Katawa Shoujo Forums

Damn it. I feel like a total idiot for being unable to analyze a cripple porn VN. I'm absolutely serious about this. Rin's route may be called Cerebral, but Shizune's route truly forces you to think to extract full enjoyment out of it. Like all good pieces of great literature.

Sorry Anonymous22 for always saying that Shizune's route was the least good route. I shall genuflect in your greatness.

We've talked about how Shizune likes being in charge.

It has just occurred to me: her route has only one option and it doesn't directly involve her.

Heh heh.

erisi236 wrote:It actually kind of pained me that I didn't like her arc. After the demo she was like "my girl" and I was all hyped up to get her.

Then I played the full version and it practically felt like she didn't love me.

Yeah, this.

I have a theory: Shizune's not a tsundere, but people think she is, which is what throws them off. I think Shizune's a different archetype: Sunao-Cool (Honest-Cool).

You might think of "su-cool" as the direct opposite of "tsundere." Tsundere is a character who feels very deeply but is dishonest about it: "I'm not doing this because I like you," being the stereotypical phrase. Su-Cool is a character who feels very deeply and expresses it honestly, but is in control.

For an opposite-sex example from the JJ Abrams Star Trek Movie: Spock and Uhura have this relationship. Spock is very much in love with Uhura, but maintains a Vulcan control over his emotions.

A quick checklist of Su-Cool traits taken from http://www.tsunamichannel.com/index.php?date=2005-12-07 :

* She never blushes (or shows expressions) even during the love confession.
* She expresses her love very straightforwardly (honestly).
* She is always cool and calm. Very unlikely for her to become emotional.
* She's not dependent on others.
* She is totally/madly in love you.

Shizune's an interesting type in that instead of being cool and calm, she maintains a veneer of aggressive competitiveness and playfulness which she uses to hide her emotions. Furthermore, she's a su-cool character who cannot communicate with her love interest directly, which causes problems in the second point.

Thoughts? Am I off-base?

We're still analyzing Shizune's route and still developing new ideas about her character.

A22 is GDLK

themocaw wrote:I have a theory: Shizune's not a tsundere, but people think she is, which is what throws them off. I think Shizune's a different archetype: Sunao-Cool (Honest-Cool).

You might think of "su-cool" as the direct opposite of "tsundere." Tsundere is a character who feels very deeply but is dishonest about it: "I'm not doing this because I like you," being the stereotypical phrase. Su-Cool is a character who feels very deeply and expresses it honestly, but is in control.

For an opposite-sex example from the JJ Abrams Star Trek Movie: Spock and Uhura have this relationship. Spock is very much in love with Uhura, but maintains a Vulcan control over his emotions.

A quick checklist of Su-Cool traits taken from http://www.tsunamichannel.com/index.php?date=2005-12-07 :

* She never blushes (or shows expressions) even during the love confession.
* She expresses her love very straightforwardly (honestly).
* She is always cool and calm. Very unlikely for her to become emotional.
* She's not dependent on others.
* She is totally/madly in love you.

Shizune's an interesting type in that instead of being cool and calm, she maintains a veneer of aggressive competitiveness and playfulness which she uses to hide her emotions. Furthermore, she's a su-cool character who cannot communicate with her love interest directly, which causes problems in the second point.

Thoughts? Am I off-base?

That's sounds exactly right. A heroine like that would naturally make for a love story where all the heroine's love is implied. For example, in the bad ending, she doesn't break up with you because she finds out you cheated on her, she breaks up with you because she thinks that her personality is pushing you away. That just shows the magnitude of love she has for you in an absurdly subtle way.

Interesting stuff. After the fairly breezy, affectionate, lots-of-dates Emi path, Shizune can, in comparison, seem much like she's not actually into you.

It's just a different kind of relationship. Some girls you like more for physicalness, others for their company or mental stimulation. Shizune is the latter, not least of all because it's hard to be too physical when doing so stops you communicating.* Perhaps she'll become more affectionate as time goes on (she certainly becomes more so over the course of her story) but certainly there is a very strong mental connection with her, one she loves stimulating and one that she loves how Hisao stimulates too.

*that being said, there would be something to be said for the uniqueness of when a couple that uses sign language to deliberately just lie snuggled up and enjoy the moment together without saying a word.

AnotherGuest wrote:We're still analyzing Shizune's route and still developing new ideas about her character.

A22 is GDLK

This. I wasn't sure at first whether A22 was a genius writer or all this was one big happy accident, but nah, I think it's the former by this point. Out of all of the routes, Shizune's keeps coming back to me and many others in terms of making us think. I think even if she was hearing, though, she wouldn't be lovey-dovey like Lilly. It's hard to say what parts of her personality were formed or indirectly formed as a result of her deafness, but I'm fairly sure on that one.

There's a (BSL) deaf comedian called John Smith who even points out the whole deal surrounding sign language and how it can get in the way of intimate moments. No such thing as whispering sweet nothings when you're carrying your wife up the stairs unless you want to drop her.

geekahedron wrote:Let me just proffer another way of looking at it, how the choices you make in each arc contribute to the development of the story, the lesson you learn, and to reaching the desired outcome:

Lilly: learn to be yourself, don't just rely on her
Rin: learn to understand her, you don't have to change her
Hanako: love her for who she is, not from pity or condescension
Emi: give her the room she needs, but never give up
Shizune: don't cheat on her with her best friend

If you're trying to suggest that Shizune's route was lacking in this department, I have to seriously contest that opinion.

To say that the only thing gained is "don't cheat on her with her best friend" is just trivializing the whole thing. Yes, if you cheat on her then you will not get the good end. That is a single physical event that happens somewhere along the linearity of Shizune's route. But it is not the only event of significance. You might not get to choose how things turn out, but just because you've removed the element of choice does not mean important things can't happen.

