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Meh the DARPA stuff isn't as mind blowing as people think.

Independent researchers are coming up with the same systems only difference is that unlike them DARPA doesn't release its information. The only interesting thing about the limbs they're making now are actually the modular design.

Skul gun wrote:Meh the DARPA stuff isn't as mind blowing as people think.

Independent researchers are coming up with the same systems only difference is that unlike them DARPA doesn't release its information. The only interesting thing about the limbs they're making now are actually the modular design.

So, if DARPA researchers don't release info as fast as other researchers how can you claim to make an authoritative comparison? You can more properly say the state of development publicly acknowledged is different. It is pretty much impossible to tell the state of research that is yet unpublished from all public, private and classified researchers.

You raise a valid point.

However among what they have released so far the only thing that stands out is the robust & modular design.

Their current arm thats popular in the media (dubbed the Luke arm) may offer a lot of degrees of movement (18 to the human 22) but it is still controlled using your feet and shoulders. Yes thats right it is not designed to take a control signal from the nervous system.

However DARPA does have another project in the works utilizing myoelectric sensors. So we can't discount the possibility of a future change in the control system.

Currently though all that stands out is its robust and modular design.

Point is made wrote:You raise a valid point.

However among what they have released so far the only thing that stands out is the robust & modular design.

Their current arm thats popular in the media (dubbed the Luke arm) may offer a lot of degrees of movement (18 to the human 22) but it is still controlled using your feet and shoulders. Yes thats right it is not designed to take a control signal from the nervous system.

However DARPA does have another project in the works utilizing myoelectric sensors. So we can't discount the possibility of a future change in the control system.

Currently though all that stands out is its robust and modular design.

Thats good to hear... all you need now is the brain-processor interface... which is like building a computer (with hardware) and now you need the software/UI to complete it.

Member22 wrote:Thats good to hear... all you need now is the brain-processor interface... which is like building a computer (with hardware) and now you need the software/UI to complete it.

You need soooo much more than that.

First you need a way to interface with the nerves. Then you need to figure out the signals for each movement and then you have to figure out a way to keep the sensory equipment stable as even a slight slip will render you unable to move the arm.

One current trick involves attatching the cut nerves in a stump to the muscles around it giving the electrical signal enough of a boost to be picked up by electrodes on the skin. But then you still have to get the control signal data sorted out.

You know nothing NOTHING wrote:

Member22 wrote:Thats good to hear... all you need now is the brain-processor interface... which is like building a computer (with hardware) and now you need the software/UI to complete it.

You need soooo much more than that.

First you need a way to interface with the nerves. Then you need to figure out the signals for each movement and then you have to figure out a way to keep the sensory equipment stable as even a slight slip will render you unable to move the arm.

One current trick involves attatching the cut nerves in a stump to the muscles around it giving the electrical signal enough of a boost to be picked up by electrodes on the skin. But then you still have to get the control signal data sorted out.

That may have been the path they were looking at in the past, but if you read the DARPA proposal you will see they propose to try to create an interface directly implanted in the brain (in-vivo neural recording interfaces). They are looking beyond reading truncated nerves and looking for ways to go directly to the neural signal source.

The purpose of Amendment 01 is to replace the DARPA-BAA-10-32 version dated 3 March 2010 with the version dated 4 March 2010. See full DARPA-BAA-10-32, dated 4 March 2010, attached.

Original posting below.


DARPA seeks to understand the failure mechanisms for in-vivo neural recording interfaces. This will involve thorough tissue assessment using current and potential materials and designs. Ultimately, DARPA desires to develop predictive models of failure, robust indicators of interface reliability, repeatable insertion methodologies, and high-throughput biological test techniques. See full DARPA-BAA-10-32 attached.

Which is nothing that is not being done by other teams. Also as it stands their only working prototypes use the switch system as it stands they only have theory in regards to nervous system control.

As it stands based on whats been released they might even be behind civilian research.

Things like the iLimb (such a stupid name...) are ahead of DARPA in nerve control although that relies on a non-invasive link. Massively cheaper too.

BOOP wrote:Which is nothing that is not being done by other teams. Also as it stands their only working prototypes use the switch system as it stands they only have theory in regards to nervous system control.

As it stands based on whats been released they might even be behind civilian research.

Things like the iLimb (such a stupid name...) are ahead of DARPA in nerve control although that relies on a non-invasive link. Massively cheaper too.

