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Mirage_GSM wrote:So... I've been discussing this with a few people via PM, and we thought it might be enlightening to get more opinions.

It's a bit tricky since even asking the question might be skewing the results, so I'm formulating the question as neutral as possible:

"When you read this story, did you get the feeling that Iwanako had any romantic feelings for Mai or vice versa?"

I know reading the question will make you go back through the story to look for any clues, so the second question would have to be:

"On rereading the story, did your opinion change and why?"

I will refrain from reproducing any contents of our private discussion for now, but we are all very curious about your answers.

I didn't get the feeling that Iwanako had any romantic feelings at all. She has romantic thoughts in general, but none that I can sense for Mai.

I had a very faint sense that Mai might plausibly have such feelings for Iwanako, but the evidence doesn't support it as far as I can tell.

Well, I've already had this discussion, but for sake of public knowledge and transparency, I'll reiterate that I didn't see Mai and Iwanako's relationship as anything beyond 'best friends forever', with more unusual behavior being instead attributed to Iwanako's emotional collapse, and subsequently Mai's frustration and guilt as a third party in the whole affair. As for Dev, most of the unusual behavior is attributed to lingering hostilities and personal growth independent of a relationship. On a second reading, I realized I'm apparently as bad at interpreting social cues as Shizune.

Blank Mage wrote:On a second reading, I realized I'm apparently as bad at interpreting social cues as Shizune.

It's not beyond belief that we are in the same boat or that I am worse off. One more re-reading has not changed my opinion... I suppose absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence.

I didn't get the sense that Iwanako and Mai's feelings for each other were anything but platonic.

Then again...

“Hey,” I say, turning to her. “Let me try that.”

Wordlessly, she passes over the bottle, and I take a delicate, but committed sip. The beverage is…odd. Sweet and unusually strong.

“Weird,” I say, handing back the bottle. “Not bad, but definitely weird.”

...they did sort of share an indirect kiss.

Mirage wrote:So... I've been discussing this with a few people via PM,

Leaty wrote:It also bears mentioning that I wrote a story here that was positively dripping with homoromantic subtext and literally nobody caught on without my walking them through it.

Well, since Leaty brought it up in the MTtB-thread, I'll explain.
Leaty contacted me regarding this story's entry in the library, remarking that it should contain the "Iwanako X Mai" tag - which surprised me because I didn't get that feeling at all, and the resulting discussion sprawled to include dewelar and blank mage. Leaty and dewelar both said they were concerned the shipping between those two was too obvious...
In the end we decided to poll the other readers, but feedback was a bit sparse.
So to summarize:
Blank Mage didn't notice any subtext, but recognized it after it being pointed out to him.
brythain didn't notice any shipping, whether on first readthrough or on second.
Valjean didn't notice any subtext except for the implied indirect kiss.
And I can't see anything more than best buddies even after lengthy discussion with both authors - and even though I DID notice the subtext in MTtB...

I kinda saw the potential of the relationship going beyond simple friendship. However, nothing in the story as written gave [me] an indication as to whether or not they would eventually be maids of honor at each other's weddings or would eventually have to find a maid of honor for their wedding.

I think it's sociocultural. Where I've grown up and lived, you seldom see such things as necessarily significant/symbolic of such. *shrugs* — perhaps my London filters might have worked better, except that I didn't think of putting those on for this milieu. Kind of how people behave with each other in Tashkent but if you were to hint you thought they were gay, they'd laugh at you for the joke and then beat you up if they thought you were serious.

Halo 5 refuses to download and unlock, and now we're back here again after what has been a very weird day. If I'm not careful this will become a habit.

I missed the existence of this little gem. I like it. Iwanako is more suited to here than there, I think. It's her setting. Mai's protective streak makes sense, given how she clearly feels (if I'm reading this right, it makes sense for what improved Iwanako so greatly in that other thing. You know, Developments). There's a consistency that I like here--this is the same person who, in a cosmic mix-up, was the one with the heart attack. Very good indeed. She's very much people in this (so is Mai, I should hasten to add). You've written a story with people.

Pity this is a one shot. These are such interesting people.

