Katawa Shoujo Forums

I get how I'm bad at words so the bulk of what I said probably sounded completely retarded, but you have to admit that her view of friendship is pretty fucked up.

Obviously they don't have any room for development within the arc, but they have at least a modicum of depth to each of them.

Any depth they may have has been completley overshadowed by how over the top the characters are made out to be.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:Alright, now this post is so completely outside the realm of rational interpretation that I'm forced to assume that the Doctor is simply trolling.

Good call. Pickman is too. Luckily I just found the "ignore" option in the user control panel and I don't have to worry about reading their nonsense anymore

I love the ignore tab, it's a great earplug for people who don't want to see contrasting opinions. Also, it's great that you're basically telling other people to block Pickman and I. The less people who can hear things you don't want to, the better, right?

Dr. Robotnik wrote:I get how I'm bad at words so the bulk of what I said probably sounded completely retarded, but you have to admit that her view of friendship is pretty fucked up.

Alright, I apologize for coming on a bit too aggressively. But I really do think that that particular interpretation of their relationship (tool-user or pet-master) is absolutely preposterous. I'll be the first to acknowledge that their relationship is unique (or fucked up, or however you want to call it), but they definitely share a genuine bond that rivals that of Lilly and Hanako.

For one, it's established in Look Ahead/Look Aside that Shizune latched herself onto Misha pretty much the instant she discovered that she was talking sign language courses. However, once she found out that Misha knew barely any sign language at that point, Shicchan still continues trying to reach out to her. If all she was looking for was a translator, why not have her father hire one? Money certainly isn't an issue, and Jigoro would likely acquiesce if his daughter were to ask, given the fact that he hired dozens of tutors to aid her during her childhood (even if that was all in vain). Shizune was looking for a companion, not a tool.

Furthermore, if their relationship is as you suggest, why in Act 4 does Shizune go to such great lengths to cheer Misha up? Why is she so concerned when Misha begins to isolate herself towards the end of Act 3?

Oddball wrote:

M.S. wrote:Obviously they don't have any room for development within the arc, but they have at least a modicum of depth to each of them.

Any depth they may have has been completley overshadowed by how over the top the characters are made out to be.

Point taken.

Pickman's Model wrote:A friendship is never gonna be the same again after something like that. Never heard of a single instance where things worked out. Always ends up causing people way more pain than necessary.

So like I said, that's not really friendzoning so much as a nice way of saying go away. The zoned person can either get over it and stay or just leave, but if the offer is genuine then the first really is a possibility. And yes, it actually happens.

nemz wrote:No, I don't think Misha ever stopped having feelings for Shizune, and that's a problem... just look at what happens in the bad ending.

Newsflash: breakups do actually happen. It isn't the end of the world.

And if so, that's Misha's problem. Shizune was clear where things stood and it's up to her to decide how to deal with it.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:For one, it's established in Look Ahead/Look Aside that Shizune latched herself onto Misha pretty much the instant she discovered that she was talking sign language courses. However, once she found out that Misha knew barely any sign language at that point, Shicchan still continues trying to reach out to her.

Well, yeah, she's the only person her age in the school who she can even remotely communicate with, obviously she's going to try her hardest to make a connection. My point is that this is the only thing they built their relationship off of, which would explain why it evolved into something like a tool/user relationship.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:If all she was looking for was a translator, why not have her father hire one? Money certainly isn't an issue, and Jigoro would likely acquiesce if his daughter were to ask, given the fact that he hired dozens of tutors to aid her during her childhood (even if that was all in vain).

That was all for education, which seems to be the only thing he cares about, since sending her to Yamaku was the only thing he ever did to help her with her disability.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:Shizune was looking for a companion, not a tool.

Yes. I never said that she intentionally established that relationship, my point was that it turned out that way because Shizune is a bad friend.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:Furthermore, if their relationship is as you suggest, why in Act 4 does Shizune go to such great lengths to cheer Misha up? Why is she so concerned when Misha begins to isolate herself towards the end of Act 3?

