Katawa Shoujo Forums

Oddball wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:09 am

That's what I'm saying, you're complaining that he's not "in character," but I have no idea what he is "supposed" to be in this sense aside from a boring audience stand-in

Like I said, you don't know who he's supposed to be.

Basically you're making up a new character and calling him Hisao. To an extent this is okay, we al have our own takes on the characters and sometimes make slight alterations for the stories to work. It's just that you're essentially starting with a blank slate, saying it's something else, and coming up with something that doesn't work.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore though. It's your story. I just think you could actually do better if you put forth some effort and thought things through a bit more.

I'd take these complaints more seriously if you had something concrete to give me beyond "I didn't like it," "It didn't work," "This character is stupid," et cetera. You haven't given me one single example or comparison to show me how/why my Hisao veers too far away from the character as he's "supposed to be," much less any tips on how to write him instead, just this general sentiment that he is somehow wrong. I can't work with that.

Also, I put plenty of effort into the story and spent a lot of time thinking through what I wanted to do with it. It's fine that you don't like what I came up with, but making baseless insinuations like those in lieu of offering constructive suggestions heavily predisposes me towards rejecting your viewpoint. It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like my writing but I really don't appreciate being called lazy over it. That comment suggests your opinion is based on your perception of me as a person rather than being a legitimate take on the writing that I produced.

So I'm going to preface my thoughts on this story with a few qualifiers:

1) I really love what you've done with this story. A huge portion of that is thanks to the technical ability of your writing. There are some prominent examples I could rattle off, but the consistency in quality makes that moot.

2) I'm not hugely fond of 'Smut', which, you preface this route with a warning of. I was pleasantly surprise by how integral the sexual content was to this story however. But I think it's important to realise that I've entered this story with a somewhat pitched attitude, and much of my enjoyment may stem from how thoroughly this attitude has been reversed.


3) The response to this story has been, for the most part, mixed. For that reason, I'm going to attempt to address where some of the criticism is coming from, some of which I feel to be very valid, and some of which I believe to actually be a potential credit of the story's success. That being said, the two comments that I will engage with, are both very valid criticisms, and subjectivity is just that, subjective. Oddball and Mirage's comments don't come across as malicious to me, and in fact, I would stress again that I approached this story with a very similar attitude. For that reason, I'll be engaging with these comments, but I feel both have some validity.

4) Riposte is the first story I have engaged with to this level from Hanako Fancopter. My overall thoughts are now such, that should HF continue to write new stories with similarly controversial topics, I will approach them with a significantly more open mind.

The first point I'd like to engage with is the motivation for this story. This is a self-confessed,( at least conceptually), extrapolation of RikaBro's Rika, into a more exaggerated version. I think this requires more exploration then I am willing to commit at the moment, but the question that stems from this concept is whether or not your Rika is a fair extrapolation of RikaBro's Rika. That's a pretty subjective question in and of itself, because i think it requires a thorough re-read of 'Can You Open Your Heart', but also because I think Riposte can be separated into 3 distinct sections, which i will refer to throughout my discussion here, for now, here's the split I'd decide on:

Chapter 1 = Rika the Repeated
Chapter 2,3, = Rika as an object
The remaining chapters = Riposte Revived

The reason I highlight this as an important division now, is that Chapter 1 feels like an attempt to parody (maybe not paraody, but I can't think of the right word right now,) RikaBro's Rika, whilst Chapter 2 and 3 begin to illuminate Rika as a more creative character. The later chapters come into their own in fleshing out the attitude and behaviour of Rika's character in this regard. Perhaps paradoxically, Hisao also seems the most 'Hisao' in this first chapter too, and I believe that is a good moment to address Oddball's criticism that:

Much of this story seems rather out of character for Hisao. His is one of the dumbest Hisaos who's ever dumbassed and most of his actions don't feel like they make a lick of sense. They don't even seem to match his train of thought at most times.

This criticism is hard to respond to, because to some extent, I strongly agree with it. Hisao does seem out of character in chapter 2 through 4 and then potentially in 8 specifically, but what I'd like to point out is that Hisao's behaviour itself isn't necessarily out of character, but rather it's the train of thought that accompanies it that is problematic. For a moment that illustrates this brilliantly, in Chapter 2, Hisao muses on his new relationship with Rika:

Again I’m taken aback, even though I probably shouldn’t be. My first instinct is to say “yes,” because I’m pretty sure you don’t do the stuff we did if you aren’t even friends, but on second thought? Are we even friends? I actually can’t say it. I don’t know what the hell we are. That’s why I’m doing this to begin with.

