Katawa Shoujo Forums

ever dealt with autists, Drake? I have

I am one according to the system.

Well, it looks to me that what happens is actually the opposite: you consider people with mental disabilities to be "different" (in place of having the disability, I mean).

She has mental issues and is practically batcrap insane (note that I said "practically" batcrap insane both times, which is different than regular batcrap insane). That is established pretty obviously in her route. She exhibits the traits of a person who suffers from mild autism (ever dealt with autists, Drake? I have) or some form of psychopathy, specially the lack of empathy and difficulty in feeling and expressing emotions. Those are a form of mental disability. I'm not saying Rin's retarded, in case that's what you thought I was saying. And I'm not saying that everyone that is socially inept or whatever has a mental disability, I'm saying that the specifics of Rin's case point to her having one.

Which should be enough proof that you don't understand her.

Slippery slope, slippery slope, not going there.

It isn't. What might have made you think that was the case, I wonder...

Well, you keep saying that she has one..

What do you think would have happened to her on the mid to long term without Hisao

Dunno? Same thing that happens to all the other people like her? Some give up, some fall to ruin, some manage to get by just fine. She's not the only one who has problems like that, never has been never will be.
Sides, I dun even know if she would have agreed to do the exhibition let alone pursue a career as an artist if Hisao wasn't there. I mean she seems like she's disconnected from the world but she's surprisingly perceptive of things, she was very hesitant about it after all and only suffered her breakdown as a result of becoming more involved with people. Needing Hisao as an example.

I think the choice of the word insane is way too harsh. Rin shows a variety of autistic tell-tale marks (I too have dealt with autists and autism a lot), but unlike people who usually classify for the "insane"-moniker she's not delusional. She's perfectly aware her behavior is considered odd, she just doesn't know how to change it. She can also be quite perceptive (like when she walks out on Hisao and Emi in Emi's route to give the two space to get closer to one another) as long as her one-track mind isn't completely occupied with something. ("I need to use your window") Unlike psychopaths, Rin is capable of caring about people, but has trouble expressing normal messages of affection.

People with autism are often split on whether their condition should be called a disability or simply a different mindset, but my personal opinion is that if it's giving someone as much trouble as it does Rin, calling her mindset a disability is more than justified, especially when you see how miserable and lonely it makes her on occasion.

That said, maybe this discussion belongs in another thread.

but my personal opinion is that if it's giving someone as much trouble as it does Rin, calling her mindset a disability is more than justified, especially when you see how miserable and lonely it makes her on occasion.

I can agree with that, thing is I'm wondering if that miserable and lonely bit would have occurred if Hisao wasn't there. She didn't really show any signs of that before he jumped in and in the end she didn't really change much, just went back to not worrying.

I think it would have. Loneliness is part of the reason she paints to begin with. It's not a stretch to imagine that even without Hisao, Nomiya would have eventually convinced her to go for the exposition idea and things might have gone even farther south. Also, Rin has been the way she is for as long as she can remember. I find it very hard to believe people yelling at her like Nomiya did because they can't understand her actions is a first-time experience for her. Most likely, these kinds of conflicts have happened before in her life. Her deadpan snarker side is what most people see, but it's not all she is, even when she's not under pressure.

Well yes, but I was more so referring to her ability to just shrug off things and move along without to much care. She only really started to appear to be weighed down by things after she got close to Hisao and Nomiya, two people she considered friends, and she kept asking Hisao to confirm that if you recall.

I'm just wondering if the same events would have happened if Hisao never got involved and she remained aloft as always, like if you went down another path such things aren't even brought up really. I have no doubt something would have eventually occurred in some point and time in her life, if not because of her art then something else but that is neither here nor there. That happens to everyone and she may well be a different person by then. I feel too little (meaning nothing) is actually known about Rin before she met Hisao to say for sure.
I think all of them would have found their way even without Hisao though, least I like to think so.

My impression is that you don't start calling a particular spot "the worry tree" unless you've visited that place a lot. I think Rin isn't nearly as capable of shrugging stuff off as she appears to in Act 1.

