Katawa Shoujo Forums

Sociopathy/psychopathy is out, because both variations of this disorder involve having little/no feeling toward others. A relationship may be possible with such a person, but your feelings could never be reciprocated... And in a game based around generating feelings in the player, that's a bad combo.

As far as everything else goes (including those who PMed me) I will be unable to respond for about an hour and a half after this post. I appreciate your patience!

Honeymuffin wrote:Sociopathy/psychopathy is out, because both variations of this disorder involve having little/no feeling toward others. A relationship may be possible with such a person, but your feelings could never be reciprocated... And in a game based around generating feelings in the player, that's a bad combo.

Not to mention that any action taken by character afflicted with such disorder would ultimately benefit his/herself only at the cost of others.

OK so sociopathy and psychopathy is out - but I still think they make good foil - if not outright evil love rival characters. Remembering that people affected by this disorder also normally possesses noticeable but superficial charm.

Then what else?
- Autism
- OCD
- ???

Lists would be good

OK, here's my plan vor a story. It's pretty much a sketch with lot of open spaces.

It takes place in a small city in a country in northern/western continental Europe. The main character is a in his late teens, and spent most of his adolescence being a no-lifer and spending his time on videogames and the internet. He's an adopted only-child with two married fathers. Although he enjoys his loner-existance, he feels like he's missing out on too much and decides to get a life and expand his circle of friends. In this proces, he'll meet the heroines of the game.

The first one is a cute meganekko type of girl the protagonist goes to school with. She doesn't appear to have any real friends, just like him, and that's exactly why he goes after her. She plays a musical instrument, and is very serious about it. She's the type of girl who always goes straight home after school. The two fall in love develop a relationship and become intimate, but the guy doesn't get to know her at that well, just the surface of her personality. The girl lives with her mother and hates her father because he 'did something horrible and abandoned her and her mother at a young age'. Her mother is the type of parent who thinks of their child as a prodigy and is hellbent on making a succesfull artist of her daughter, she doesn't like the fact that her daughter is seeing a boy and despised men in general. As the story progresses, the girl will be faced with the tough choice of pleasing her mother (quite a bad and abusive parent, but the girl feels like she owes everything she has to her mother) or her boyfriend. As things get positively dramatic, it is revealed that the girls biological father is actually one of the main characters adoptive fathers. On top of that, the father never did something horrible, and the mother just divorced him after some fights and lied in court to keep the father from seeing her child again. Is the love between the girl and the main character strong enough to survive this family drama? It depends on the choices you make in the game.

I don't have much of an idea what the second girl will look like, but she likes rock 'n roll and is politically active. The main character meets her at a rock concert. The two start to hang out together. The girl introduces him to her friends, who are all part of the same nationalist movement. At first he's sceptical of the group and their ideas, and only hangs out with them because of the girl and his desire to meet new people, but as time goes by, he 'awakens' and becomes a radical himself. This puts him into confilcts with his parents, his school and pretty much everyone out of the movement.

I haven't thought much about the third girl yet, I think it would be a good idea to make her some sort of immigrant, I haven't thought too much about her yet.

Alright, I'm back. I apologize for the time lag - most of my posts in this thread were written on break at my workplace, but now that I'm home I can give you fine people the attention you deserve. ;D

My ideas about the girls and their disabilities are quite limited at this point... Partly because I only started thinking of this project about a day ago, and partly because I don't want to fill in too much of the story when I intend to (ideally) recruit other writers who will be doing their own paths. I don't want to be the sole creative force behind the game, or even the primary one; it would feel like I was pre-emptively stepping on the toes of my future co-workers if I flesh out the female characters too much.

I'll share my rough ideas so far, though. I don't know if I can give a comprehensive list of mental disabilities I'd like to include, (mainly because I don't know how many paths there will be) but I suppose I can share the ones I'm pretty adamant about including.