In this moment, I think you master the complication Hisao finds himself in. He's confused, a little worried, and feeling like a pawn in someone else's game. But for each moment of this 'Hisaoish' reflection, there's a moment of peculiarly decisive, irrevocable action:

You know what? Fine. Let’s just fuck,” I spit at her.

There's a disconnect between these two states of Hisao, and I don't think it's necessarily unreconcilable, but the journey from these two destinations doesn't feel adequate. It may be a result of the short time frame you're setting this in, but Hisao seems to think with his penis in a far more literal sense then necessary in these scenes. On top of that, one thing that I think really adds to Hisao not feeling like Hisao in a really huge, but easy to fix way, is the colloquial swearing. He swears a lot, sometimes unnecessarily, which just doesn't seem to fit the thoughtful character you yourself have described in his musings.


Before this seems like more of the agreeing criticism that Oddball has already levelled, I would like to provide a counter-point that actually, Hisao is not so distinctly removed from the Hisao we know, and instead, you've made a deeply troubling situation into one of profound humanity through the interactions of Hisao and Rika. I'll begin with a selection of examples that demonstrate my point, and specify why I've chosen them afterwards:

I had been planning to skip afternoon classes. After lunch, I decide to stay. To my surprise and relief, Shizune and Misha don’t ask any more about Rika, nor do they make any attempts to rope me into the Student Council. They just sit and talk and eat. Most of their talking is done in sign while I sit silently, although Misha makes sure to occasionally give me some silly comment or another. I’m content with the arrangement as I wasn’t in a talkative mood anyways.

I manage to take better notes in the afternoon. When class gets out I already have a plan—I head straight to the library, grab a fantasy book, and sit down on the beanbags. Hanako arrives shortly afterwards, sitting closer to me than I would’ve expected. After fidgeting a bit she even lifts her head in my direction and stutters out a greeting, which I return graciously. The combination of her quiet presence and the distraction of the book helps to occupy me late into the night, until the library eventually closes and we walk out of it together. As we part ways outside, I even think I see the hint of a smile on her face as she waves goodbye.

By the time I go to bed I’m starting to feel like a human being again.

Chapter 3

Rika’s behavior is no different, of course. It’s my attitude that has changed, not hers. Still… I think I could get used to this.

Chapter 7

I think these examples to some degree speak for themselves, in how your Hisao is one forged in the flames of someone like Rika. (A chracter you've made consitent, from her initial fake-smoking to her later anti-drinking, anti-time wasting and anti-shortening of said time character,). Hisao is tourtuing himself, torturing Rika, and being tortured by her all in one, and you make it show expertly. He things the solution to his problems are in playing the game, in prioritising himself - he's taken the reigns on their relationship to an equal status. Yet, in a classic case of missing the mark, you've shown Hisao journey from little self-respect, to perhaps too much with this last chapter update. The story isn't shaping up for a happy ending, but even if Hisao's behaviour doesn't match up to the Hisao we know, I would say this journey has been a consistent one. Furthermore, if the devlopment you've shwon is anything to go on, this story doesn't need a happy ending. Sometimes people are ill-suited, sometimes they're not. But even if Hisao and Rika are wearing human suits, I hope you'll beleive me in saying they're well tailored ones, and are deeply human.

To conclude, I'd like to rexamine that split I made near the start of this comment. The first chapter is understandably different from the rest, in that they're a proof of concept, whilst I'd seperate the other two sections because, in chapter 2 and 3, Rika feels like a bad person. An unlikeable one, but the chapters that continue from that moment, succeed in highlighting the complexities of her character in a way that makes Hisao and Rika both seem like victims of themselves, rather than victims of each other.

Perhaps then, the title is misconstrued, and It’s not Riposte as in a quick and witty response, but Riposte as in a thrust into the dark; an unknown type of story that wins the hearts of some, and understandably not others.

Very thoughtful feedback Feurox, I really appreciate it.

Feurox wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:07 pm 2) I'm not hugely fond of 'Smut', which, you preface this route with a warning of. I was pleasantly surprise by how integral the sexual content was to this story however. But I think it's important to realise that I've entered this story with a somewhat pitched attitude, and much of my enjoyment may stem from how thoroughly this attitude has been reversed.

In a way this is actually less "smutty" than some of my other stories. It probably has the most instances of sex in it but I veer away from describing it directly after the first chapter, which was a deliberate choice (though there is still plenty of nudity and lewdness going on, no doubt).