TheHivemind wrote:I missed the existence of this little gem. I like it.

Thank you for reading it! I'm glad your attention was finally alerted to it. I think it's some of my finest work, so I'm happy to see it paid off.

TheHivemind wrote:Iwanako is more suited to here than there, I think. It's her setting.

You know, I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right. This story is the closest thing there is, I think, to an "Iwanako-shaped hole."

TheHivemind wrote: Mai's protective streak makes sense, given how she clearly feels (if I'm reading this right, it makes sense for what improved Iwanako so greatly in that other thing. You know, Developments).

Hahahahahaha yes yes yes

I'm so glad someone finally managed to pick up on that thread! Dewelar and I worked very hard on it. But yes; by the ending of Developments, Mai and Iwanako are in a committed relationship. It's the ending—sort of—to a story that begins here. There was meant to be all sorts of crazy dramatic shit implied offscreen, because life doesn't stop happening just because the protagonist of the story moves away.

TheHivemind wrote:There's a consistency that I like here--this is the same person who, in a cosmic mix-up, was the one with the heart attack. Very good indeed. She's very much people in this (so is Mai, I should hasten to add). You've written a story with people.

Pity this is a one shot. These are such interesting people.

Thank you so much. I'm very proud of these characters, so it's utterly gratifying to see that people like them. The reception of Mai in particular really warms my heart. I doubt this is the last we'll see of these iterations of the characters (to say nothing of other iterations).

Mirage_GSM wrote:So... I've been discussing this with a few people via PM, and we thought it might be enlightening to get more opinions.

It's a bit tricky since even asking the question might be skewing the results, so I'm formulating the question as neutral as possible:

"When you read this story, did you get the feeling that Iwanako had any romantic feelings for Mai or vice versa?"

I know reading the question will make you go back through the story to look for any clues, so the second question would have to be:

"On rereading the story, did your opinion change and why?"

I will refrain from reproducing any contents of our private discussion for now, but we are all very curious about your answers.

To be honest, I never picked up on that - I picked up a BFF vibe, but not really a vibe that Mai was romantically interested in Iwanako, even on a re-reading of both this and Developments chapter 60 (although with Leaty's comments in the MTtB thread, I could see how it fits in with Developments chapter 60).

bhtooefr wrote:To be honest, I never picked up on that - I picked up a BFF vibe, but not really a vibe that Mai was romantically interested in Iwanako, even on a re-reading of both this and Developments chapter 60

Okay, this has driving me absolutely insane for a while now, so here is a transcript of a PM I sent out a while ago about the subtext we included in both stories, if anyone's curious.

Honestly, like—for some readers I just don't know how I could have possibly provided "the vibe" that Mai and Iwanako had romantic feelings without making it much more explicit (which would have defeated the point). Like what was I supposed to do, add a kiss? That wasn't what this story was about. Iwanako wasn't supposed to fully understand her feelings here, because she was still in pain over Hisao. I would have thought that the fact that Iwanako seemed much as much (or more) heartbroken over the prospect of losing Mai's friendship as her relationship with Hisao dissolving was telling, but for some people that wasn't, sooo...

And it's all the more vexing for me when you take into account that in Developments, Iwanako literally alludes to being in a relationship. Like, who did people think that could possibly have been? Some random, nameless schmuck? Do either of us work that way?

Like I don't know if it's sociocultural differences or what. I kind of think that if Mai and Iwanako were both male, nobody would have missed it, but that isn't the point. My working theory about people missing it is that everybody is looking at MTtB wrong—that they assume the eventual romantic pairing in that story will have to be enabled by some kind of transformative revelation that somehow tilts Iwanako's sexuality from heterosexual into bi/pansexual (or even just a lesbian), and that because Bantamweights doesn't feature such a magical event, it would be impossible that Iwanako could be even unwittingly interested in a girl during the events of the story. And that isn't how sexuality works? If Iwanako is bi/pan in MTtB I quite assure you she's bi/pan in BW, even if she doesn't know it.

Or maybe they're assuming that because Mai and Iwanako go way back, the Westermarck effect applies to their relationship? I don't know.

