone who saw her going into the male dorms, and connected all the dots. But that's a whole lot to assume when there's absolutely no evidence for it in the game. I think you have to conclude that Shizune never finds about Hisao's infidelity, and decides to break up with him for other reasons.

So why did Shizune break up with Hisao? Well, I believe that even though Shizune never explicitly finds out about the encounter between Misha and Hisao, it still has a big enough effect on their own behaviors that it indirectly influences her in the end. The guilt of that single incident alters their group dynamic to the point where none of their relationships are reconcilable, and they all drift apart.

How and why does this happen? The story starts to diverge between the good and bad endings in Look Aside (bad route) and Look Ahead (good route), which both cover the morning and afternoon after Misha and Hisao's night together. First, some context: at this point in the story, Shizune, Hisao, and Misha have just had a vacation at Shizune's house, during which Shizune had sex with Hisao for the first time, but otherwise mostly ignored him to spend time with Misha. Then, they came back to school, and since then, things have been pretty awkward between all three of them. There was a fight between Shizune and Misha (not explicitly featured in the game, but talked and speculated about extensively by the characters) about their expectations of graduation, and they have a little less than friendly as a result. Simultaneously, Shizune has been reserved in dealing with Hisao, presumably because she thinks being openly romantic with him will be painful for Misha. Even more importantly, Hisao starts to act very weird on the morning of Look Aside/Look Ahead; he actually skips class to go hang out in the library, and Shizune finds him there. Hisao tries to excuse himself by saying he is sick, but I think Shizune sees right through that. Hisao refuses to tell her what's really wrong, and this lack of openness is very concerning to Shizune.

Now, to the part where the text starts to diverge. Misha confesses her feelings for Shizune to Hisao on the roof, and also expresses suicidal thoughts. If you're in Look Ahead (good ending), Hisao gives Misha a reasonably inspiring speech about the value of life, whereas in Look Aside, his response is not nearly as long nor as reassuring, because he is overwhelmed by the guilt of his recent actions. In fact, there is even a self-reflective comment by Hisao noting that he thinks his response is more for his own benefit than for Misha's, and I think the fact that this is pointed out in the text has to imply that Misha gets the same impression. So by the time Shizune interrupts their conversation on the roof, Misha is in a significantly different frame of mind depending on whether you're in Look Aside or Look Ahead.

Then comes the single most important decision made by Hisao in the entire route - yes, more important than his decision whether or not to sleep with Misha (although it is, of course, directly influenced by that earlier decision) - he either leaves the rooftop with Misha and Shizune for a nice afternoon together (in Look Ahead), or he uses a pathetic excuse about still not feeling well to leave them alone together and go back to the dorms (in Look Aside). The subtle long-term effects of skipping out on that afternoon cannot be overstated! Refusing to spend the evening with Shizune, and twice lying to her about his reasons for doing so, has a profound effect on Shizune's views on her relationship with Hisao. Based on that, she starts to think that Hisao is intentionally avoiding her and is unwilling to take their relationship seriously. At the same time, refusing to spend the evening with Misha has a profound effect on her, because it indicates that what happened between her and Hisao is too much of an issue for them to spend time together normally anymore.

Then, as Act 4 starts, the two paths of the story reconverge, as you attempt to deal with the issue of Misha growing distant from Shizune. Basically all the text in these scenes is the same regardless of what ending you're approaching, but the subtextual context of the situation is different, because Misha's frame of mind is different, and so is Shizune's. For example, in Grand Strategy, Shizune recounts to Hisao how, sometime after finding him and Misha conversing on the roof, she and Misha had another fight. Specifically, Misha told her that she is too selfish, confusing, and that she tries to bring people around her and then push them away. Even though her report of this encounter is the same whether or not you went through Look Aside or Look Ahead, you can assume that the reality of the situation was different depending on the context. In the frame of mind effected by the events in Look Aside, Misha was probably a lot more depressed and emotional when accusing Shizune of her shortcomings; possibly even angry. On the other hand, in the frame of mind effected by the events of Look Ahead, her accusations were probably at least somewhat more reconciliatory and heartfelt. In addition, Shizune's internal reaction to these accusations would be different depending on context! If Hisao abandoned her in Look Aside, then she would be much more worried about her relationship with Hisao during the rest of the day, and so when Misha starts accusing her of being selfish, and bringing people around her just to push them away, she would be inclined to apply those accusations to her treatment of Hisao as well, even if Misha didn't intend it that way. You can even see her repeat those same accusations as her reasoning for breaking up with Hisao in Terminal.

