Random KS Discussion

[Zarys]

Look on Hanako's route for a second and look at the girl herself. One, she isn't as weak as she is often portrayed in her route (remember, she's capable of making friends on her own in Lilly's route) and two, she doesn't want to be protected/babied. Hanako survived fire, death of her parents, getting ridiculed by her friends in her former school, and living everyday with a burn scar--if she is as weak as most people think she is, she'd be hanging on the ceiling in a dormitory somewhere way before KS took place. Hanako is a strong girl; she's just lacking self-esteem and confidence, which isn't even supported considering how much Lilly babied her most of the time.

Hisao's presence only serve as a catalyst in bringing out Hanako's lack of self-esteem and confidence, other than that it will eventually grow out on its own. Compare that to Emi's, I don't think she'll change anytime soon if Hisao never appeared in her life.


Also, note Lilly's story and the conflict she's facing. She's supposed to answer to her parents in Scotland, to which she--again--dodged and sent Akira instead to explain. That is far from solving a conflict that is hanging up in the air and just merely postponed it before she has to confront it--either with her going back to Scotland, or her parents flying to Japan and dragging her back. She might 'solved' her relationship issue with Hisao, but she's far from solving her own personal issue with her family--that will comeback and haunt her, I guarantee it.

Hanako : I still don't see the point, they seem to really love each other and would try try to don't be separated as musch as the others, and why a relationship would works only with somebody you have being changed ?* I don't think she will completly forgetten him and Hisao also, so the reunion scenario would still be applicable here. and I don't see why Hisao is a more a catalyst to Hanako than with Emi, no girls really needs Hisao to survive, it's a explicit aesop.

*Seriously, I don't see the point of your made up criteria, okay you have see in a movie and ? only "changing people" allow true love ? I don't agree at all, you don't loves someone by changing him, and it's a twisted conception of love to based love on mutual needing...

Lilly : Of course it's not a solution and she must clarify all after, but I don't see why she will go to study in Scotland ? more explain that she loves Hisao and will remains in Japan with him, it would be hard time but you have no true reasons to don't believe in her than believe in the love of Shizune for Hisao. (Her will to accomplish her projects without me doubt that long-term relationship as much as your argument for the others)


I don't see why these factors are more luckily to happens than Shizune leaving Hisao to accomplish her projects, of course they are the most spoken to the future but I think they are the less attached emotionnaly and the less to have THE WILL to remains together. (where Lilly and Hanako seems to be able to don't care about difficulties, notably social), and Shizune has the advantage to be more focuzed route about a true student year.


Personally, I don't see really any relationship more unlikely than the others, they are too different : I will say that Hanako and Lilly are the most likely as the will to stay together despite the difficulties, and Emi and Shizune the most likely to have the less difficulties after the graduation; but both finish somewhat equal.)

But a opinion is always depending of our view of the life : maybe you give more importance to the well socially and formal relationships, and believe not many much in love as a passion who is able to pass over the difficulties, unlike me that don't accord much importance to the "explicit and formal social forms" (these are only social constructs that do not prove any true love, like mariage) and give more importance to the sentiment, I don't think you can "build" a true love with social constructions and these kind of things.

Hanako and Lilly seems to me to be exeptional love with a real chance to behave well, where Emi and Shizune (especilally Shizune) seems to be more cold,
based on formal relations rather than the true feeling....I really don't like how Shizune loves Hisao, I don't have the impress that she loves him...and even with all the focuze about their future, I don't think that noting can be build from a lack of love, love isn't based on a simple mutual entente for fucking together, lives together and have childrens...Emi is more emotional but not much as Hanako (especially Hanako) and Lily.
And maybe it's not me who is too dumb to understand Shizune, but you who is too insensible to feel the love between Hanako and Hisao ?
The fact that Emi/Shizune and Hisao are quicly formaly boyfriends and girlfriends means nothing.