Leaty wrote:And it's all the more vexing for me when you take into account that in Developments, Iwanako literally alludes to being in a relationship.

And, in fact, alludes to it strongly enough that even Hisao gets an inkling of it, fer chrissakes!

Like, who did people think that could possibly have been? Some random, nameless schmuck? Do either of us work that way?

Eh, I do occasionally, because I don't like people to know which of my guns is going to be fired later (see: Narumi, Akinori, Miki's early cameo), but there was no reason for me to do it here.

Westermarck effect is honestly a good way to put it - it felt like they were just really close friends, that were close enough to talk like that with one another. And, to be honest... I had assumed a nameless schmuck even though both of you are quite good at world-building...

I agree it would've been less subtle if they were male, because of the sociocultural differences that you mentioned, but that wouldn't tell the story that you want to tell, obviously. And, I also think that you're right about what people are seeing in MTtB - while I need to reread MTtB from the beginning in this context, I was previously thinking that Iwanako had been operating under rather heteronormative thought patterns, and repressing any attraction to women (so, rather than "tilting from heterosexual", more admitting to herself that she's not... but my belief (prior to this, anyway) was that she may have never allowed herself come to that conclusion if it weren't for the events of MTtB scene four - actually, looking at the relevant bit, that's also where I really noticed heteronormative thought patterns) - basically, I guess I was thinking she was more heterosexual-leaning than she actually is?

Oh, and, I could see that her losing Mai would be extremely painful because Mai was effectively her emotional support, even if there weren't romantic feelings there.

And, with the context that's now been spelled out more clearly, I think it's quite clear how everything actually fits together, but even on a re-read, I found it rather subtle - "OK, this makes sense in that context, but it still doesn't scream that they're interested in one another" for whatever reason. Which is odd, considering the amount of subtext (nearly zero) that I pulled out of canon to come up with my headcanon of Hanako and Akira being mutually attracted, but not acting on it...

bhtooefr wrote:And, with the context that's now been spelled out more clearly, I think it's quite clear how everything actually fits together, but even on a re-read, I found it rather subtle - "OK, this makes sense in that context, but it still doesn't scream that they're interested in one another" for whatever reason. Which is odd, considering the amount of subtext (nearly zero) that I pulled out of canon to come up with my headcanon of Hanako and Akira being mutually attracted, but not acting on it...

Perhaps it's a case of being text blind. I once taught in a certain kind of institution where I learnt to spot these things happening IRL. But when I read them, it somehow doesn't trigger in my head the same kind of response. Or perhaps, having become accustomed to being a visual observer of human beings, I've somehow lost capacity to translate 'backwards' — I can see it and describe it but not have it described to me and conclude that it must be so. Or perhaps, the "I'll believe it when I see it" defensive mechanism that comes when you live in a gossipy, rumour-mongering environment for too long.

bhtooefr wrote:my belief (prior to this, anyway) was that she may have never allowed herself come to that conclusion if it weren't for the events of MTtB scene four - actually, looking at the relevant bit, that's also where I really noticed heteronormative thought patterns) - basically, I guess I was thinking she was more heterosexual-leaning than she actually is?

One thing I'll point out about the events of The Shallow End—there are non-heteronormative reasons a woman in Iwanako's position would learn about their limitations and think "Well, I can never have a relationship ever," even if theoretically they could have a normal relationship, so long as great cares were taken.

For example, a bisexual cis woman might want to start a family, which, in restrictive social environments (like Japan is generally understood to have), is something you can only easily do with a cis man. So it's not improbable that a woman who was eager to have a family of their own might only imagine themselves in a relationship with cis men, even if they were polysexual, because generally only a relationship with a cis man would enable that particular goal to be achieved.

Plus, like, even if the woman doesn't want that sort of thing for themselves, it's just easier to be in a relationship with men than it is with women—you've got 90% of men who are technically eligible versus 10% of women, of whom some are closeted/spoken for/invisible/whatever, and social pressures make it an uphill battle because homophobia is a thing.

So people shouldn't look at The Shallow End as a lamentation that she lost everything (because that obviously isn't true) so much as a lamentation that she lost the specific things she wanted.