Now, during the subplot concerning Misha's distant behavior (i.e., the scenes from Grand Strategy to Parfait), Shizune has something to focus on aside from her relationship with Hisao. I think this is the reason those few scenes are so similar between the good ending and the bad ending; regardless of Shizune's thoughts regarding Hisao, and her worries about their relationship, she has a more pressing issue to deal with in the meantime. Unfortunately, if you took the bad route, Misha ends up being inconsolable, despite Hisao's best efforts in Parfait. Furthermore, as Present Tense (the first scene of the bad ending) begins, Shizune is avoiding class, Misha is still looking sullen, and Hisao is avoiding Misha. Shizune skipping class is actually a very important difference that demarcates the re-divergence between the good and bad endings. It occurs the day after the events of Parfait, which is actually a surprisingly fast response time. Based on how quickly after Parfait this difference occurs, I would actually speculate that if you're on the good path, and Hisao's attempts to comfort Misha are successful, she goes and finds Shizune to apologize for her recent behavior later that evening, whereas if you're on the bad path, she doesn't. Regardless, you can safely assume than by the time Present Tense begins, Shizune has decided that she has exhausted all options for solving her problem with Misha, and has concluded that the situation is hopeless. Shizune's absence from class indicates her depression at her failure to salvage her friendship with Misha, and is really the beginning of the end for her relationship with Hisao. Having to give up on Misha not only hurts her very deeply and causes her to reconsider her outlook on life, it also frees her focus to her worries about Hisao, which she had been repressing in order to deal with Misha.

Ultimately, failure at reconciliation with Misha, combined with Hisao's recent evasiveness and lack of openness, combined with Misha's own criticisms of her after the events of Look Aside, cause Shizune to conclude that her relationship with Hisao is similarly destructive and will end similarly poorly, so she resolves to break up with him. Both Misha's responses to the attempts to cheer her up and Hisao's distant behavior are influenced by their frames of mind that were fundamentally caused by their decision to have sex earlier in the story, and even if Shizune only felt the indirect effects of that decision, those indirect effects were enough to significantly change her own thoughts and actions.

Mirrormn wrote: -snip-
Now, during the subplot concerning Misha's distant behavior (i.e., the scenes from Grand Strategy to Parfait), Shizune has something to focus on aside from her relationship with Hisao. I think this is the reason those few scenes are so similar between the good ending and the bad ending; regardless of Shizune's thoughts regarding Hisao, and her worries about their relationship, she has a more pressing issue to deal with in the meantime. Unfortunately, if you took the bad route, Misha ends up being inconsolable, despite Hisao's best efforts in Parfait.

-snip-

Your post was insanely helpful especially the part I didn't snip. I think I had misread that scene because I thought Misha was consoled despite it being the bad end. It does make a lot more sense now that I know that's the case and I can't help but feel I would have drawn a lot of the same conclusions if I had not misread there. Either way though I think I was expecting their infidelity to come out in the open and I was also expecting it to be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak. I was too busy waiting for the reveal to think about how simply having done it effected Hisao's and Misha's actions thus indirectly effecting Shizune (as you described). I think I'm going to have to focus a lot harder on their thought processes when I read the other stories.

It is also nice to connect the final decision to the ending even if it is a lot less obvious.

Thanks

Dreager_ex wrote: Your post was insanely helpful especially the part I didn't snip. I think I had misread that scene because I thought Misha was consoled despite it being the bad end. It does make a lot more sense now that I know that's the case and I can't help but feel I would have drawn a lot of the same conclusions if I had not misread there.