Pl4t0 wrote: To say that the only thing gained is "don't cheat on her with her best friend" is just trivializing the whole thing. Yes, if you cheat on her then you will not get the good end. That is a single physical event that happens somewhere along the linearity of Shizune's route. But it is not the only event of significance. You might not get to choose how things turn out, but just because you've removed the element of choice does not mean important things can't happen.

I think Shizune's route is more of a study on the difficulty of balancing close friendships and romantic relationships. There are many people who suffer from this, and Shizune's route addresses that.

themocaw wrote:Thoughts? Am I off-base?

I'm not a fan of the character classification (it's apt, but I think all of the HS characters are complex enough that they don't fit into neat little boxes like that), but I think your analysis is spot on otherwise.

Guest wrote:This. I wasn't sure at first whether A22 was a genius writer or all this was one big happy accident, but nah, I think it's the former by this point. Out of all of the routes, Shizune's keeps coming back to me and many others in terms of making us think. I think even if she was hearing, though, she wouldn't be lovey-dovey like Lilly. It's hard to say what parts of her personality were formed or indirectly formed as a result of her deafness, but I'm fairly sure on that one.

I'm not sure I'd got so far as to call A22 a genius writer, but his/her work in KS is definitely underrated. Shizune's arc is rock solid if you take it one its merits rather than reader expectations.

Pl4t0 wrote:If you're trying to suggest that Shizune's route was lacking in this department, I have to seriously contest that opinion.

To say that the only thing gained is "don't cheat on her with her best friend" is just trivializing the whole thing. Yes, if you cheat on her then you will not get the good end. That is a single physical event that happens somewhere along the linearity of Shizune's route. But it is not the only event of significance. You might not get to choose how things turn out, but just because you've removed the element of choice does not mean important things can't happen.

Agreed. Really, the cheating was largely incidental; Hisao wonders if she might know what happened, but it's never confirmed. The real problem is that the cheating sent Misha on a downward spiral, exacerbating existing issues (nicely summarized by encrypted12345) such that Shizune couldn't salvage things. And since Hisao was in the middle of it, and didn't know how to reach her, she couldn't reach out to him or lean on him as things got worse and worse. This could easily have happened without the cheating, though; the real turning point in the route stems from the fact that Shizune could pull Misha back from the brink in one case and not the other, and everything else flowed from that.

But of course, no one wants to think the object of the lead character's affections makes decisions and such independently of his actions, so they conclude the cheating must be at fault. Makes it ironic that it's pretty much incidental apart from its effect on Misha.

Pl4t0 wrote:To say that the only thing gained is "don't cheat on her with her best friend" is just trivializing the whole thing. Yes, if you cheat on her then you will not get the good end. That is a single physical event that happens somewhere along the linearity of Shizune's route. But it is not the only event of significance. You might not get to choose how things turn out, but just because you've removed the element of choice does not mean important things can't happen.

I'm not saying it's bad story; i actually liked it quite a bit. What I am saying is that the removal of choice left me feeling less attached or invested to what was going on, and I suspect it was the same for others who were underwhelmed by this arc. Good story aside, it felt lacking because I was just reading it, as opposed to playing it.

themocaw wrote:I have a theory: Shizune's not a tsundere, but people think she is, which is what throws them off. I think Shizune's a different archetype: Sunao-Cool (Honest-Cool).

You might think of "su-cool" as the direct opposite of "tsundere." Tsundere is a character who feels very deeply but is dishonest about it: "I'm not doing this because I like you," being the stereotypical phrase. Su-Cool is a character who feels very deeply and expresses it honestly, but is in control.

For an opposite-sex example from the JJ Abrams Star Trek Movie: Spock and Uhura have this relationship. Spock is very much in love with Uhura, but maintains a Vulcan control over his emotions.

A quick checklist of Su-Cool traits taken from http://www.tsunamichannel.com/index.php?date=2005-12-07 :

* She never blushes (or shows expressions) even during the love confession.
* She expresses her love very straightforwardly (honestly).
* She is always cool and calm. Very unlikely for her to become emotional.
* She's not dependent on others.
* She is totally/madly in love you.

Shizune's an interesting type in that instead of being cool and calm, she maintains a veneer of aggressive competitiveness and playfulness which she uses to hide her emotions. Furthermore, she's a su-cool character who cannot communicate with her love interest directly, which causes problems in the second point.

Thoughts? Am I off-base?

Yes, I agree as well, there are many many points where Shizune, I think *does* express her feelings for Hisao. (Her Stand Against the Heavens moment in her Act One ending be the most obvious and for that matter, both of her H scenes, in fact she and Lilly are the only routes where there is nothing awkward about any of sex in them.). She by her very nature is a straightfoward and honest person, her problem is that with nearly everyone else around, she has to deal with a language barrier so alot of get lots in translation even when it does get through. Which may explain why she is so, direct about sex. Since she cannot tell Hisao who she feels about him with words that are in a matter that would be up to her standards. (Shizune does not do anything she can't do well) She has no choice but to say it with her body. This btw may be why I like the "Weekend and Hisao's" fic in the forum, but I digress.

Finished KS. And although Rin is my all-time favorite, I have to say that I really really enjoyed Shizune's path. I just considered this path as a novel, so I let the characters grow on me (Go Misha go!), and enjoyed the ride.

I didn't "play" it, but I didn't mind.

i enjoyed shizunes route as well even if it dident have a really good ending still made me sad to see them split off like that shizine and hisao are a great cupel and misha made everything funny