3) The response to this story has been, for the most part, mixed. For that reason, I'm going to attempt to address where some of the criticism is coming from, some of which I feel to be very valid, and some of which I believe to actually be a potential credit of the story's success. That being said, the two comments that I will engage with, are both very valid criticisms, and subjectivity is just that, subjective. Oddball and Mirage's comments don't come across as malicious to me, and in fact, I would stress again that I approached this story with a very similar attitude. For that reason, I'll be engaging with these comments, but I feel both have some validity.

Yeah it was always going to draw mixed reactions. I agree Oddball and Mirage's comments are not malicious though I still take exception to the last one that Oddball left. Mirage's boils down to "didn't like it, stopped reading," which--while still delivered with his trademark harshness--is a completely fair remark, as no one is obligated to enjoy a story, regardless of its content or style.

4) Riposte is the first story I have engaged with to this level from Hanako Fancopter. My overall thoughts are now such, that should HF continue to write new stories with similarly controversial topics, I will approach them with a significantly more open mind.

This is probably the "edgiest" one I have outside of the "Evil Lilly" one-shots, which IMO are considerably more into "just for the meme" territory than this story (there is a reason I expanded this into a longer treatment while that premise is still just a couple one-offs). Maybe the Misha x Shizune one-shot I wrote explores some similar themes.

Much of this story seems rather out of character for Hisao. His is one of the dumbest Hisaos who's ever dumbassed and most of his actions don't feel like they make a lick of sense. They don't even seem to match his train of thought at most times.

This criticism is hard to respond to, because to some extent, I strongly agree with it. Hisao does seem out of character in chapter 2 through 4 and then potentially in 8 specifically, but what I'd like to point out is that Hisao's behaviour itself isn't necessarily out of character, but rather it's the train of thought that accompanies it that is problematic.

There's a disconnect between these two states of Hisao, and I don't think it's necessarily unreconcilable, but the journey from these two destinations doesn't feel adequate. It may be a result of the short time frame you're setting this in, but Hisao seems to think with his penis in a far more literal sense then necessary in these scenes. On top of that, one thing that I think really adds to Hisao not feeling like Hisao in a really huge, but easy to fix way, is the colloquial swearing. He swears a lot, sometimes unnecessarily, which just doesn't seem to fit the thoughtful character you yourself have described in his musings.

Yeah I basically have moments where he does or says something impulsively due to the heat of the moment, then others where he's able to sit back and actually think about whether he's doing what he wants to or not, typically depending on whether or not Rika is present and what she is or isn't doing to him. To take your example, the first quote is when he's talking to Shizune and Misha with Rika nowhere in sight, so he is able to think more clearly, while the second one where he does something stupid on an impulse is meant to be the moment in the fic where she has provoked and enraged him to the greatest extent, and she is right there throwing herself in his face to do it. You described that contrast probably better than I could myself a little ways further down in your post.

I do agree that the short time frame probably makes apparent personality changes in Hisao more jarring. I should go back and ensure that I'm drawing that "Rika-present" vs "Rika-not-present" distinction in his mindsets as clearly as I meant to.

I also agree on the swearing. I think in hindsight I should have him swearing little or none at all in early chapters, then progressively swearing more as he spends more time with Rika.

On thinking with his wang, this is where I have to push back a bit. Hisao in the game thinks with his dick and behaves stupidly towards sex in every single route, all 5 of them, having sex that is:

--Unsafe (all routes but Hanako)
--Emotionally inappropriate/questionable (Hanako/Rin)
--Or in a place where someone might walk in on them who they'd really rather not (Shizune at her dad's house/Lilly on the living room floor with Hanako in the same house; he couldn't even be bothered to move into the bathroom or something).

When Emi randomly suggests unprotected anal he legitimately just shrugs and goes "why not?" And that's just on the good routes, not including the Shizune bad ending where he nails Misha on a whim just because she's given him the opportunity; in that scene Hisao is even more emotionally inconsiderate (when he fucks Rika he's only hurting himself, if anyone, as opposed to cheating on Shizune) and is provoked into the sex with much less than what Rika throws at him (even in Chapter 2 here, Rika still bares herself and tells him to do her, making Misha's advances tame by comparison; and I still had him pause to consider the issue of a condom before Rika gives him the go-ahead, which he never did with Misha in-game).