I would like to include a character with bipolar disorder. People with this disorder are prone to random mood swings, can take virtually ANY comment as a personal attack, and they don't handle criticism very well at all. The main challenge for the writer of this path will be making the character endearing even though she's prone to taking things personally, twisting the main character's words, and flipping out over the smallest inconveniences. She'll also undergo both manic and depressive stages, and the nature of the MC's choices will vary based on those phases.

While I intend most girls' disabilities to either be a) socially bestowed or b) inborn, I would like both the MC and one of the girls to have received their disorder from some sort of accident. The events surrounding the MC's amnesia will likely never be fleshed-out fully; bits and pieces of his story will be dropped across all paths. As for the girl, I haven't quite decided what disorder she has yet, but I know that I would like it to be caused by an inoperable metal object lodged in her head somewhere; something that affected a part of her brain's physicality. As such, I think such a character would be rather reserved due to her "deformity", but her mental disorder should still be the focus of her path to avoid tarring her with the "mental-case hanako" brush. I'm toying with the idea of having this character frequently wear a hat to hide the exposed shrapnel.

Finally, disassociative identity disorder seems like a good fit for this type of game as well. I like the idea of having to please "multiple people" to win the heart of a single girl. This would probably be the most interesting path to write, and almost certainly the most confusing. I have a rough idea that I'd like the MC to aid in excising one of her more destructive personalities for what he thinks is her own good; how he goes about it seems like a good premise for the events surrounding the good/bad ending choice in her path.

I think this could potentially be something very interesting and fresh, as long as its kept as tasteful as KS is.

Also, given that, from my understanding, a disproportionately high amount amount of fans of japanese popular culture in the west in general and anime/manga related subjects in particular have different from of autistic disorders or traits, so having a character who reflects that (possibly even the main character) could make a lot of people identify with the game in a really intimate way.

As long as the game is written similar to this I would try it out. I think the most interest part of Katawa Shoujo was about the mental states of the girls.... The fact that some of the girls was damaged in some form due to an event affected their mental state

I wouldn't be ok with any disability that affects a character's cognitive or behavioral abilities. That seems unhealthy and easily exploitative. So I wouldn't be ok with autism unless it was only within the asperger spectrum. And even then, within the low range. Even moderate to low cases of true autism involve stunted social and personal development. In such cases the character just wouldn't seem to be a realistic romantic interest in a high-school aged setting as it would take much more time for a character with true autism, as has been suggested, to mature emotionally and mentally enough for such relationships. And even then, it is not uncommon for sufferers to simply show no interest in such things their whole lives.
My main point, I find it very hard to think that a romantic VN with an autistic heroine could be very...good?
I believe in media these days, it is popular to assume that awkward, weird, rude, and/or obsessive characters have asperger's. This drives me nuts sometimes. Any awkward guy or gal does not show that distinctive closed-off or rather unaware tendency.

TankToast wrote:I wouldn't be ok with any disability that affects a character's cognitive or behavioral abilities. That seems unhealthy and easily exploitative. So I wouldn't be ok with autism unless it was only within the asperger spectrum. And even then, within the low range. Even moderate to low cases of true autism involve stunted social and personal development. In such cases the character just wouldn't seem to be a realistic romantic interest in a high-school aged setting as it would take much more time for a character with true autism, as has been suggested, to mature emotionally and mentally enough for such relationships. And even then, it is not uncommon for sufferers to simply show no interest in such things their whole lives.
My main point, I find it very hard to think that a romantic VN with an autistic heroine could be very...good?
I believe in media these days, it is popular to assume that awkward, weird, rude, and/or obsessive characters have asperger's. This drives me nuts sometimes. Any awkward guy or gal does not show that distinctive closed-off or rather unaware tendency.

