Katawa Shoujo Forums

My plan would be to join the council AND try to get closer to Lilly and Hanako. Since they need every help they can get in the council she would have to tolerate my friendship with her "enemies" so I might try to use that to at least reduce the conflict among the two sides.

Also, such strong rivalry would make a great match of Risk!
http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles ... lind.shtml

Maybe with time hate could be changed to rivalry.

Rivan wrote: Still, given the fact that she's ready to bully Hanako because her only friend is Lilly makes her come out a bit negative. Very negative, in fact.

I would say that since Shizune is so obsessive about studies and rules see Hanako arriving late and leaving in the middle of the class is inadmissible. Maybe due to the dificulty in communication Shizune doesn't try very hard to understand others.

On another note, I know that not every deaf person can read lips, but I would expect someone so competitive as Shizune be not only able to but also very skilled at it. (So she can monitore the other people even more efficiently)

Rivan wrote:there isn't nor there should be a middle ground. You cannot be friends with everyone

In these games isn't the classic outcome to if you try to be nice to all girls is to end the game never getting more "intimate" with none of them?

te-kun wrote: On another note, I know that not every deaf person can read lips, but I would expect someone so competitive as Shizune be not only able to but also very skilled at it. (So she can monitore the other people even more efficiently)

She's mute too, and has been since birth. Even if she could understand vocalized language (which may or may not be possible for someone who's mute, I have no idea), she can't communicate with it as a medium. I've heard that most people who are deaf but not mute learn lip-reading so that they can still hold "normal" conversations with others (assuming they can also manage to speak without hearing themselves), but Shizune does not have that luxury. I suppose it could be possible for her to lip-read, but it hasn't been written into Act 1 and I don't think it's very likely.

Brogurt wrote:She's mute too, and has been since birth. Even if she could understand vocalized language (which may or may not be possible for someone who's mute, I have no idea), she can't communicate with it as a medium. I've heard that most people who are deaf but not mute learn lip-reading so that they can still hold "normal" conversations with others (assuming they can also manage to speak without hearing themselves), but Shizune does not have that luxury. I suppose it could be possible for her to lip-read, but it hasn't been written into Act 1 and I don't think it's very likely.

Maybe by having such dedicated interpreter as Misha she might never bothered to learn to read lips. I would say that Japanese should be easier to read lips since it have a reduced amount of phonemes in comparison to English...

te-kun wrote:

Brogurt wrote:She's mute too, and has been since birth. Even if she could understand vocalized language (which may or may not be possible for someone who's mute, I have no idea), she can't communicate with it as a medium. I've heard that most people who are deaf but not mute learn lip-reading so that they can still hold "normal" conversations with others (assuming they can also manage to speak without hearing themselves), but Shizune does not have that luxury. I suppose it could be possible for her to lip-read, but it hasn't been written into Act 1 and I don't think it's very likely.

Maybe by having such dedicated interpreter as Misha she might never bothered to learn to read lips. I would say that Japanese should be easier to read lips since it have a reduced amount of phonemes in comparison to English...

Actually that sounds very reasonable. The amount of diferent sounds is lower tan most languages but on the other hand this makes for other possible problems. As they have less diferent sounds, they some times make the duration important to increase the number of difernt words. One typical example is byouin (hospital) vs biyouin (hairdresser's) where the duration of the "syllables" make all the diference and there are even better examples where if it's a longer or shorter o the word is completely diferent. So I'm not actually sure if it's actually easier or harder but still I would think it might be easier.

te-kun wrote:Maybe by having such dedicated interpreter as Misha she might never bothered to learn to read lips. I would say that Japanese should be easier to read lips since it have a reduced amount of phonemes in comparison to English...

Remember, Shizune only met Misha in Yamaku, so she hasn't had Misha all her life. I'm not sure if this means she hasn't had an interpreter all her life as well, but I think that's plausible. If anything, I see Shizune as the type would constantly strive to improve herself. Reading lips would make it easier for her to know what others are saying.

Yukimi wrote: Actually that sounds very reasonable. The amount of diferent sounds is lower tan most languages but on the other hand this makes for other possible problems. As they have less diferent sounds, they some times make the duration important to increase the number of difernt words. One typical example is byouin (hospital) vs biyouin (hairdresser's) where the duration of the "syllables" make all the diference and there are even better examples where if it's a longer or shorter o the word is completely diferent. So I'm not actually sure if it's actually easier or harder but still I would think it might be easier.

Even those aren't that big problem... but if it were Chinese she would be damned!

There was a discussion on this earlier. Lip reading is...imperfect at best. Even for an average person who is familiar with listening to and speaking the language, lip reading is hardly spot on all the time. Asian languages also suffer from being composed of a fairly narrow set of monosyllabic components that are distinguished through intonation. Thus, a translator is much more reliable and surefire.

As for a middle ground, its possible that the conflict between Shizune and Lilly will play a role in one of their paths, in which case a middle ground option may be available. If not, there probably isnt much else that can be done. Shizune and Lilly have diametrically opposite personalities so they will likely never be very close friends. Lilly's calm and orderly manner and Shizune's competitive and aggressive personality simply don't mix well. It doesn't help that the two probably both see themselves as being in the right. Shizune is frustrated by Lilly's slow and get around to it attitude, and probably sees Lilly as lazy or not taking her position seriously. Conversely, Lilly probably sees Shizune as being needlessly demanding and harassing. Resolution or mediation of this conflict will possibly be part of one of their paths, but don't ask for too much.