The more I've thought about it the more I became convinced that thinking with his dick is one of Hisao's most consistent traits. I think there isn't a single case in the game of a girl offering him sex and him flatly rejecting it (he can choose to reject Misha, but he can also choose to do her), even though again, there are serious reasons to hold off in every single route. It's actually why I ended up having him sleep with Miki after Rika gets pissed at him, I decided that he would absolutely have drunk sex that he probably shouldn't simply because there's a hot girl and he can.

As for how it'll end.... I've still not totally made up my mind on that myself. We'll see! Thanks again for your insightful comments.

I'll just respond to that response by saying that I hadn't considered that angle at all, and I certainly should have. Having now considered it, I'd be inclined to agree with your observation that it could be considered a trait of Hisao's.

Hanako Fancopter requested a more detailed and in depth view on my opinions on this piece, so here it is. Considering he said he knew I wasn't going to like it from the beginning, I have no idea why he wants this, but it's not going to hurt me to play along.

While you talked about doing an edgy Rika story, I'm still not sure of your actual intentions here. Where you just trying to do your own version of an edgy Rika or did you set out to write an even more edgy Rika than the previous story? If you were going for a more edgy version you certainly managed it. As bad as the previous Rika was, she still showed some good qualities and at least tried to have something that resembled a relationship. This Rika just seems to be pure bad qualities with no redeeming value. There's no real hook to her for me to enjoy as a reader, or any reason to believe Hisao would want to spend time with her.

Right from the start, Hisao feels off. Before we even find out Rika's name (in story) he has referred to "kenji bullshit" which seems unnecessarily harsh and vulgar for the character. It's soon followed by

it’s obvious that she wants me. Wants my attention for something or other, that is.

You're writing no-route still bitter and lost Hisao and that just screams I'm sexy and I know it *wink at the audience* Hisao. Now after this Hisao is talking with Rika and he makes it obvious that he doesn't want anything to do with her, but his reply to her is a joke, which further sends mixed message about what exactly what his mindset is. Again this is followed by "sexy and I know it Hisao" commenting

I seem to have the world’s most envious curse—girls simply just won’t leave me the hell alone.

and then

“Umm, what? Girls… falling over me? Since when?” I ask, genuinely confused.

I have no idea what kind of characterization you're even going for with Hisao at this point. I'm not sure Hisao knows either.

Hisao then goes along with somebody he admits to not liking simply because he has nothing better to do. At this point, Rika does come off as some what interesting of a character in her talk with Hisao. Even in the theater the character admits to not liking Rika (with far more vulgarity than is usual for the character) and then ...

I’d probably be pissed at her if I didn’t want her so badly now.

Where does that even come from? It feels like you just went "well, she's the leading lady so Hisao has to be attracted to her," without giving us any reason why he would be. In fact, you've given us plenty of reasons why he wouldn't. Considering how much Hisao talks about how horrible she is and how much he doesn't like her, it would make more sense for him to walk out of the theater than it would for him to start making out with her.

This isn't a Hisao that thinks with his dick. This is a Hisao that doesn't think at all. and cusses a lot.
Two traits that are pretty much the opposite of Hisao.

You actually start to show signs of this after the sex scene where Rika talks to him about "earning his fuck." and Hisao's attitude actually feels somewhat kind the real Hisao for a moment. Rika's absolute control over him comes across as way to quick. Within the course of one chapter (a few hours of interaction maximum) she's already telling him who he can and can't associate with and Hisao is agreeing because he's "unable to deny my own desires."

Pretty much everytime Hisao thinks about her it's about how horrible a person she is, so why is he so quick to let her control him? I have a hard time believing that it's just because they had sex in public, (Which strikes me as something Hisao would object to much more even IF it was for somebody he had feelings for). The game itself shows time and time again that he's actually interested in a relationship not just casual sex. He's not that big into people just using him either.

The fact that he waited until day five to object to this seems a bit much as well, considering you even start the next chapter saying that he didn't know what to think. Hisao in the game is all about over analyzing things. Actually for the most part, Hisao does feel like himsel for much of the beginning of chapter two. It's a harsher more bitter version of himself, but it's there. i'd say it's likely comparable to much of Act 1 or even lots of Rin's route.

I actually even like when Hisao goes to visit Rika in her room. It clearly shows Hisao as somebody what wants more from a relationship and is actually trying to figure out where they stand. And Rika does nothing but make fun of Hisao and insult him... so he gets angry and has sex.

This is where I stopped reading it before and I have no desire to read it any further. There is nothing to like about Rika. You haven't given her a single good redeeming quality so far in this story. The worst part about this story to this point is that Hisao knows this. He has nothign good to say about her at any point except "sex is good." I mean, she's a horrible bitch, but sex is good. it's not a good hook for a relationship. It's an even worse one for a story.