Maybe I suppose, but I always thought she just made up the worry tree and picked a random tree out of nowhere. Least that's the impression I was getting from Hisao.

Drake wrote:Maybe I suppose, but I always thought she just made up the worry tree and picked a random tree out of nowhere. Least that's the impression I was getting from Hisao.

Well, yeah, but the fact that she has a place that she spends time to get away her worries most probably means that she has done it several times before. She may not have a certain tree called the "Worry Tree" but she has place where she worries, and picks out a Worry tree on a whim.

Drake wrote:I am one according to the system.

If that's the case, I admit I'm utterly dumbfounded by your words and attitude. Although, come to think of it, maybe that explains them...

Drake wrote:Slippery slope, slippery slope, not going there.

Then we can end the discussion here. You keep avoiding its main point, so I don't see a reason to bother with it.

Drake wrote:Well, you keep saying that she has one..

Because she does (or at the very least acts like she does, and that is not my perception: nobody acts like that for no reason; basically, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...), not because of how I perceive her. You, on the other hand, seem to be be implying that someone who lacks empathy, has difficulties experiencing emotions and is unable to convey said emotions is perfectly normal, when anyone with half a working braincell will tell you that those are pretty obvious signs of things like autism or psychopathy. You're the first one I've seen implying that Rin doesn't have any mental issues and she's just a bit weird.

Drake wrote:Dunno? Same thing that happens to all the other people like her? Some give up, some fall to ruin, some manage to get by just fine. She's not the only one who has problems like that, never has been never will be.
Sides, I dun even know if she would have agreed to do the exhibition let alone pursue a career as an artist if Hisao wasn't there. I mean she seems like she's disconnected from the world but she's surprisingly perceptive of things, she was very hesitant about it after all and only suffered her breakdown as a result of becoming more involved with people. Needing Hisao as an example.

Yeah, we don't know. Sure, a giant pink rabbit from space could kidnap her and take her to the Moon where they would live happily ever after. Now, can we be reasonable about this and make assumptions based on what we know from playing her route, so our predictions have at least a modicum of plausability? I've already done so, and I expected you to comply, instead of taking the easy way out (something you seem to like doing, by the way, judging from how you describe anything you don't want to talk about as a "slippery slope" and then refuse to discuss it).

I should note, however, that the cause of her breakdown is not exactly becoming more involved with people, but the fact that people failed to meet her expectations: she expected them to understand her through her paintings, without her needing to explain anything (I'm sure you noticed she doesn't exactly like having to explain herself), and they kept asking her questions because they didn't understand. She cracked under the pressure of having to explain herself to so many people at the same time, and because she kept thinking that she had failed as an artist since she was unable to make people understand her through art.
And I should note that yes, she most likely picks the Worry Tree on the spot, but that doesn't mean that's the first and only Worry Tree. The Worry Tree is merely a symbol, any place where she goes to worry and to think about stuff that's giving her trouble probably qualifies as a Worry Tree (or Worry Whatever, if she still retains enough of her sanity to not call a tree things that aren't a tree) for her.

Hah, if someone who hasn't finished her route reads our posts, there will be large quantities of RAGE. Spoilers everywhere.

Anyway, and to conclude what already is a very long post, I agree with the Guest above that perhaps "insane" wasn't the best choice of words, although I believe I have adressed that point already and explained that I qualified that word with an adverb that slightly changes its intended meaning. But to deny that Rin has mental issues and exhibits traits that are common among, for example, autists... I really can't see how anyone could do that with a straight face. It's pretty much an established fact for just about anyone that has completed her route paying a bit of attention to things.

Lilly - Can't see much changing here despite it being such an intrusive condition.
Hanako - Wouldn't be so shy/self conscious
Shizune - Probably wouldn't have Misha as a friend, would be very talkative and pretty damn annoying :p
Emi - All the bubblyness without the fear of getting close to people(Im assuming her father would be still alive)
Rin - Would be Da freakin Vinci

Really the only person who would have an actual personality change would be hanako IMO.