Because she kinda realizes that she fucked up and wants to help. This would've been a perfectly acceptable and extremely welcome turning point for the character if she A. handled the situation in a way that wasn't a hostile attack, and B. if she didn't go back to the way it was immediately afterword.

Alright, I apologize for coming on a bit too aggressively. But I really do think that that particular interpretation of their relationship (tool-user or pet-master) is absolutely preposterous. I'll be the first to acknowledge that their relationship is unique (or fucked up, or however you want to call it), but they definitely share a genuine bond that rivals that of Lilly and Hanako.

Shizune definitely has interesting views on friendship. From her point of view, I'd say she assumes that BECAUSE they are friends, she can use Misha's talents however she wants, and of course Misha wants to do anything she can to make Shizune happy.

Now as for the comparison between them and Lilly and Hanako, I've been thinking about that a bit and really, I think Misha is actually the "Lilly" in their relationship. Lilly and Misha are the fully functional individuals out of their groups. They're the ones that understand people and assist their companions in interacting with them. They both put up a bit of a false persona (although it's far more obvious in Misha's case.) I think the difference is that while Lilly leads Hanako at her own pace, Misha is dragged along at Shizune's pace, although there are quite a few times that Misha seems to try to reign Shizune in, not translating certain things or softening her words, or things to that affect.

For one, it's established in Look Ahead/Look Aside that Shizune latched herself onto Misha pretty much the instant she discovered that she was talking sign language courses. However, once she found out that Misha knew barely any sign language at that point, Shicchan still continues trying to reach out to her. If all she was looking for was a translator, why not have her father hire one? Money certainly isn't an issue, and Jigoro would likely acquiesce if his daughter were to ask, given the fact that he hired dozens of tutors to aid her during her childhood (even if that was all in vain). Shizune was looking for a companion, not a tool.

I'm not sure her father would hire one for her. Ever.

Her latching on to Misha is also apart of Shizune's character. She always tries to push people to be better. The problem is, she doesn't seem to know when to stop pushing or that not everybody wants to change. She pushed the student council until it broke, nearly does the same to Misha, and shows signs of treating Hanako the same way. While on the other hand, Lilly is one of the few people that refuse to budge when pushed and she just can't wrap her head around that mindset.

@nemz

Again, I'm saying that I have personally never seen something like that work out. Creates an awkward tension, plus I doubt strong feelings simply fade away. To address your other point: Misha had been feeling suicidal, and was clearly extremely depressed, to the point where she became desperate and ended up (in the bad ending) sleeping with Hisao. Sure, it's mainly Misha's own problem, but Shizune could definitely have been a better friend. If she had been a good friend, she would've seen through Misha's bouncy facade and realised that something was off.

I don't actually hate Shizune; I just don't necessarily like how she was handled. Not saying she should've had a cliché "HAPPY ENDING, EVERYBODY!" (not that I minded) like Lilly, but her "good" ending just left me with a feeling of "meh..."

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Yes. I never said that she intentionally established that relationship, my point was that it turned out that way because Shizune is a bad friend.

Actually, what you originally stated was that you "doubted that Shizune ever considered Misha as a friend." That statement was the main reason I jumped on you like that. In any case, it's pretty indubitable that Shizune was to some degree a bad friend to Misha.

Oddball wrote:Her latching on to Misha is also apart of Shizune's character. She always tries to push people to be better. The problem is, she doesn't seem to know when to stop pushing or that not everybody wants to change. She pushed the student council until it broke, nearly does the same to Misha, and shows signs of treating Hanako the same way.

It's also occurred to me that it might be possible that Shizune did the same with Misha as she did with Hisao. At the end of Act 3 it's implied that when Misha first came to Yamaku she was in a state of melancholia similar to Hicchan's. I don't think it's out of the question that Shizune attempted to pull her out of her depression in the same way she does with Hisao in Act 1.