It just feels like Hisao's actual character is in there trying to get out, but for whatever reason he literally is unable to object to anything Rika wants.

You objected to it the last time when I said you don't understand Hisao and right here...

Yeah I won't really try to mount much defense for Hisao--I'm not sure what his personality is "supposed" to be outside of being a loser who lucks his way into getting laid.

You say it again here.

That's what I'm saying, you're complaining that he's not "in character," but I have no idea what he is "supposed" to be in this sense aside from a boring audience stand-in, so I deliberately choose to write him in a way that I prefer instead.

You admit to not knowing who the character is so you're making up something different.

So why you were upset about me telling you your Hisao is a horrible take on the character, I simply don't understand.

If you're trying to do a serious story why would you even want to make up a completely new personality for a character? I would think that if somebody was trying to write a Hisao and Rika relationship that you would actually want to try to write Hisao and not just generic "whatever I feel like."

Even the thing you know about Hisao's character are horrible off base.

As far as being a dumbass, he is no better or worse than any of the other character in the game. A "loser" is a matter of opinion, I don't see at any point in the game that it ever paints him as a loser. He's smart, fairly likable, good in social situations, tries his best to help people, and talented in a variety of ways. Which part of that makes him a loser?

And lucks his way into getting laid?
Hardly. The guy works damned hard for his relationships. In many cases he's befriending people that doesn't actually have any other friends. He actually has to be able to learn another language for Shizune and keep up with her, befriends a girl that literally runs away fro people trying to talk to her, and just to even put up with Rin would require the patience of a saint.

A sensible Hisao would stop seeing Rika after that first "date" and that would be the end of it, you're right about that.

Here you're telling me your version of Hisao doesn't have any sense (and is "lucky" enough to get laid.) At this point you're giving me a story with a protagonist that's stupid, who's actions don't match with his thoughts, and a female lead that's just a straight up horrible person. I usually tend to avoid stories without any likable characters.

You want tips on writing Hisao, okay. First off you have to get rid of the idea that he's just some dumbass that gets laid. Right there you're starting off in a manner that disrespects the character you're trying to write. He's your lead character. Show the guy some respect. Do not think of his as an audience stand in. It's a cheap and easy way to dismiss the character.

--Or in a place where someone might walk in on them who they'd really rather not (Shizune at her dad's house/Lilly on the living room floor with Hanako in the same house; he couldn't even be bothered to move into the bathroom or something).

His scene with Lilly is in the bathroom. As for Shizune, she's really the one that initiates the sex. In fact, it's usually the girl's that do. I can't think of one instance where Hisao is the one that makes the first move. He's often even a bit reluctant go go along with what they have in mind of where it's at.

When Emi randomly suggests unprotected anal he legitimately just shrugs and goes "why not?"

The anal was due to lack of protection. They do discuss this.

The more I've thought about it the more I became convinced that thinking with his dick is one of Hisao's most consistent traits. I think there isn't a single case in the game of a girl offering him sex and him flatly rejecting it (he can choose to reject Misha, but he can also choose to do her), even though again, there are serious reasons to hold off in every single route. It's actually why I ended up having him sleep with Miki after Rika gets pissed at him, I decided that he would absolutely have drunk sex that he probably shouldn't simply because there's a hot girl and he can.

Funny, the game itself has Hisao reject a girl when she's drunk. Hanako is flirting with him like crazy in her route after she gets drunk and he shuts her down because it wouldn't be right to take advantage of her and he isn't sure what their relationship even is at that point.

There's a couple of times where he turns down Rin. One of which is because he's mad at her. Honestly, a lot of Rin's route does a good job at showing a more bitter Hisao in a relationship. He's still trying to help, but he won't let her just use him. You push him enough, he will push back. To a lesser extent it shows up in Emi's route. Of course, Rin and Emi actually have some good qualities, even qualities he admires.

That's actually one of Hisao's traits. He does try to copy some of the better characteristics of those around him, but he never let's it stop him from being his own person. if somebody has their life together, he seems no problem in following them (Lilly, Shizune, to a lesser extent Emi) leading, he's a little bit less good at (Hanako and Rin).

Granted, I gave up early on the story, but from what I did see, I think what you're most missing from the story is any kind of reason for Hisao to like Rika. Does she say anything that helps him get him handle his own troubles? Is there anything that she's good at?

I'd also really suggest toning down the swearing.