Massively cheaper? I suppose if you do not consider a 70 year lifespan and the physiological changes of aging on the stump. A Bic lighter is also massively cheaper than a Zippo lighter. Which one has a better chance of lasting 70 years?
*Shrug* Until all research avenues are fully explored to the limits of todays state of the art no one can say what is the best. Of course, at one time the "state of the art" battlefield treatment for a wound to a limb was often amputation of the limb. "State of the art" is not a static target and 15 years could bring changes that would make this discussion as obsolete as a discussion about which stone makes the best spear point.

Bara wrote:Massively cheaper? I suppose if you do not consider a 70 year lifespan and the physiological changes of aging on the stump. A Bic lighter is also massively cheaper than a Zippo lighter. Which one has a better chance of lasting 70 years?
*Shrug* Until all research avenues are fully explored to the limits of todays state of the art no one can say what is the best. Of course, at one time the "state of the art" battlefield treatment for a wound to a limb was often amputation of the limb. "State of the art" is not a static target and 15 years could bring changes that would make this discussion as obsolete as a discussion about which stone makes the best spear point.

Haven't gone with flint yet? Gotta get with the times man. But yeah, just look around at what we thought was the best back in 1995.

Bara wrote:Massively cheaper? I suppose if you do not consider a 70 year lifespan and the physiological changes of aging on the stump. A Bic lighter is also massively cheaper than a Zippo lighter. Which one has a better chance of lasting 70 years?
*Shrug* Until all research avenues are fully explored to the limits of todays state of the art no one can say what is the best. Of course, at one time the "state of the art" battlefield treatment for a wound to a limb was often amputation of the limb. "State of the art" is not a static target and 15 years could bring changes that would make this discussion as obsolete as a discussion about which stone makes the best spear point.

Not everyone can afford high quality prosthetics.

Even the cost of good ones is prohibitive to many. Even in countries with universal healthcare the cost often prevents them from getting them.

DARPAs current arm has people guessing at a price of at least one hundred thousand dollars per unit. That is with its current control system too. That is not including inevitable servicing, replacement parts, breakages, etc as far as I know. Although at that price insurance isn't out of the realms of possibility.

Other arms may not have as much range of motions but are cheaper and thus easier to get. The iLimb (Still hate that fucking name) is available now and costs just under twenty thousand dollars for the arm itself. Associated costs (fitting, socket build, clinical services, etc) brings that up to around sixty thousand.

Find me health insurance that would cover high grade prosthetics like that. Find me someone who's not only prepared but able to take out a mortgage to buy an arm.


In the future yeah they'll be cheaper. In the future the current DARPA arm will be antiquated (like its current control system). But looking at the near future this is not the case.

This is my field. Don't think you can outdo me on this.


Also Emi's legs bug me. How can she afford legs like that? Those are going to be high impact running legs. You're looking at approx twenty grand per leg not including fitting, etc albeit she'll have had that anyways so mayhaps not include it so that cost will have been smaller.

Does she have other legs? We're already looking at sixty grand worth of legs (a spare is advised).

The girl either has rich parents or parents who are happy to sink a lot money into the girl considering she'll need new ones every year or two (or at least adjustments). No way any medical insurance would cover running legs, they're non-essential.

I'm Misha wrote:

Bara wrote:Massively cheaper? I suppose if you do not consider a 70 year lifespan and the physiological changes of aging on the stump. A Bic lighter is also massively cheaper than a Zippo lighter. Which one has a better chance of lasting 70 years?
*Shrug* Until all research avenues are fully explored to the limits of todays state of the art no one can say what is the best. Of course, at one time the "state of the art" battlefield treatment for a wound to a limb was often amputation of the limb. "State of the art" is not a static target and 15 years could bring changes that would make this discussion as obsolete as a discussion about which stone makes the best spear point.

Not everyone can afford high quality prosthetics.

Even the cost of good ones is prohibitive to many. Even in countries with universal healthcare the cost often prevents them from getting them.

DARPAs current arm has people guessing at a price of at least one hundred thousand dollars per unit. That is with its current control system too. That is not including inevitable servicing, replacement parts, breakages, etc as far as I know. Although at that price insurance isn't out of the realms of possibility.

Other arms may not have as much range of motions but are cheaper and thus easier to get. The iLimb (Still hate that fucking name) is available now and costs just under twenty thousand dollars for the arm itself. Associated costs (fitting, socket build, clinical services, etc) brings that up to around sixty thousand.

Find me health insurance that would cover high grade prosthetics like that. Find me someone who's not only prepared but able to take out a mortgage to buy an arm.