Look Ahead/Look Aside wrote:Misha: I didn't really want to come to this school, Hicchan~. But it sounded interesting, and even if everyone hated me, at least it felt like they would leave me alone. I was learning sign language, but wasn't very good at it~.

Pickman's Model wrote:Again, I'm saying that I have personally never seen something like that work out. Creates an awkward tension, plus I doubt strong feelings simply fade away.

Then it's quite likely you and all your friends are just dicks.
The zoner made an offer, take it or leave it. It's only awkward until the zonee gets over it or decides to move on.
Typically a zoning happens LONG before anything I'd describe as 'strong feelings' develops. Infatuation goes away pretty fast after it's been denied unless you're a total creeper.

To address your other point: Misha had been feeling suicidal, and was clearly extremely depressed

Yeah, now that it's being thrown in her face. It's impossible to know how she was before Hisao got involved.

If she had been a good friend, she would've seen through Misha's bouncy facade and realised that something was off.

Being a good friend =/= mind reading

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Yes. I never said that she intentionally established that relationship, my point was that it turned out that way because Shizune is a bad friend.

Actually, what you originally stated was that you "doubted that Shizune ever considered Misha as a friend." That statement was the main reason I jumped on you like that. In any case, it's pretty indubitable that Shizune was to some degree a bad friend to Misha.

Oh. I never intended to say it, which is why I edited it. I also said that it wasn't her intention in the same post, which I guess is why it sounded like a troll.

Pickman's Model wrote:Sure, it's mainly Misha's own problem, but Shizune could definitely have been a better friend. If she had been a good friend, she would've seen through Misha's bouncy facade and realised that something was off.

And then done what? There's very little she could do once she made her lack of romantic interest clear to Misha, that wouldn't be taken the wrong way (as actual interest). It's MIsha's problem, she knows the score and if she can't let go of it, that's down to her.

It's entirely possible to be friend zoned by someone (or indeed break up with them) and remain friends with them and watch them date other people. Hell, it should be considered normal to accept that they're not interested in you. Again, this is completely down to Misha not accepting it.

If Shizune was leading Misha along and giving them mixed messages (I've had that done to me too by someone I've broken up with) then I could understand Misha's distress.

nemz wrote:Then it's quite likely you and all your friends are just dicks.
The zoner made an offer, take it or leave it. It's only awkward until the zonee gets over it or decides to move on.
Typically a zoning happens LONG before anything I'd describe as 'strong feelings' develops. Infatuation goes away pretty fast after it's been denied unless you're a total creeper.

nemz wrote:Being a good friend =/= mind reading

I like how you suggest that my friends and I are dicks for wanting to avoid awkward friendships (sure, some might be able to get over something like that, but I've never seen it work out), and then go on to say that being able to "read" another person's mood, etc equals possessing supernatural powers. I'm going to wager that Shizune simply didn't care, or pay any attention, due to her personality. Personally, I think that makes her a bad friend, but you're entitled to your opinion.

metalangel wrote:And then done what? There's very little she could do once she made her lack of romantic interest clear to Misha, that wouldn't be taken the wrong way (as actual interest). It's MIsha's problem, she knows the score and if she can't let go of it, that's down to her.

...

If Shizune was leading Misha along and giving them mixed messages (I've had that done to me too by someone I've broken up with) then I could understand Misha's distress.

I think it's fairly apparent from Look Ahead and Look Aside that Shizune's rejection was (or at the very least came across to Misha as) very blunt and harshly-worded, which would, I think, be in line with her character and personality (remember, Hicchan recognizes Shicchan as someone who thinks in the present, unaware of the long-term consequences of her actions, especially when it comes to their effects on other people). Also, call me crazy, but I think that to sustain a friendship following that kind of rejection, a bit more communication would be necessary than a simple "No, not interested." And again, it's very likely that Misha had come to terms with it, until Hisao's presence reminded her of their past. Although I'd agree that Shizune stringing Misha along hardly seems plausible.