At this point though, I've really given more thought into a story that I don't particularly care about than I've meant to. If you have any specific questions I could answer them, but really I feel like I'm done with this one.

I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh. I really don't think you're that bad of a writer. Not everything you writer is to my taste and sometimes I feel you try to take shortcuts in places rather than thinking them out, but you do have a certain amount of talent to you.

HanakoFancopter wrote:Mirage's boils down to "didn't like it, stopped reading," which--while still delivered with his trademark harshness--is a completely fair remark, as no one is obligated to enjoy a story, regardless of its content or style.

I'd prefer "honest" but I guess harsh is justified in this case...

Oddball wrote:Lots of stuff.

Since I did not read more than the first two chapters I kept my comments short in my first post...
But as Oddballs review also covers only those first two chapters let me say that I completely agree with every point he makes about those chapters - and my respect for putting it into words so eloquently!

Oh man another detailed review on the same day--once again thanks for your insight. Even if it's much more negative than Feurox's!

Where does that even come from? It feels like you just went "well, she's the leading lady so Hisao has to be attracted to her," without giving us any reason why he would be. In fact, you've given us plenty of reasons why he wouldn't. Considering how much Hisao talks about how horrible she is and how much he doesn't like her, it would make more sense for him to walk out of the theater than it would for him to start making out with her.

Well, the idea was that it comes from him being a teenage boy with a matching libido, i.e. willing to put up with a lot of shit if it gets him sex. I believe that to be a fairly reasonable train of events, though I should have probably made it more clear/devoted more effort to establishing that tension ("this girl is making me uneasy" vs "she's hot and sexually available", which again, is a completely real trade-off that men might face IRL).

Your criticism focuses heavily on the first chapter and I agree with it to a large extent. There is some contradicting characterization of Hisao in there. I think where I went wrong is that I wrote that first chapter as a Discord meme, then expanded it into this story without going back and revising that first chapter to better fit the longer story that I had in mind. It makes for a weak start and it's tough to win someone over from there.

You want tips on writing Hisao, okay. First off you have to get rid of the idea that he's just some dumbass that gets laid. Right there you're starting off in a manner that disrespects the character you're trying to write. He's your lead character. Show the guy some respect. Do not think of his as an audience stand in. It's a cheap and easy way to dismiss the character.

The Hisao that I had in mind was a guy who is still fairly fresh off his hospital stay, still feeling very depressed and alone after getting Kenji's route, and doesn't really know what to do with himself. Hence when Rika ambushes him he's very vulnerable and easily dragged along by her, then gets progressively stronger as the story goes on. While I think this is a viable interpretation for the character, I agree with you that I did not adequately set this up and sell it in the early parts of the story.

His scene with Lilly is in the bathroom. As for Shizune, she's really the one that initiates the sex. In fact, it's usually the girl's that do. I can't think of one instance where Hisao is the one that makes the first move. He's often even a bit reluctant go go along with what they have in mind of where it's at.

No, Lilly's first H scene has them bone on the living room floor. The second one is in the bathroom the next day.

That's right, the girl always initiates, and Hisao always goes along with it, even when again, there are obvious reasons not to. Shizune has sex with him that is both unprotected and in a situation where her aggressive sword-wielding father could easily discover them, which is riskier than what he does here on two fronts (the worst that happens in the theater is they just get kicked out)--and Hisao goes along with it. If there's a difference that makes it OOC, it's probably that here it happens so fast (on literally their first day of knowing each other), as opposed to the sex scenes in-game obviously coming after he and the girls have been talking for a while.

The anal was due to lack of protection. They do discuss this.

I legitimately forgot that detail. I maintain that "sure let's just do anal instead" doesn't exactly contradict my characterization of thinking with one's dick, though. I've been in that situation personally and most of my friends around that time also were, I don't know a single one of us who ever opted for "why not just do anal?!?!" over "ehh let's just wait until we have protection," even though we were all dumb horny teenagers.

I don't see how you can deny that Hisao at least makes some questionable decisions regarding sex. But if you legitimately think his judgment is sound in every route/path regarding sex then fair enough I guess. We have a fundamental disagreement on the character there.

Oddball wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:51 pm Hanako Fancopter requested a more detailed and in depth view on my opinions on this piece, so here it is. Considering he said he knew I wasn't going to like it from the beginning, I have no idea why he wants this, but it's not going to hurt me to play along.

If someone has criticisms that go beyond "it's not my thing" I want to hear what they are. If anything I'd say detailed feedback on what didn't work in a story is more valuable than detailed praise.

