Katawa Shoujo Forums

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:56 am**

HeMeido wrote:Some thoughts I had while killing rakghouls. This is the path thread, so I'm not going to bother with spoilers.

Jigoro

Jigoro isn't as much of an asshole as people make him out to be. He's obviously glad that Shizune brought over a friend that isn't Misha - he's happy they used his fishing equipment and he cooks for Hisao. He also follows Hisao's advice about connecting with Shizune later on. It's just that by that point, Shizune hasn't learned that she can't always just do things her way. As insane as his ramblings are, they're mostly accurate. Even his remarks about how the student council is insignificant and how the room has too many tables and chairs for how many people there are in it can be taken to mean that Shizune shouldn't have driven away the people who could have been her friends over something as petty as a student government. Really, Jigoro's just massively tsundere towards his children.

Misha

My God, Misha. You think being Misha is suffering now? Think about this for a second.

Her sole comfort - her time alone with Shizune during student council work - is intruded upon by Hisao. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that, up until the point where Hisao starts communicating with Shizune in sign language, Misha has to witness and mediate the relationship that she desperately wants, but will never have. After that, she becomes the third wheel and finds every excuse she can to get out of their way so that she doesn't have to watch Shizune fall in love with someone else.

Shizune

Shizune manages to have it worse than Misha. She just handles it better.

Misha loves her. Hisao loves her. She loves Hisao. She knows this is causing problems... and there is absolutely no one she can talk to about it. The only people who understand her and who hang out with her are both part of the problem and she's driven away everyone else. She doesn't want to spend too much time with Hisao because she knows how much it would hurt Misha. She doesn't want to spend too much time with Misha because she wants to be a good girlfriend to Hisao. So, she focuses on the one thing the three of them can do together: student council work. If there's no student council work, she sends them both away to avoid showing favouritism. It doesn't help that she doesn't want to do couple things just for the sake of doing couple things anyway. Working with Hisao is more meaningful to her.

When Shizune goes to visit her family, she knows she has to bring Hisao along. She knows this will cut down on Misha's quality time with her. She sets Hisao up with Hideaki to make sure he doesn't get bored and spends most of her time with Misha to avoid making her feel left out. She buys some clothes for Hisao to show that she is thinking about him. When she realizes that this isn't enough, she decides to have sex with him to get closer to him and to show how much she really does love him.

Then Misha decides to stop hanging out with them. Shizune feels incredibly guilty at having driven away her best friend and the only friend she had for about a year, but Shizune doesn't mope. She tries to fix the situation the only way she knows how by doing things to draw Misha back to her. That doesn't work, Hisao comes up with a less overbearing approach. With her relationship with Misha smoothed out and her work with the student council done, Shizune can focus on being Hisao's girlfriend for a bit and they have sex again.

I think this is a really good reading of the material, I just think the material needed to handle it better. Without body language there needed to be a little more in there indicating people's intents, especially during those endless student council scenes. It never feels like you're in a relationship, maybe friends with benefits, yet you never press the matter which is what's so frustrating. You keep waiting for Hisao to notice and he bloody doesn't. Just a few smiles over the shoulders of others would have made a world of difference, or introducing a neutral character for Shizune to interact with to contrast better how she deals with you post-dating when you see her Act 1 self talking to someone else.

All the stuff above needed further exploring, the writing needs better editing I think. There's too much material repeating things which have gone before and not enough looking deeper into ideas it has already introduced. I think you have a deep and accurate reading, the problem is the characters in the game don't seem to read into it at this level and so the writing doesn't either.

I might disagree with you on the dad though, he talks about how his daughter refused to talk to him and then it's never explored further. I'm confused as to why the family holiday occurs at all since the path doesn't explore her family and focuses almost entirely on Misha.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:22 am**

Anyone know the name of the scene in which Kenjii removes his glasses?

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:34 pm**

Quitch wrote:Anyone know the name of the scene in which Kenjii removes his glasses?

He does it in the opening parts of Past Imperfective.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:11 pm**

Ao, uhm, where's ze Walkthrough?

P.S. I made new Account since I forgot my Original's details due to being four years ago

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:29 pm**

I found this route pretty disappointing. I thought Shizune had the most interesting route in Act 1 (even though I didn't find her particularly attractive) since she seemed very interested in engaging with Hisao, but I found I liked her less and less as I went through the route (especially when Misha's story got into gear; "Stop being sad right now!"). This is subjective, of course.

Its structure reminded me of something I don't like about some other VNs I've played; there's a long sequence of light comedy scenes in arbitrary order then some drama at the end. This one seemed to want to avoid having the drama be too heavy or laughably melodramatic (a common problem with this structure) but I think it's instead kind of limp. Misha's sad, then Hisao tells her to try harder and the problem's solved. That's boring.