In the future yeah they'll be cheaper. In the future the current DARPA arm will be antiquated (like its current control system). But looking at the near future this is not the case.

Since there are many people who can't afford glasses or dental care shouldn't society stop all work on prosthetics until these much cheaper and more easily met needs are taken care of first? Rather a silly idea isn't it? Particularly for those amputees than need and can afford them.
You can object to DARPA's bureaucratic slowness or other problems, but long term, pie-in-the-sky research is a valid part of their mission. Writing your congressman is a better use of your time than trying to convince me that only certain avenues of research should be explored.

I'm Misha wrote:This is my field. Don't think you can outdo me on this.

Possibly too much familiarity has channeled your mind into considering only the options you are familiar and comfortable with? Trying to outdo you? Merely having an opinion that research in prosthetics by any agency, public or private, is good is trying to outdo you? Or is it because I mentioned DARPA? Did they kill your dog or do you wrong personally that you respond like a bull seeing a red cape at the mention of the agency? How about I declare you "Official Internet Winner" while maintaining my own opinions; please, only use this awesome power for the good of mankind.

I'm Misha wrote:Also Emi's legs bug me. How can she afford legs like that? Those are going to be high impact running legs. You're looking at approx twenty grand per leg not including fitting, etc albeit she'll have had that anyways so mayhaps not include it so that cost will have been smaller.

Does she have other legs? We're already looking at sixty grand worth of legs (a spare is advised).

The girl either has rich parents or parents who are happy to sink a lot money into the girl considering she'll need new ones every year or two (or at least adjustments). No way any medical insurance would cover running legs, they're non-essential.

I believe in Act 2 they introduce the "Magical Prosthetics Fairy" into the story to alleviate this concern. I seriously doubt the Devs will gut the storyline to address your concerns. If you ask them nicely maybe they will supply an accounting of all the parents and the schools finances for you as an appendix... or maybe not.
Readers are required to bring a suspension of disbelief to a fictional story. If it is beyond your ability to sufficiently suspend your disbelief for the duration of KS then obviously KS is not a story you should invest your time into.

Definition fiction noun
/ˈfɪk.ʃən/ n
•
the type of book or story which is written about imaginary characters and events and not based on real people and facts

Bara wrote: Since there are many people who can't afford glasses or dental care shouldn't society stop all work on prosthetics until these much cheaper and more easily met needs are taken care of first? Rather a silly idea isn't it? Particularly for those amputees than need and can afford them.
You can object to DARPA's bureaucratic slowness or other problems, but long term, pie-in-the-sky research is a valid part of their mission. Writing your congressman is a better use of your time than trying to convince me that only certain avenues of research should be explored.

At what point am I suggesting they shouldn't do it?

The arm is a wonder of tech in its range of motion and its emphasis on a modular design has long been advocated in the prosthetics community but never explored in depth, the fact that they're doing it is good. The control system is fucking shit though and is barely a step above lever and hinge prosthetic arms that are almost always discarded by patients.

I like DARPA. I like their focus on wacky tech I just hate to see them swinging so poorly.


Also you assume incorrectly that I'm American. Shame on you.

Bara wrote: Possibly too much familiarity has channeled your mind into considering only the options you are familiar and comfortable with? Trying to outdo you? Merely having an opinion that research in prosthetics by any agency, public or private, is good is trying to outdo you? Or is it because I mentioned DARPA? Did they kill your dog or do you wrong personally that you respond like a bull seeing a red cape at the mention of the agency? How about I declare you "Official Internet Winner" while maintaining my own opinions; please, only use this awesome power for the good of mankind.

I won't be remotely satisfied until I create a full body prosthesis and even then I'll never be content with it, making constant improvements.

Bara wrote:
I believe in Act 2 they introduce the "Magical Prosthetics Fairy" into the story to alleviate this concern. I seriously doubt the Devs will gut the storyline to address your concerns. If you ask them nicely maybe they will supply an accounting of all the parents and the schools finances for you as an appendix... or maybe not.
Readers are required to bring a suspension of disbelief to a fictional story. If it is beyond your ability to sufficiently suspend your disbelief for the duration of KS then obviously KS is not a story you should invest your time into.

Definition fiction noun
/ˈfɪk.ʃən/ n
•
the type of book or story which is written about imaginary characters and events and not based on real people and facts

[/quote]

Well now that fairy does certainly explain a lot.

Although to be honest I never liked Emi any ways. Give me a Shizune any day.