And if Shizune and Emi were really more lukily to works than the others, the moral would be terrible : "don't hang out with those are unable to makes formal relation because whatever you can feel for them, you have no future and you must seek for good-defined relationship and easy for the social norms ? (okay you can loves Emi or Shizune better but if it was canon, the message for those liked Hanako or Lilly, and even Rin better would be it.), it's much as bad said that the girsl cannot be loved because they are disabled...(Hanako and Rin suffers from a social discrimination as good as a discrimination because they are disabled)

[Zykes]

That's quite a sad subject to look upon, really. Just look back to your own post high-school experience and count how many friends from high school you still legitimately keep in touch (unless of course, you're going to the same university; even then, are you still in touch with them?). High school is just a small step in life until you meet new people in university, make new friends, etc.

Doing just that, I have to say that decades later, I am still in contact with at least 10% of all the people I knew in high school. We have reunions every five years; some of them I see roughly once a year, some I see more often than that. I married one. It all depends on what kind of person you are, and what accidents bring you together. There was this guy I hadn't seen for many years, and one day shortly after I moved house I found out he lives five minutes' walk away from me — and now he's become a colleague at work. If you have a large and diverse population, things happen.

I don't think I'm that exceptional; one of the few places where this kind of thing DOESN'T happen is North America, because of the distance between population centres. In other places in Europe and East Asia, where the population centres are closer, it happens a lot more often.

I think that the younger you are, and the longer those friendships last, they tend to stick. I have friends I've known seen Elementary School and Junior High school that I am still friends with, but not so much when it came to High school or college. I think getting older, the level of connection with people starts to lessen. I figure that you start accepting that with choices in life and distance, that those friendships grow apart, where something you've maintained for over 10 years might fit as an exception to that thought.

[Megumeru]

Doing just that, I have to say that decades later, I am still in contact with at least 10% of all the people I knew in high school. We have reunions every five years; some of them I see roughly once a year, some I see more often than that. I married one. It all depends on what kind of person you are, and what accidents bring you together. There was this guy I hadn't seen for many years, and one day shortly after I moved house I found out he lives five minutes' walk away from me — and now he's become a colleague at work. If you have a large and diverse population, things happen.

I don't think I'm that exceptional; one of the few places where this kind of thing DOESN'T happen is North America, because of the distance between population centres. In other places in Europe and East Asia, where the population centres are closer, it happens a lot more often.

It's about the same all across the world. It depends though; most of the people I know from high school whom I still keep in touch with is..probably around 5-10% less, and each year getting in touch with them gets lesser and lesser. Some move to America, others spread across the country to different universities. Of course by chance, you may find your old friend again, but these days, getting to properly 'meet' gets really difficult when you're looking for a job in-between studies and part-time work. From the original number graduates that I know of, people I still keep in touch with are countable by hand--pretty sad.

I'm in my 3rd year of university in Japan and--just like you said--if fate crosses paths then hey, who knows? Things may happen.

I think that the younger you are, and the longer those friendships last, they tend to stick. I have friends I've known seen Elementary School and Junior High school that I am still friends with, but not so much when it came to High school or college. I think getting older, the level of connection with people starts to lessen. I figure that you start accepting that with choices in life and distance, that those friendships grow apart, where something you've maintained for over 10 years might fit as an exception to that thought.

Even so, childhood friends can and may disappear one day if they move to another country. After that, keeping in touch is just hard.

Hanako : I still don't see the point, they seem to really love each other and would try try to don't be separated as musch as the others, and why a relationship would works only with somebody you have being changed ?* I don't think she will completly forgetten him and Hisao also, so the reunion scenario would still be applicable here. and I don't see why Hisao is a more a catalyst to Hanako than with Emi, no girls really needs Hisao to survive, it's a explicit aesop.

*Seriously, I don't see the point of your made up criteria, okay you have see in a movie and ? only "changing people" allow true love ? I don't agree at all, you don't loves someone by changing him, and it's a twisted conception of love to based love on mutual needing...

Told you jimmies are rustled.