Misha's story is the most interesting thing here (it teases at some trouble in her past several times) but it's not her route and she's only a comic fixture for most of the thing.

I guess it was trying to fool you into thinking there was a love triangle with both girls being in love with Hisao (the Act 2 video certainly seemed to be doing this), but I don't think that came across. I don't see what could have made anyone think Misha was in love with Hisao except her asking for sex and almost right away after that you learn she's gay.

Fincher wrote:Ao, uhm, where's ze Walkthrough?

It's on the first page of the forum. Look harder.

Fincher wrote:P.S. I made new Account since I forgot my Original's details due to being four years ago

I don't believe this interests anyone.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:22 pm**

I got very choked up and sad in the final scene as I first thought that they were all going their separate ways as many has written on the forums. But looking at it again I realize it's up to the reader to decide how it plays out after the game end. There is no canon answer, only what you decide for yourself. Therefore, I choose to read the final scene as Shizune and Hisao stay together and go to college/uni together, and Misha goes off to study abroad but visits them at least yearly and they all remain friends forever. This makes me happy.

Posted: **Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:10 pm**

Mirage_GSM wrote:End of Act II - "Do you want to be my girlfriend?" "Okay." *hug* "Okay, lets not talk about it at all for a few weeks."
Act III - *have sex out of the blue* "Okay, lets not talk about it at all for a few weeks."
Act IV - *have sex again*

omg that was totally what I was thinking as well -_-

Hemeido wrote: Meisha

My God, Misha. You think being Misha is suffering now? Think about this for a second.

Her sole comfort - her time alone with Shizune during student council work - is intruded upon by Hisao. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that, up until the point where Hisao starts communicating with Shizune in sign language, Misha has to witness and mediate the relationship that she desperately wants, but will never have. After that, she becomes the third wheel and finds every excuse she can to get out of their way so that she doesn't have to watch Shizune fall in love with someone else.

This so much.

I played through the Emi route just before this quite by accident - I was originally intending to play through Shizune or Hanako when I played the game (I loaded the game as a massive skeptic and didn't think I'd make it through the first hour, let alone complete it). If you read my thoughts on the Emi route, you'll see I was utterly, utterly blown away, and would class my runthrough of KS as one of my best experiences of the last few months (sad I know).
Having gone through Shizune's route now, I'm so glad I didn't play it first, as I was intending to. It might be that I loved the Emi route so much, and thought it was so well done, it might be that the bar was raised higher now than it was before, it might just be that this is my second runthrough and the game is no longer as 'new and exciting' as it was before, but I found Shizune's route really quite lacking...

I love Shizune's character at the end of Act 1, she's got to be one of my favourite. However, I don't feel that it really gained much after that, and seemed to get mired a bit and not move on veryw ell. Also, I thought there were a few cheap laughs (wtf father? He just felt like someone not real that I couldn't relate to at all). I was impressed with her bad ending from sleeping with Misha to the end, I think that felt more real to me than the rest of the story, demonstrating very well how people can drift apart, despite everyone's efforts to hold them together, and was glad there was no horrendous clash as I was worried at a few points (Or Misha doing something really dumb, you'll understand if you've played the bad ending).
While Emi's relationship with Hisao worked really well, IMHO perfectly representing a relationship between teenage friends as they change to going out, Shizune's relationship with Hisao IMHO frankly didn't work, see quote at top of post.
I think the biggest problem with Shizune's arc though is that I didn't feel there was anything pulling me through until Hisao sleeps(?) with Misha, after which there was the problem and urgency to solve it before people drifted too far apart. Before that, I'm actually struggling to remember critical things that happen and move the plot along (aside from "They do a bunch of non-relevant stuff which shows their character, but could almost be skipped over").

Also, wtf only one choice in the whole plot arc?

Also, I periodically keep bursting out "WHY DID HE BRING HIS SWORD TO THE SCHOOL???"

Also, Misha's old hair was AWESOME, after her hair cut it sucked so much T_T

Also, I think I'm the only person who saw the Act 2 video, and assumed Misha was just bittersweet about someone else being in Shizune's life - after all, apparently up until that point Shizune was totally reliant on her for talking to other people (notebook aside), as well as Misha being Shizune's only friend. Enter Hisao, and suddenly Misha isn't the sun Shizune revolves around anymore.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:20 pm**

am I the only one that likes Shizune's linear-but-complex path the most? Sure some people said it's not for everyone, and I do tend to agree it could go rather 'bland' and flat. But after replaying the route again, watching the cinematics (hinting the love triangle), and re-analyze the plot line I think I kinda' understand what the author want us to see.