Well the reason I take the easy way out as you put it is cause it really is a slippery slope. I know that if we persist in the argument it will never end cause neither one of us can be right cause neither can be wrong. I know this because I've had such arguments before.

So lets find common ground, the general perception of a mental disability. She has emotional and possible mental troubles that prevent her from interacting with people as an average person would. This in turn causes people to lack an understanding of what she's trying to say which in turn distresses her even more.
She has issues, yep. But the issues stem from the fact that people have trouble understanding her, I understand that way of thinking and I agree. Speaking from that perspective, yes, she does have emotional and mental issues.

Now look at it from my perspective. I am VERY wary of when I use the term "mental illness" and the like, namely because I am supposedly mildly autistic and I am aware that I show signs of being one. But at the same time I can mingle in society just fine, and I can get along with people well enough that it never even comes up. I admit being somewhat prejudice about this, which may be why I leap the gun at this sort of things. To me having a disability means that you need to be fixed, it may not be your specific intention, but that is the most common one I encounter. Because of that I am very, very wary of when I use such terms.
To use a metaphor, it is like a puzzle, one that is easy for some and difficult for others, the common ground for this sort of thing just encompasses the majority but still leaves out others. You say Rin is mentally ill, I just say that you need to take the time to figure her out, there's no need to try and change her.

If her distress was cause by the fact that people couldn't understand her, your solution would be to fix her? Mine would be to take the time to understand her. That's all it is, that's why this argument will go nowhere.
On a side note, for me her breakdown started the night they started smoking, when she was having trouble drawing. That's when the cracks started being defined, what happened at the gallery opening was just the point where it all shattered, I think prior to that point she could more or less have managed.

But Rin is a complex character, I could have a million different interpretations of the events that took place, but as Hisao said: That is different from actually understanding something.

I'm having the impression that your reasoning is "Me = autistic & Rin = autistic", so if someone says "Rin = insane" that would mean that person is also saying "Me = insane". But I don't think anybody's trying to insult you.

That said, I'm not sure if your "you just need to take the time to understand her"-argument is all that valid. The very reason Hisao gets so frustrated with Rin in her arc is exactly BECAUSE he's making an honest attempt to understand her, but she remains a living, walking riddle to him. At the end, Hisao manages to salvage their relationship by accepting the fact he'll probably never be able to truly understand Rin, but as long as they can manage a way to get their affection across in some way they'll be able to stay together.

I'm having the impression that your reasoning is "Me = autistic & Rin = autistic", so if someone says "Rin = insane" that would mean that person is also saying "Me = insane". But I don't think anybody's trying to insult you.

No, that is not what I think and yes I know that, thank you.

The very reason Hisao gets so frustrated with Rin in her arc is exactly BECAUSE he's making an honest attempt to understand her, but she remains a living, walking riddle to him.

Well yes, but to be honest, and I have said this before. Hisao really appears to be rather...inept to me in Rin's path. I get the purpose of him being that way is to develop the story and such, but I was quite literally going "No! Dude! WTF?!" while playing. His patience with her is truly admirable, but everything else, I dunno, felt so frustrating. It's just not the way I would have gone, for better or worse.

purple haired Katawa Shoujo character wrote:Hanako - Everything would change

Disagree, I think Hanako would be a pretty strong introvert even if she were uninjured and had a loving, living family. I think much of her behavior represents normal, healthy aspects of her personality, which express themselves in unhealthy ways due to her painful experiences. I'm pretty sure she'd still be quiet and retiring if that weren't the case. More confident, less avoidant, more able to function socially, sure, but a difference of degree rather than type.

I think the same would be true for Emi, but in the opposite direction. I doubt she'd be quite so gung-ho without the dead parent. Still peppy and bubbly, but wouldn't have the same kind of drive. She'd run because she liked it, and probably wouldn't care so much about winning races or continually pushing her limits.