Katawa Shoujo Forums

MoonShadow wrote:

NoOne3 wrote:Also, autism, and autism spectrum disorders should be distinguished, since these are not the same.

I know that, but I just wanted to stay as simple as possible while still proving my point.

Real autism is definitely different from autism spectrum disorders. I think the distinction should've been a part of your explanation in this regard.

hickwarrior wrote:

MoonShadow wrote:

NoOne3 wrote:Also, autism, and autism spectrum disorders should be distinguished, since these are not the same.

I know that, but I just wanted to stay as simple as possible while still proving my point.

Real autism is definitely different from autism spectrum disorders. I think the distinction should've been a part of your explanation in this regard.

It doesn't change the fact that Autism is a different way for the brain to function, thus a disorder, and not a disability.

MoonShadow wrote:It doesn't change the fact that Autism is a different way for the brain to function, thus a disorder, and not a disability.

It's not a binary either/or: disorders, when severe enough or in specific areas, can also be disabilities. True autism, as well as many of the disorders on the spectrum, impair the sufferer's ability to function in society, and this makes them disabilities as well as disorders.

Nekken wrote:

MoonShadow wrote:It doesn't change the fact that Autism is a different way for the brain to function, thus a disorder, and not a disability.

It's not a binary either/or: disorders, when severe enough or in specific areas, can also be disabilities. True autism, as well as many of the disorders on the spectrum, impair the sufferer's ability to function in society, and this makes them disabilities as well as disorders.

Actually, Yamaku doesn't strike me as a school that's equipped to deal with those kinds of things. Maybe therapy sessions against panic attacks, but that's it. I guess following Rin's route might shed light on it more, but from what I've heard, it seems that expressing herself properly is something she struggles with. Which, to me, is a disorder.

A disorder is a disability. A disability is something that impedes with normal functioning. Depression, ADHD, Aspergers, PTSD, and so on, are disabilities. Just because someone has full use of their body and don't have any problems cognitively, doesn't mean they aren't disabled in some way.

See: http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/01/a ... f-ableism/

Also, not trying to start a fight, but "retard" is also extremely ableist and I'm surprised people who enjoy this game could talk like that.

Well, where I live, they do treat my disorder as a disability. I was diagnosed as 100% uncapable of work. Not at a young age, but just something so that they can confirm if I need support from the government. Well, monetary mostly.

And yea, I did notice how depression was making me stall work even worse than I ever did. I guess that should count for something.

Anyway, I wanna hear a discussion about this a bit more before I change my opinion.

I think the case may be that lesser mental disorders are accepted. In the case of Hanako, she obviously suffers from depression that stems from her burns but is by no means a reason why she couldn't be accepted by Yamaku. Rin may very well just be naturally weird. Kenji seems to act quite normally around other students, Hisao generally gets the brunt of his oddities and to me it seems more like an act he puts on anyway. Misha, as i've stated before, probably has ADHD.

phantomwolf wrote:A disorder is a disability. A disability is something that impedes with normal functioning. Depression, ADHD, Aspergers, PTSD, and so on, are disabilities. Just because someone has full use of their body and don't have any problems cognitively, doesn't mean they aren't disabled in some way.

See: http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/01/a ... f-ableism/

Also, not trying to start a fight, but "retard" is also extremely ableist and I'm surprised people who enjoy this game could talk like that.

I have Asperger Syndrome, and never in my life did it disabled me in any way. Someone disabled has something he cannot do because of that disability, i.e. I'm blind so I can't see, or I have dyslexia so I can't write properly. There is no such thing for me, I can do anything a normal person does. Asperger Syndrome is a DISORDER, because I am thinking differently than normal persons. I'm not thinking less, I'm thinking differently. Not a disability.

Know what? Albert Einstein had Asperger Syndrome. Go tell him he is disabled.

MoonShadow wrote:

phantomwolf wrote:A disorder is a disability. A disability is something that impedes with normal functioning. Depression, ADHD, Aspergers, PTSD, and so on, are disabilities. Just because someone has full use of their body and don't have any problems cognitively, doesn't mean they aren't disabled in some way.