I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh. I really don't think you're that bad of a writer. Not everything you writer is to my taste and sometimes I feel you try to take shortcuts in places rather than thinking them out, but you do have a certain amount of talent to you.

Well I guess it's better than having no talent at all lol. Maybe someday I'll manage to write something you don't hate!

As far as shortcuts go I think the premise itself is a significant shortcut because I did deliberately set out to make an unlikable character here--so I didn't feel it was necessary to give Rika strong redeeming qualities or try to make her relatable or etc. I can see how that's a way of just copping out of what would otherwise present a significant challenge in the writing.

Your review comes off as very harsh but you actually laid out and clearly explained where you are coming from, so it doesn't bother me. Much the opposite I really appreciate it. It's been interesting to see the varying reactions to this story, from totally positive to totally negative, to different points in between.

Mirage_GSM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:54 am

HanakoFancopter wrote:Mirage's boils down to "didn't like it, stopped reading," which--while still delivered with his trademark harshness--is a completely fair remark, as no one is obligated to enjoy a story, regardless of its content or style.

I'd prefer "honest" but I guess harsh is justified in this case...

So you're saying I was too harsh in addressing your criticism?

I don't see how you can deny that Hisao at least makes some questionable decisions regarding sex. But if you legitimately think his judgment is sound in every route/path regarding sex then fair enough I guess.

He does, but so does every other single character in the game. I don't consider that a defining trait of any of them.

If there's a difference that makes it OOC, it's probably that here it happens so fast (on literally their first day of knowing each other), as opposed to the sex scenes in-game obviously coming after he and the girls have been talking for a while.

That strikes me as a really huge difference.

But Hisao is a teenager. I can go along with it happening once and him not knowing what to do about it. The fact that he keeps doing it is much harder to believe, especially as your story shows that Hisao doesn't actually like her and thinks she's nuts.

Oddball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:08 am

If there's a difference that makes it OOC, it's probably that here it happens so fast (on literally their first day of knowing each other), as opposed to the sex scenes in-game obviously coming after he and the girls have been talking for a while.

That strikes me as a really huge difference.

But Hisao is a teenager. I can go along with it happening once and him not knowing what to do about it. The fact that he keeps doing it is much harder to believe, especially as your story shows that Hisao doesn't actually like her and thinks she's nuts.

Hisao returning to Rika again and again even though he knows better, just for the sake of an orgasm, strikes me as all too believable. When I was a 17/18 year old hormone-driven boy I engaged in some very stupid behavior (couldn't really call it a relationship) with a woman who was not good for me, and I even knew it, but I kept returning to her because, well, y'know. Hormones. An irresistible siren-call that dragged me by my balls to repeated stupid behavior. Adult me looks back and just cringes.

Lap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:04 am

Oddball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:08 am

If there's a difference that makes it OOC, it's probably that here it happens so fast (on literally their first day of knowing each other), as opposed to the sex scenes in-game obviously coming after he and the girls have been talking for a while.

That strikes me as a really huge difference.

But Hisao is a teenager. I can go along with it happening once and him not knowing what to do about it. The fact that he keeps doing it is much harder to believe, especially as your story shows that Hisao doesn't actually like her and thinks she's nuts.

Hisao returning to Rika again and again even though he knows better, just for the sake of an orgasm, strikes me as all too believable. When I was a 17/18 year old hormone-driven boy I engaged in some very stupid behavior (couldn't really call it a relationship) with a woman who was not good for me, and I even knew it, but I kept returning to her because, well, y'know. Hormones. An irresistible siren-call that dragged me by my balls to repeated stupid behavior. Adult me looks back and just cringes.

Amen. I've known a Rika, perhaps not so intense, but not far removed. Good judgement isn't always easy.

Oddball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:08 am

I don't see how you can deny that Hisao at least makes some questionable decisions regarding sex. But if you legitimately think his judgment is sound in every route/path regarding sex then fair enough I guess.

He does, but so does every other single character in the game. I don't consider that a defining trait of any of them.

Of course the girls are complicit in the questionable behavior, yes. Their own lack of judgment isn't the point in question. That indiscretion regarding sex may not be a defining trait in a vacuum, but it's pretty relevant when we're specifically discussing sexual behavior and a story that is largely driven by it.