I think you're missing what I'm trying to say (completely) and is mostly twisting words here and there--maybe it's my own barrier with secondary languages.

And let me clarify before proceeding with another wall of text:
'love' is a strong word and I don't use it often--no, I never dare to use it unless it really holds weight. From today's perspective, the attraction of two individuals towards one another can immediately be describe as 'love'; to me, that is not love, but simple attractions. The 'weight' of the meaning of 'love' is--apparently--lost with the modern age, and people these days just tosses them around for free like candy. These days, you can be in a relationship but not in love and yet you can declare it as 'love' (which is why I state earlier how the meaning of 'love' is lost). Does having a lot of sex with your partner equals love? I don't think so. There are stories and articles that shows how two people can remain in love without the constant need of sex, can you explain that? Words, even in its simplest form, holds a certain 'weight' and meaning--and I truly believe that.

Love isn't just about hugging, kissing, and spouting 'I love you I love you I love you' over and over again. It's more complex than that; but, if you want to keep it simple there's the 'cheap' version called 'puppy love' or something that you and I have experienced. Basically 'love' in its eros form, but leaning more towards venus--in layman's term, simple attraction. Emotional attachment is just one of them, but not all of them.

I can cover about the concept all day, but let's go to Hanako first and how I came to that conclusion, shall we?

I don't see why Hisao is a more a catalyst to Hanako than with Emi, no girls really needs Hisao to survive, it's a explicit aesop.

I didn't state that they wouldn't survive without Hisao--nor did I say that a relationship can only work when someone changed.

Let me re-quote previously:

There is always that one person in life that will leave such a lasting impression that changes you from 'A' to 'B' (in way of thinking, lifestyle, etc.)

Now, we look at Hanako again to which I re-quote:

One, she isn't as weak as she is often portrayed in her route (remember, she's capable of making friends on her own in Lilly's route) and two, she doesn't want to be protected/babied. Hanako survived fire, death of her parents, getting ridiculed by her friends in her former school, and living everyday with a burn scar--if she is as weak as most people think she is, she'd be hanging on the ceiling in a dormitory somewhere way before KS took place. Hanako is a strong girl; she's just lacking self-esteem and confidence, which isn't even supported considering how much Lilly babied her most of the time.

I might also add that she is surprisingly independent, not only seen from Lilly's route but also her decision to slowly approach Hisao on her own accord--again, this is barred by her lack of self-confidence and timidness. In Lilly's route, Hanako 'left' her shell on her own accord and joined the newspaper club--a sign that shows that she is capable of independence, partly also due to the fact since her usual friend is busy with Hisao and does not 'baby' her as much as she would to. Thus, even without Hisao's company, Hanako is capable in her own right to step out of her shell as long as she sees fit.

What about Emi?

Emi is different to Hanako, partly due to the fact that Emi had a previous boyfriend before Hisao. Even if he isn't stated, he is implied in ACT II-ACT III of her route, I believe. What she does initially with Hisao is a repeat to what she did to her previous boyfriend when she's engaged in that certain issue. If Hisao didn't made the 'move' on her route (I'm talking about the 'forgiveness' on the track or the confrontation with her, if we avoid the scene mentioned before), Emi and Hisao's relationship ended and she'll repeat the cycle again with her next boyfriend.

Hanako is capable of going out of her shell on her own accord, even without Hisao's intervention. Emi isn't so lucky and would dwell on the issue until someone has the balls and tolerance to confront her, in which Hisao is that person who does.
Thus, Hisao's presence in Hanako's route serves as the catalyst that boosts her self-esteem and confidence--the ending scene, where they kiss in public (which is a bold move in Japan) is an indication of her attaining that confidence. While in Emi's route, Hisao is a central force that shaken and move Emi's stubbornness from keeping all the problem to herself and run away from it to accepting it (graveyard scene).

Without Hisao, Hanako can still go out of her shell (evident in Lilly's route). Without Hisao, Emi will remain the way she is. If someone changes your life--especially for the better--you would always remember them, no matter how far you're separated.
In a much weirder analogy, are you more likely to remember for a semester the person who does your homework for a day (or one you cheat from), or are you going to remember the person who teach you how to do the homework for a day?