See: http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/01/a ... f-ableism/

Also, not trying to start a fight, but "retard" is also extremely ableist and I'm surprised people who enjoy this game could talk like that.

I have Asperger Syndrome, and never in my life did it disabled me in any way. Someone disabled has something he cannot do because of that disability, i.e. I'm blind so I can't see, or I have dyslexia so I can't write properly. There is no such thing for me, I can do anything a normal person does. Asperger Syndrome is a DISORDER, because I am thinking differently than normal persons. I'm not thinking less, I'm thinking differently. Not a disability.

Know what? Albert Einstein had Asperger Syndrome. Go tell him he is disabled.

He was. A disability has nothing to do with intelligence. It also doesn't always mean NON-ability. It doesn't mean a person can't be a genius or do amazing things. A disability just makes doing things more difficult. Making things difficult that normal people take for granted.

Go tell someone (like myself...) who is actually diagnosed with Asperger's rather than the self-diagnosis that's all the rage these days and tell them it's just about thinking differently after they have a meltdown due to the lights being slightly too bright or a minor change of plans. Tell them it's just a "different way of thinking" when they panic and shut down when put into an unfamiliar social situation. Tell them it's a just different way of thinking that they become so obsessed with one thing that they disregard everything, including hygiene. Tell them it's a just different way of thinking when they can't just go to the store and buy clothing because they have to choose clothing that is soft and sensitive to the skin. Tell them it's just a different way of thinking when they get in trouble in school or work due to an inability to understand social cues and very literal thinking. It is a disability, and a disability (sans mental retardation) has no bearing on ones intelligence.

phantomwolf wrote:Go tell someone (like myself...) who is actually diagnosed with Asperger's rather than the self-diagnosis that's all the rage these days

You are assuming things here. I am diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, it's not a self-diagnosis. If you really need a proof, dr. Nancy Shank diagnosed me.

phantomwolf wrote:meltdown due to the lights being slightly too bright.

Are you sure you only have Asperger? I was never told about this being a possible symptom, nor have I ever read about it. And since I've been diagnosed, I've read a lot to understand better.

Tell them it's just a "different way of thinking" when they panic and shut down when put into an unfamiliar social situation.

You might have a point here, but everyone can have a panic crisis. It's not exclusive to Asperger.

Tell them it's a just different way of thinking that they become so obsessed with one thing that they disregard everything, including hygiene.

Same thing here. Anybody can have an obsessive comportement.

Tell them it's a just different way of thinking when they can't just go to the store and buy clothing because they have to choose clothing that is soft and sensitive to the skin.

Again here, that's a symptom I've never heard or read about before.

Tell them it's just a different way of thinking when they get in trouble in school or work due to an inability to understand social cues and very literal thinking.

When an Asperger doesn't understand social cues, it's due do their different way of thinking. They just see the events on a different angle. For example, I always had trouble to understand surperficial friendship. To me, a friend is someone I can trust, someone that understands me and that I can understand. In the end, did it affect my life, to the point of being a disability? No. It's just that instead of having 10-15 "friends", I have 3 close friends. I think it's better this way, so in the end it's the opposite of a disability.

It is a disability, and a disability (sans mental retardation) has no bearing on ones intelligence.

If you want to think you are disabled, suits yourself. It seems to me that you are shielding yourself behind your diagnosis, using it to explain everything bad that's happening to you. To me, I'm just thinking differently. (And I'm not the only one thinking this way, as I could see through my readings.) My syndrome gave me better friendship, and also gave me an excellent way of living my life, since dr. Shank thinks it's thank to my syndrome that I'm so good with numbers. I'm now working with computers, and mental calculation is something really useful to my job that I do with ease. My syndrome is not a disability. It's a disorder, making me think differently, sometimes with bad results and often with good.