And by God I LOVE this ACT more than the others

Where most of the other plot revolves around the troubles of one girl, Shizune's route specifically revolves around the development of TWO characters; Misha and Shizune herself. You have to first understand that the author wants you originally to treat Misha and Shizune as a SINGLE ENTITY (the student council) or as an inseparable duo (notice in all other acts where there is Misha there's Shii-chan?). Further in the arc, you began to learn that there are times when they would go their own separate ways or do their own thing in which Hisao is there as the 'middle man'.

now to sort this complex love triangle:
Hisao<Shizune<Misha

Since Act I, Shizune is already generally interested in Hisao academically (SC needs recruit) and prob. somewhat romantically (hint some of the untranslated babbles between her and Misha in Act I). Hisao, on the other hand, felt that he is generally forced into the group by 'conscription' and traps. Of course, this viewpoint change as he spends more time with Shizune--with the help of a certain individual, of course.

Now, if you have played/watched/read School Days before (and by God I forbid you to do so if you wish to keep your mental sanity), you know the basic love-triangle cliche of girl B plays cupid for girl A and boy A, but ends up falling for boy A. Now switch it around like this:

Girl B plays cupid for Girl A and Boy A, knowing full well Girl B has deep feelings for Girl A. Now put the respectable names of Misha as 'Girl B', Shizune for 'Girl A', and Hisao as 'Boy A' and you have the basic outline of Act II-Act III

Now to fully analyze the Acts piece by piece...
(note this is an attempt to break the plot points, and opinions may differ in others)

ACT II:
This Act is what I consider Misha's attempt on getting Shizune and Hisao together, either by supporting Hii-chan on studying sign language (so he can quickly talk with Shizune 1 on 1), leaving/vanishing at the busiest time for the Student Council with reasons such as 'catching up with school' allowing the two to be together more often, and finally leaving at the end of Tanabata which left Hisao and Shizune to form the confession. Hats off to our cupid Misha, mission accomplished

ACT III:
Shit got real in this ACT. You should began to gradually notice the lack of Misha's presence as Shizune's other half (remember the idea to treat them as a single entity?), to which she is gradually being replaced by the now-bilingual Hisao. You should notice at later point and further on ACT IV how Hisao became a more prominent translator for Shizune and Misha is often left in the cold of her original purpose as her other half. Yes, I call ACT III as the crucial point in which she--considering her strong-yet-blunt character--began to shove Misha away unconsciously as she put more and more affection towards Hisao. Misha tried to earn *extra* attention from Shizune by other means like say...a new haircut? How does that sound? It did gain Shizune's attention (or disapproval) for awhile. As we are nearing the end of ACT II and closer to *that scene*, do remember that this is told in Hisao's perspective. Remember that scene in the end of ACT III or the beginning of ACT IV where Misha is seen by Hisao to be sleeping/resting near a window? I beg to differ, as I see it as the beginning of her depression. How does it start? I am assuming that there is a third member in the vicinity of Hisao's room which saw them engage in such: Misha. Shizune entirely blocks Hisao's view, and for all things considered I don't recall Shizune locking Hisao's door before they start; Hisao reminded her to do this on ACT IV when they engage in *such* in the Student Council office. Besides, if you're stuck with an obnoxious dad in a friend's house during a weekend you would definitely try to find that friend of yours that has vanished mid-lecture.

ACT IV:
By this ACT, you may have now realize that Hisao has completely replaced Misha as Shizune's translator/closest aide/other half in almost all category; this is further hinted with the argument behind-the-scenes between Shizune and Misha. You now realize the fact of Misha's feelings for Shizune in this ACT and that OH-SHIT moment near the end of ACT III. You may also began to understand Shizune's character at this point and how she unknowingly pushed Misha away in favor of Hisao. As such, ACT IV is what I call as the 'compensation' act where Shizune, realizing her mistake in character began to formulate a plan (with Hisao) to return the group as they were before the complicated split. The ending--although it did left me kinda' hanging--left a smile on my face as finally, with the school year coming to an end, the three of them return together as they were once were. That last *scene* between Hisao and Shizune is like a reward for the him for sticking with her through troubling times; a note considering Shizune's character, is that she has been trying to get Hisao on the more 'offensive' side. You know, a la that 'risk' game? Too bad her timings are off (Kenji in Hisao's room) and probably Hisao missing the entire hint until she asks him directly.

and that's my take. I think I might be missing something, so fill me in. I love this arc the most as it is the most complex and complicated and often require further analyzing and re-reading to actually understand what's going on AROUND Hisao. Also, with a nod to Shizune's character (and since she's the main plot driver) I personally notice that the entire drama is not played by Hisao (like other ACT).