I'd have to disagree with you, a person with high functioning autism or asperger syndrome are generally by the age of 18-20 or so very developed emotionally, while their social skills might be lacking, they're not lacking in emotional capacity, and thus I think portraying a romance with someone who has a difficulty in social situations might actually be interesting, since it manifests differently from the usual "shy" character that features in a lot of movies/games/books/etc. and I don't see anything exploitable in it considering that people with these difficulties usually are quite smart and hardly someone that you can exploit easily. You might be right however that someone suffering from low functioning autism might not be possible without it seeming slightly unbelievable. So I guess I agree with you that far, but I still think the first example would fit perfectly in a story like this.

But in the end its all in the portrayal, you can make pretty much any relation seem unhealthy or wrong if you write it in intent of making it so.

Dibs on the Down's Syndrome girl. So moe.

OK - time for my thoughts as well...

MDV wrote: It takes place in a small city in a country in northern/western continental Europe.

How about making it in CENTRAL or EASTERN Europe instead? I'll give a laydown of some cities and my thoughts;

Vienna - the birthplace of Psychoanalysis discipline and where Sigmund Freud and Manfred Sakel first started his career, I think the city has both the historical importance of psychiatry studies as well as the grand "Europa" scenery feel to it that made the VN journey around the city (I assume the characters were not "disabled" enough to warrant full observation and isolation) to be worth an eyecandy. Think of Hisao pondering about his recent moodswings while sitting down in Cafe Hawelka - not a bad visual I think.

Innsbruck - Austria's "education" city, more rural, isolated and "alpine" feel into it but quite a number of psychiatry studies in the past has been done here.

Prague - it's damn beautiful, and the surrounding is a throwback to the past that we may even be excused to slip in a few gothic lolita characters and it wouldn't feel out of place at all.

Budapest - used to be the second capital to one of Europe's greatest empire. Therefore many of the psychiatry experts also collaborated with Viennese doctors and studies. Also, you can nearly fit EVERY type of European style of architecture in the city and it wouldn't be a miss.

Bucharest - this is when you want to go for a darker route VN, since Bucharest used to house quite a number of "questionable" institutions during the Soviet era and the era immediate after it. Imagine that the character is tourist mistaken for someone else and is thrown into an isolated institution in the heart of "dark" Europe and he has to make some social connection to the characters around him before he succumbed to the mental pressure.

MDV wrote: The main character is a in his late teens, and spent most of his adolescence being a no-lifer and spending his time on videogames and the internet.

Adding "Hikikomori" into the disabled list is quite interesting. It is a recently realized problem and is a serious "modern" one at it. Perfect "disability" for the main character or one of the heroines we are able to select, it's quite easy to write as well. I am pretty convinced some of the people here may have direct experience or exposure to this type of problem.

Honeymuffin wrote: I would like to include a character with bipolar disorder. People with this disorder are prone to random mood swings, can take virtually ANY comment as a personal attack, and they don't handle criticism very well at all. The main challenge for the writer of this path will be making the character endearing even though she's prone to taking things personally, twisting the main character's words, and flipping out over the smallest inconveniences. She'll also undergo both manic and depressive stages, and the nature of the MC's choices will vary based on those phases.

Excellent problem for the main character. The heartwrenching nature of feelings of isolation experienced by the main character and the consequences of his outburst would be interesting to observe.

Honeymuffin wrote: While I intend most girls' disabilities to either be a) socially bestowed or b) inborn, I would like both the MC and one of the girls to have received their disorder from some sort of accident.

I think this should not be a limitation? There could be more than one heroines to select and make connection to and I think once the characters are established it would probably up to the individual assigned writers to make about their assigned characters disability background and how the main character would go about it and make connection.

Honeymuffin wrote: Finally, disassociative identity disorder seems like a good fit for this type of game as well. I like the idea of having to please "multiple people" to win the heart of a single girl. This would probably be the most interesting path to write, and almost certainly the most confusing. I have a rough idea that I'd like the MC to aid in excising one of her more destructive personalities for what he thinks is her own good; how he goes about it seems like a good premise for the events surrounding the good/bad ending choice in her path.

I agree.