I don't think Oddball's criticism is about whether a teenage boy in general would put up with an otherwise unpleasant person for the sake of sex, but whether or not Hisao specifically would do it. Me and him seem to have fundamentally different understandings of the character--Oddball seems to have a largely positive perception of him as someone who takes care of himself and is overall rational in his behavior, whereas I pretty much have the opposite. I see Hisao as someone who is in very bad shape mentally and emotionally and is only able to put himself back together with help from one of the girls. To me, the person that Oddball describes exists only at the end of the game and only if he got a good ending.

You can see this in the fact that, if he fails with all the girls, Hisao decides to spend the festival with Kenji--someone who he also thinks is crazy and doesn't like, and who can't even offer him easy sex. That says to me that, whether he's honest with himself about it or not, deep down he is pretty desperate for companionship and ultimately willing to accept an undesirable companion over none at all. The game doesn't show us that Hisao goes on to have a normal and successful social life if he misses with the main girls, it shows him as still being dysfunctional and deeply depressed.

Well, rationality IS one of Hisao's defining characteristics in most routes - especially in Emi's and Rin's, but to a lesser degree also in Hanako's (in that one he even fails if he is TOO rational to consider Hanako's feelings) and Shizune's (and that one is the only one where the cause is the rationality of the girl rubbing off on him)... though he drops the ball a bit in Lilly's in my opinion...
To me at least there's a difference between hanging out with a guy you don't know all that well for a night on one hand and entering an abusive relationship on the other.

The game doesn't show us that Hisao goes on to have a normal and successful social life if he misses with the main girls, it shows him as still being dysfunctional and deeply depressed.

The game doesn't show us that Hisao goes on to have a normal and successful social life if he gets together with the main girls either, because it ENDS when it does.
If you reach a good end it ends on a high point, if you reach a bad end it ends on a low point, but in no ending is Hisao at a point where it could be justified to say he won't go on to have a normal and successful social life. (Disregarding the Kenji end of course, but that is only because of the accident not because of Hisao's mental state.)

The Kenji end involves Hisao rejecting any chance of normal social interaction in favor of spending time exclusively with the most dysfunctional person he has met and the one whom he seems to like the least, on the school roof away from anyone else, and swigging down whiskey while he's got a bad heart and is on 17 medications. Almost anything would have made more sense than that. He could have gone down to the festival and walked around, tried to find people he knows or meet new ones, or just sit in his room and read. Even hanging out with Kenji would make sense if he stayed sober and was just doing it because he finds Kenji funny/amusing, but that's not what happens at all. I mean, this is the opening narration of The Deep End:

"What am I going to do? I don't have any plans. In hindsight, that's really stupid. Maybe I should've asked a girl out? Then again, all things considered, I don't think I could've done anything like that. It's only my first week. A week that I have wasted being awkward around almost everyone, stumbling all over myself trying to get the hang of this place. Thinking about it, what have I accomplished? Who would I have even asked? Damn, it seems that Kenji is my only realistic option for a date today. This is the most depressing thing that has happened to me since I had a heart attack because a girl confessed her love to me. It can't be helped."

Hisao explicitly thinks to himself that he's not happy about hanging out with Kenji but feels that he has no choice due to his own social ineptitude. Why does this scene play out the way it does, if Hisao is some kind of responsible logic machine with no hint of depression or loneliness? Again, if that's really your interpretation of the character, we just have a fundamental disagreement. Or very very different definitions of "rational."

Okay, first of all, in the Kenji ending Hisao is not "rejecting" other social interaction. Kenij is the only one to ask, so he decides to spend the time with him instead of staying cooped up in his room, which is arguably the more sociable of two options.
Including the Meta, going around the festival looking to meet friends is not an option, because this is the bad end! You get to read it, because you made some bad choices, and there is no getting back from that. In other VNs you get eaten by a shark on the top floor of a hotel because you made a bad choice, but I do not take that as indication for the character's moral failings.
And do not twist the words in my mouth! Neither Oddball nor I ever said there was "no hint of depression or loneliness" in Hisao. There is not a human alive in whom you cannot find one hint of depression or loneliness, and if there were he would be in a mental institution. I'd say having those feelings from time to time is necessary to be a functional human being.
And are you really taking that quote seriously? That is obviously there to inform the reader that they have reached the bad ending.. ^^°
But even if you do - if you have to resort to the Kenji end to justify your characterization of Hisao's character while disregardding the other 99,55% of the VN then maybe it is no surprise that we have different interpretations of Hisao's character...

On a narrative level, Hisao is describing his instantaneous reflections when he thinks about the fact that he's spending an evening with Kenji.

On a metanarrative level, this signals you're out of choices, having decided to not make choices throughout.