To get a little more specific with that scene in particular, there is a subtle exchange that occurs near the end of it that I suspect is supposed to have a very different connotation depending on whether you're on the good route or the bad route:

Katawa Shoujo wrote: Misha: "Why're you doing this, Hicchan?"
Hisao: "Doing what?"
Misha: "I'm not stupid."
Hisao: "I don't know. A bunch of reasons. Because you're Shizune's friend? And I liked how close you were? And maybe I'm trying to tell you that we all have our low points, but giving up is stupid. Anyway, it seems worth the trouble."
Misha: "That's the only reason?"
Hisao: "And you're my friend."
Misha: "That's it?"
Hisao: "Can't I do something for no reason?"
Misha: "Wahaha~. You can, you can~, but~, I want to know."
Hisao: "Well, what else do you want to hear?"
The bell rings before Misha can reply, so she ends up laughing instead.

This exchange confused me for a while after reading Shizune's route. After a second reading, and a bit of thought, I concluded that Misha must suspect Shizune's influence in Hisao's attempts to console her and is trying to get him to admit it. But, this is the very last text in the game before the good route and the bad route re-diverge, and as we know, in the bad route, Misha is not consoled by this conversation (she still looks sullen after this incident, and we assume, based on Shizune's skipping class the next day, that Shizune somehow knows that the consolation attempt failed). So it stands to reason that her frame of mind is considerably different in each instance of this conversation, which means the reason she continues to press Hisao about his motivations for consoling her could be different as well. It could be that in the bad route, she is actually looking for some certain response from Hisao that she doesn't get, and which leads to her subsequent actions or lack thereof. Maybe because of her guilt over what she has done to Shizune, it is much more important to her in the bad route that Hisao actually admit that his actions are Shizune's idea, because hearing that would indicate that Shizune still cares about her as a friend. Maybe she suspects that, much like in Look Aside, Hisao's attempts to cheer her up are based in his own guilt, and she is looking for signs of sincerity in his responses, which she does not find because Hisao is actually acting on Shizune's behalf, but she misinterprets this insincerity as being an indication of selfish motivations. Maybe she actually secretly wishes Hisao wants a romantic relationship with her, and is trying to give him an opening to admit it. She did come to him for sex when she felt she needed comforting, after all, and he complied, so there is definitely a basis for suspicion of romantic feelings between them. And she seems a little hung up on the word "friend" as it is used in the conversation. In fact, when Hisao says "And you're my friend" and she responds "That's it?", you could interpret that as meaning "Is that all I am to you?" instead of "Is that the only reason you're doing this?"

It's a mysterious route, Shizune's.

Dreager_ex wrote:Either way though I think I was expecting their infidelity to come out in the open and I was also expecting it to be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak. I was too busy waiting for the reveal to think about how simply having done it effected Hisao's and Misha's actions thus indirectly effecting Shizune (as you described).

Yeah, I expected that too, on my first playthrough. I was pretty taken aback when the route ended without the issue ever having been discussed by any of the characters. I mean, Misha and Hisao barely even talk about it right after it happens! I really thought Shizune's arc was awful the first time I read it, because I missed a lot of its subtleties. After having read through it a few more times with a careful eye for detail, I appreciate the dynamics between the characters and the subtle, often tacit drama that plays out a lot more. It's still my least favorite route, because I think it's so difficult to interpret correctly that it just can't form the emotional connection that occurs in the other four routes, but it's definitely fun to analyze.

Dreager_ex wrote:I think I'm going to have to focus a lot harder on their thought processes when I read the other stories.

I'd say that Rin's route would benefit from such intent focus, but in the other routes, it's really not all that necessary, since the motivations of the characters are generally explained in full by the end. In fact, in those routes, being somewhat unsure of the motivations of the characters serves to heighten the drama of the stories and make them more enjoyable. Rin's intentionally very difficult to understand, and I find teasing out her motivations and thought processes through careful analysis is often a very emotionally rewarding experience. Also, Aura (Rin's path author) is a better writer (in my opinion) than A22 (Shizune's path author), so in Rin's route you get better clues as to what your interpretations should be, and there is more effort spent on ensuring you have an emotional investment in her regardless of your level of understanding, so you can still get the full experience of the route on your first playthrough and then go back and think more about it later.

The painting for Shizune's bad ending is what really made it sad. I hated seeing that little stuffed toy that Hisao won for her.

I was never really affected by the bad endings in the same way as I was with the good endings though, and I think it's because I never actually viewed them as "real". Sure, I made sure to read through them just to see what could have happened, but I distanced myself from them emotionally in a way because I knew that that's not, in my head anyway, how things actually turned out.