Here's my two cents. Why not start listing and categorizing most of the ideas into some structure? this may be the beginning about something beautiful

To be honest I was skeptical at first about having a VN with people of mental disabilities (I kind of have some experience being among them for some amount of time) but with some of the opinions and passion found here, I think I quite warmed up to the idea and would like to contribute if can.

If anything I may provide some rough sketches and characters as time goes by and scans it when time is permitting.

The ideas I posted are in no way "firm", and I wouldn't shed a tear if any of them don't end up in the finished product.

I mainly said what I said about inborn/socially bestowed disorders because those cases are far more common than disorders brought on by accidents, and I feel that those proportions should be reflected in the cast so that readers can more easily suspend their disbelief.

Wow...ok
You guys have sucked me in, lets do this. I'm really digging this idea. If people can get some good ideas on board here we can see about getting a core group together and moving discussion into its own forum
*Wow I accidentally my whole post...
I was thinking that something like depersonalization disorder could make for an interesting route as well, especially seeing as its often caused by trauma. Perhaps a route based on overcoming whatever trauma caused this in the first place?
And I think that insofar as the protagonist is mentally disturbed it should be in such a way that he is given the opportunity to grow through his budding relationship. I'd like to see stories focusing on a mutual relationship, which I did feel KS lacked somewhat of.

Honeymuffin wrote:The ideas I posted are in no way "firm", and I wouldn't shed a tear if any of them don't end up in the finished product.

Of course although to be honest some of the ideas you posted are brilliant. Again, I've warmed up to the idea and would like to contribute if can.

Honeymuffin wrote: I mainly said what I said about inborn/socially bestowed disorders because those cases are far more common than disorders brought on by accidents, and I feel that those proportions should be reflected in the cast so that readers can more easily suspend their disbelief.

Maybe a mix would be good. In any case real life mental disabilities that normally warrant a full psychiatry observation normally were observed in later stages in life rather than earlier.

QbertEnhanced wrote:Wow...ok
You guys have sucked me in, lets do this. I'm really digging this idea. If people can get some good ideas on board here we can see about getting a core group together and moving discussion into its own forum

Agreed but since the idea is still in its infancy, I think our first hope is to gather and detect enough passion before moving into an independent project...

Edit; I want to list further mental "disabilities" that MAY fit into this game's hero/heroines...

- Short term/Long term memory problems - target character with this problem will be difficult to make connection with. Remembering you at one point and have trouble associating your memories together next. Some movies have done with an *exaggerated* visualization of this problem before (I think 50 first dates?)
- Hikkikomori - I think should be self explanatory
- Brain cancer survivor - may have parts of the brain removed that warrants significant personality change - especially if the character is depicted BEFORE and AFTER cancer removal
- Dementia be it reversible or not. Maybe a product of Azheimer's or Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.
- Down's Syndrome as noted by one poster above (although DEFINITELY not for reasons of Moe)
- PTSD - could be from a war veteran or female war reporter having witnessed too much bloodshed?

This list may provide a quick look and reference for any of the disabilities for the characters to have

And I've seen some discussion about WHERE to place this. Perhaps in a school for children with behavioral problems? This could help in keeping the characters within a believable, and more importantly, relatable context. It'd also allow for parts of previous posters ideas (IE a girl with strong anti-establishment tendancies) and such to be meaningfully worked in.

QbertEnhanced wrote:And I've seen some discussion about WHERE to place this. Perhaps in a school for children with behavioral problems?

Again, LIST! (I sounded like a listing maniac here)

The setting could possibly be;
- School of children with behavioral problem
- Psychiatry ward / hospital
- Psychological Institute

Depending on the main characters occupation, each and any of the settings above could mean VERY differently to him. For example, is the character one of the affected children with mental problems? Or is the character one of the doctors/psychiatrist in charge of the patients and finding himself crossing professional borders and falling with them? Or is the character a normal person unfortunate to have relatives having a "mental disability" and his/her treatment brings the main character into contact with these mentally disabled persons and make connection with them?

Thoughts please...