Shades of Grey wrote:There was a discussion on this earlier. Lip reading is...imperfect at best. Even for an average person who is familiar with listening to and speaking the language, lip reading is hardly spot on all the time. Asian languages also suffer from being composed of a fairly narrow set of monosyllabic components that are distinguished through intonation. Thus, a translator is much more reliable and surefire.

As for a middle ground, its possible that the conflict between Shizune and Lilly will play a role in one of their paths, in which case a middle ground option may be available. If not, there probably isnt much else that can be done. Shizune and Lilly have diametrically opposite personalities so they will likely never be very close friends. Lilly's calm and orderly manner and Shizune's competitive and aggressive personality simply don't mix well. It doesn't help that the two probably both see themselves as being in the right. Shizune is frustrated by Lilly's slow and get around to it attitude, and probably sees Lilly as lazy or not taking her position seriously. Conversely, Lilly probably sees Shizune as being needlessly demanding and harassing. Resolution or mediation of this conflict will possibly be part of one of their paths, but don't ask for too much.

I don't think intonation is that important in Japanese. It is fundamental in Chinese but in Japanese it isn't. The example used before byouin=びょういん=hospital
and biyouin=びよういん. The intonation isn't that important but sometimes the time is (you just sound weird if you talk with the wrong intonation).

So at least for Japanese I see no problem with lip reading. Not that one would be able to understand 100% of what people say at any time in any condition but hey! I don't understand 100% of what people say at any time in any condition either!

Edit: continuation...

In Chinese when different words share the same sounds they are differenciated by the intonation and duration. Like 媽=mother and sounds like ma and 馬=horse and sounds like ma. (My chinese friend swear that there is a difference but they sound the same to me)
In Japanese when two different words have the same sound they are differenciated by context only like 鼻=はな=nose and sounds like hana and 花=はな=flower and sounds like hana. There is no difference at all between them if you go just by the sound. Only in kanji there is a difference. I think this is because any Japanese word can be written with hiragana and katakana and there is no character to indicate difference in intonation so な(na) will always sound like "na" disregard of what word it is in.

What Te-kun said. I've studied Japanese for several years and Chinese for two and the 4 tones and variations are incredibly important in Chinese (and it's true they are easily diferentiable) but in JApanese there are veyr veyr few words or expressions were intonation is important (deshou and hashi being the only two that come to my mind at the moment). Also in Chinese if the "syllable" before had X or Z tone, the one after may change its intonation. It's simply one way of expanding the amount of diferent words I think... Chinese were fairly more complicated in ancient time when all words (I think) and it led to some confusions even for hearing people /Rant over.

Yeah, I guess because Japanese and Chinese share the same ideograms people assume that they are similar in speak too but they are totally different languages that happen to share part of their characters. It's like think that English and Russian are similar because they share some of their characters.

Is there a middle ground between cripple girls and linguistics? That seems to be a better question.
If you're thinking of that, then fuck you.

A middle ground between cripple girls and linguistics? Dislexia?

>Dyslexia
That's acceptable. I wonder how well Shizune or other deafmutes would get along with people who have disabilities along those lines. Not necessarily blindness, but anything that prevents them from reading written language but not sign language, or the other way around.
At least, I like to think that the rivalry is because of a language barrier rather than something more sinister. But that would be boring, wouldn't it?

te-kun wrote: I don't think intonation is that important in Japanese. It is fundamental in Chinese but in Japanese it isn't. The example used before byouin=びょういん=hospital
and biyouin=びよういん. The intonation isn't that important but sometimes the time is (you just sound weird if you talk with the wrong intonation).

So at least for Japanese I see no problem with lip reading. Not that one would be able to understand 100% of what people say at any time in any condition but hey! I don't understand 100% of what people say at any time in any condition either!

Edit: continuation...

In Chinese when different words share the same sounds they are differenciated by the intonation and duration. Like 媽=mother and sounds like ma and 馬=horse and sounds like ma. (My chinese friend swear that there is a difference but they sound the same to me)
In Japanese when two different words have the same sound they are differenciated by context only like 鼻=はな=nose and sounds like hana and 花=はな=flower and sounds like hana. There is no difference at all between them if you go just by the sound. Only in kanji there is a difference. I think this is because any Japanese word can be written with hiragana and katakana and there is no character to indicate difference in intonation so な(na) will always sound like "na" disregard of what word it is in.

I apologize for making a semi-uninformed statement. I admit that I am familiar with chinese, while not as familiar with japanese (i hear and read it sometimes, but i don't really understand it yet). That said, even if japanese avoids that particular pitfall, its still does not make lip reading completely practical. at the risk of making another poorly informed statement, I get the impression that has a higher quantity of words that sound relatively similar such as your biyouin example earlier. Since the mouth motions for those are the same, distinguishing the difference is rather hard.

Even disregarding any specific problems caused by the language, lip reading is usually a crapshoot. The main problem is that not all sounds that can be made by the mouth can also be distinguished by the mouth movements. This is because we make many sounds using our tongue and throat, which isn't always readily visible as a distinct mouth movement. Thus (according to some estimates) you can, for example only lip read about 1/3 of a conversation without also having some hearing reinforcement. Imagine if one in every 3 syllables of a conversation suddenly became indistinguishable to you. At best, thats a vague understanding of what going on, and at worst its complete gibberish. Without being able to hear any sound at all, lip reading would be a desperate last resort to get any idea of whats being said.