As stated, Hanako is strong and independent. I can see her and imagine that, during graduation, she may be the one who will go up to Hisao to say her goodbyes when they take their separate ways in university. Hisao might resist and they may keep in touch, but considering how long they knew each other (and how fast it actually is) made me feel that Hanako and Hisao's relationship is more or less just puppy love, your typical 'high school love-life' that come and go. They share the same 'pain', so what? One aspect about a complete relationship is how one side supports the other, both good and bad, just as how Hisao tells Emi 'hey! It's not right to carry that baggage on your own!' despite her own stubbornness and resistance.

And as dewelar said,

he final scene in their route is really the beginning of their relationship -- so it's hard to judge

That is as much information as we get. Whether this puppy love blooms into something else is up to speculation--though in my own experience, after all the 'emotions' settle down things will just take a slow step down; especially if both of you are in two different universities.


Now I'll have a field day with this one:

Lilly : Of course it's not a solution and she must clarify all after, but I don't see why she will go to study in Scotland ? more explain that she loves Hisao and will remains in Japan with him, it would be hard time but you have no true reasons to don't believe in her than believe in the love of Shizune for Hisao. (Her will to accomplish her projects without me doubt that long-term relationship as much as your argument for the others)

I didn't say she'll study in Scotland. I'll re-quote:

note Lilly's story and the conflict she's facing. She's supposed to answer to her parents in Scotland, to which she--again--dodged and sent Akira instead to explain. That is far from solving a conflict that is hanging up in the air and just merely postponed it before she has to confront it--either with her going back to Scotland, or her parents flying to Japan and dragging her back. She might 'solved' her relationship issue with Hisao, but she's far from solving her own personal issue with her family--that will comeback and haunt her, I guarantee it.

Even if she refuses to return to Scotland and confront her problems, one way or another she will have to meet her parents as-per request. She dodge the bullet once, sent Akira to cover for her, but that will only delay the inevitable and if she doesn't want to go to Scotland, I'll bet her parents will go to Japan and drag her to confront them instead.
Now imagine you're Lilly's parents, arrived in Japan to settle a problem with your blind daughter only to find that she decides to stay in Japan because she's in a relationship with a boy that you don't even know exist, you think you'll approve that? Be honest--I know I won't.

The problem isn't about Lilly loving Hisao vice versa, but whether or not Lilly is willing to face the inevitable to continue her life. I know she would, but considering the history prior to 'that day' (where she confronts her parents) and her reason of staying and not meeting her parents, I doubt she'll remain in Japan whether she likes it or not.


now on a personal jimmy-rustle-slapping...

I don't see why these factors are more luckily to happens than Shizune leaving Hisao to accomplish her projects, of course they are the most spoken to the future but I think they are the less attached emotionnaly and the less to have THE WILL to remains together.

Son, you missed a lot of details in Shizune's route and the core of Shizune and Hisao's relationship.

Why do I like her route in the first place?
You see, it's not just about reading into the text--it's also about reading into a character who tries to communicate with you between communication barriers and figure out what she's trying to say or imply. Simply put, Shizuists doesn't like spoon-fed feels--we like to hunt for them on our own

and lastly:

And maybe it's not me who is too dumb to understand Shizune, but you who is too insensible to feel the love between Hanako and Hisao ?

I see that more as a personal attack, but I rather not pull a 'red' card that will rustle the jimmies of most people who will feel they're part of it, so I refrain from replying to that.

[SpunkySix]

Hold on, can somebody tl;dr this? I'm having a hard time following.

[Oscar Wildecat]

Hold on, can somebody tl;dr this? I'm having a hard time following.

I think he's saying that all the girls relationships except Shizunes are doomed to eventual failure.