That's hilarious that you think I use it as an excuse. I bet you've never seen anyone who has worked so hard to deal with the symptoms in your life. I bet you've never seen anyone who has come so far, either. It's funny how you assume I'm all basing what I previously said on how I am now rather than a combination of the past and people that I've met. Obviously you've never seen anyone who greatly suffered from Asperger's if you've never seen any of these things. It's called a Developmental Disability for a good reason. If it's just a "different way of thinking" that doesn't hinder your life in any way (simply being shy isn't a hinderance unlike social anxiety. Thinking in hypothetical squares when most people think in circles isn't just a different way of thinking but it is if you can't see shapes very well, or can't tell the difference between the two. There's a difference between being a tad obsessive at times and having OCD, there's a difference between being nervous and an anxiety disorder. Having feeling when it makes sense to have that feeling, having difficulty when it makes sense to have difficulty is normal. Some people a little more than others, but if it is not excessive and doesn't hinder their ability to function without help, then that's just a way of thinking. Asperger's wouldn't be a diagnosis if it was just simply being different. "Thinking Differently" isn't a diagnosable condition and if it was, then pretty much everyone would have it.

I guess you're saying that if someone has dislexia it's just a different way of thinking because they have difficulty reading. It can't possibly be a disability.
Nor can OCD because there's no possible way it could impair their functioning, eh?

Did you have any idea that some disorder can gasp share the same symptoms? Why do you think Asperger's is often misdiagnosed as ADHD, sometimes even OCD or Bipolar disorder? Speaking of bipolar, spend a significant time with an unmedicated bipolar and tell me it's just a different way of thinking doesn't disable them in some way. Or borderline personality disorder, or depression, anything labeled a disorder is also a disability. It does not mean they are stupid, it does not mean they cannot be smarter or go farther in life than someone without a disorder, it does not mean they cannot work, or have friends, or get married, or do amazing things. But it does mean that it does impair functioning in some way and they need a bit more help than anyone who does not have the condition.

I'm guessing you're very young, too. Because no one out of high school thinks that all the people they know are their friends. The thing you described about friendship isn't a problem, nor does it even have to do with Asperger's. That's called being an introvert. Introversion is a personality trait. Asperger's is not a personality trait. For some people who are seriously affected, having 3 friends in the first place is a huge achievement.

And yes, meltdowns are a symptom of Asperger's and Autism in general. It's called an autistic meltdown and it's different from an emotional breakdown or panic attack. What I was specifically referring to was issues with Sensory Integration which is a major part of Asperger's syndrome.

If I'm right, reading people's body language is a major way of social contact. Someone who has an autism spectrum disorder could have trouble reading body language and as thus is limited in a way. Or trying to get a point across, but somehow making the point entirely too vague for others.

The latter could definitely hinder someone who has a disorder. I'm not sure if this is that relevant, since you can tell me that this can be trained or worked around, so take that as you will.

Anyway, phantom, don't do ad hominem. It makes you look bad. Think of why he has this image of you hiding yourself behind your disorder, then explain that you might not have meant it that way. In short, try to refrain from ad hominem arguments and place yourself in someone else's shoes. You might be able to better explain your opinion that way.

PS: Moon, what kind of sources did you use to study your diagnosis? Any tips on books that might give me more insight into autism spectrum disorders?

hickwarrior wrote:PS: Moon, what kind of sources did you use to study your diagnosis? Any tips on books that might give me more insight into autism spectrum disorders?

My native language is french, so everything I read was in french. If you can read french, I'd recommand the following this book : Le Syndrome d'Asperger, et l'autisme de haut niveau by Tony Attwood. He explains Asperger Syndrome really well and points the diffences between it and Autism.
I don't remember the title of every book I read, and most of my readings were on the internet or on printed stuff given by doctors, but if you can read french and want more titles, it'll be a pleasure to search for the books I read.

I'm done answering to phantomwolf. He assumes too much things on me from the little I've written, and he's borderline insulting me.

MoonShadow wrote: Le Syndrome d'Asperger, et l'autisme de haut niveau by Tony Attwood.

He's not particularily french, as such. And his books are widely translated, so there shouldn't be a problem there.

NoOne3 wrote:

MoonShadow wrote: Le Syndrome d'Asperger, et l'autisme de haut niveau by Tony Attwood.

He's not particularily french, as such. And his books are widely translated, so there shouldn't be a problem there.

Did the titles change for the translations?