EDIT: vvvv That too. vvvv

[Broomhead]

TL;DR

boromir-argument-internet.jpg (56.27 KiB) Viewed 3815 times

People are arguing over bestgirl and how long the relationship would last afterwards, and it looks like we fell into Shizune's pit of "She has such deep meaning" again.

[Megumeru]

Hold on, can somebody tl;dr this? I'm having a hard time following.

I think he's saying that all the girls relationships except Shizunes are doomed to eventual failure.

Close, not quite.

Emi and Shizune's. Those are the only two I pretty much can see lasting miles ahead. The rest are mostly, doomed to eventual failure.

[Zarys]

TL;DR
People are arguing over bestgirl and how long the relationship would last afterwards, and it looks like we fell into Shizune's pit of "She has such deep meaning" again.

Uh ? it's not realy the thing, where this argument is used by Megumeru ?
Megumeru : My last word was a joke (thus the ) but amazing work, I will answer later (I begin to see your point but I'm not okay with how you use it)
You know, it's not a competition, i hope you're not fallacious for "win". (after all, it's a question of tastes, you cannot objectively says who is the "best" and I think the five are goods)

[Megumeru]

Uh ? it's not realy the thing, where this argument is used by Megumeru ?
Megumeru : My last word was a joke (thus the ) but amazing work, I will answer later (I begin to see your point but I'm not okay with how you use it)
You know, it's not a competition, i hope you're not fallacious for "win". (after all, it's a question of tastes, you cannot objectively says who is the "best" and I think the five are goods)

It's not a competition and in the end hey, it's all tastes.

I did my research, mostly
This should fall in the 'you have been playing too much KS' :/

[Oscar Wildecat]

Emi and Shizune's. Those are the only two I pretty much can see lasting miles ahead. The rest are mostly, doomed to eventual failure.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Given that I've seen a number of relationships that have started in high school that have lasted decades, as well as relationships that have fallen by the wayside for various reasons, the only thing that Real Life (patent pending) tells me is that things can go either way. So, I tend to fall back on the general principle that each good ending represents the start of some sort of stable long term relationship.

So for me, each girl gets her happy ending ... right up until the catgirl apocalypse.

[Zarys]

Emi and Shizune's. Those are the only two I pretty much can see lasting miles ahead. The rest are mostly, doomed to eventual failure.

Emi and Shizune aren't 100% safe also..so it's the same for everyone ? and why you call yourself "winner" when I don't have said that I agree with you.
(I confess that you was awesome, and if only subconsciously you know how to write to hurt, but I still don't agree and I have seen some flaws)

[ParagonTerminus]

Emi and Shizune's. Those are the only two I pretty much can see lasting miles ahead. The rest are mostly, doomed to eventual failure.

Emi and Shizune aren't 100% safe also..so it's the same for everyone ? and why you call yourself "winner" when I don't have said that I agree with you.

Because everyone knows opinion = fact, stoopid.

[Zarys]

I don't want to win, just that I don't still agree with him but I find interresting what he said. (Even if a objective truth about it don't exist, I think we'll stop when it will become a question based on our divergent interpretations of the characters and neither of us will be no longer able to prove that he is more right than the other)

[bhtooefr]

I don't think Hisao and Shizune will even last more than a couple months or so into university. What with nailing Hanako behind Shizune's back, even concurrent with act 4, and all.

(OK, OK, OK, that isn't ACTUALLY my headcanon, because it's dependent on Lilly leaving permanently for Scotland during Shizune's route, and that clearly doesn't happen. But, Hisao does have quite a bit of interest in Hanako during Shizune's act 3...)

[azumeow]

I don't think Hisao and Shizune will even last more than a couple months or so into university. What with nailing Hanako behind Shizune's back, even concurrent with act 4, and all.

(OK, OK, OK, that isn't ACTUALLY my headcanon, because it's dependent on Lilly leaving permanently for Scotland during Shizune's route, and that clearly doesn't happen. But, Hisao does have quite a bit of interest in Hanako during Shizune's act 3...)

That...that last bit there. I don't remember that O.o When does that happen? I are confus...