It is played by SHIZUNE. Yes, I believe Shizune did all the choice selection for Hisao and left him to face a decision whenMisha comes for 'comfort' (Shizune isn't there so she can't choose to join a possible threesome*hinthint*).. During most of the ACT, Shizune made a decision and Hisao follow. She made a decision, and Hisao follow suite--technically she's playing the entire game for you. lol

thoughts?

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:43 pm**

Megumeru wrote:I personally notice that the entire drama is not played by Hisao (like other ACT).

It is played by SHIZUNE. Yes, I believe Shizune did all the choice selection for Hisao and left him to face a decision whenMisha comes for 'comfort' (Shizune isn't there so she can't choose to join a possible threesome*hinthint*).. During most of the ACT, Shizune made a decision and Hisao follow. She made a decision, and Hisao follow suite--technically she's playing the entire game for you. lol

Which is one reason why I found it so dull. Hisao seems to miss out on all the best stuff.

Remember when Shizune and Misha came back from an outing that one day when they were all visiting the family? Misha has cut off nearly all her hair (a Japanese symbol/superstition for leaving the past behind) and Shizune seems compelled to go bang Hisao and happens to tell him that she realizes she tries to draw people into her life and that sometimes it's a bad thing.

I'd sure like to know what happened on that outing, but I was stuck with Hisao and Hideaki, trudging through bland comedy.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:55 pm**

Megumeru wrote:am I the only one that likes Shizune's linear-but-complex path the most? Sure some people said it's not for everyone, and I do tend to agree it could go rather 'bland' and flat. But after replaying the route again, watching the cinematics (hinting the love triangle), and re-analyze the plot line I think I kinda' understand what the author want us to see.
...
thoughts?

I think you may be on to something.

Here's something I wrote in this thread back on page 7:

...at one point, Hisao reflects that much of Shizune's conversations with people consists of words without many emotional cues -- short sentences on a pad, or Hisao's rudimentary sign language -- and that's one reason Shizune seems to stare intently at people. She's trying to detect the emotional component of the conversation by closely observing what the other person is doing.

Maybe the Hisao-Shizune relationship is written in that way on purpose -- little internal emotional dialog by Hisao, to give the reader a similar "emotionless" description of their relationship -- so the reader needs to "figure out" the emotional component by observing what they do.

I think you're right in that you can't just go by the plain text of the story; as Fronzel just complained, he (Hisao) was stuck with Hideaki while important stuff was going on offstage. You aren't fed that information, you have to observe how people act to figure some important information out.

Just as an aside, the two girls I understand least are Shizune and Rin; Rin is my favorite, and Shizune my least favorite. I think this is because, since I can't understand either one, all I can go on is my gut reaction, and I just naturally prefer Rin's personality, and don't care for Shizune's. I didn't like her when Act 1 came out, but after reading people discussing her character, I liked her a lot more. I think the same thing can happen with her path.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:34 pm**

Merlyn_LeRoy wrote:You aren't fed that information, you have to observe how people act to figure some important information out.

The problem I find with this is that Hisao is the player's lens into the story. I could tell that Shizune was acting weird but Hisao didn't seem to notice anything. It ends up being the story of how unobservant and dull Hisao is because everything else is concealed.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:37 pm**

.......you.... misha... the... drills.... WOW. nuf said, though i have to sa this is a really good path to take after lilly or hanako, its a cool steady ride the whole time, much less of a roller coaster ride.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:57 pm**

Fronzel wrote:
Merlyn_LeRoy wrote:
Megumeru wrote:You aren't fed that information, you have to observe how people act to figure some important information out.
The problem I find with this is that Hisao is the player's lens into the story. I could tell that Shizune was acting weird but Hisao didn't seem to notice anything. It ends up being the story of how unobservant and dull Hisao is because everything else is concealed.

Exactly.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:06 pm**

I'd have to agree with some of the people that were disappointed with playing though Shizune's path. Personally, I thought it was a little lacking but then again, I ended up going through Emi and Hanako's paths first. Aside from that I enjoyed it, and to me the good end seems a little bittersweet for the obvious reasons. Add to the fact I'm probably going to end up paying more attention to how my friends act, since this path sorta fits two of them.

I also have to agree with the disapproval of Misha cutting her hair, just seemed like she was slowly dying after that.

Its also a bit of a shame at how oblivious Hisao is to certain things.

Three good ends so far... at this rate I don't think I could stand seeing any of the bad ends.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:13 pm**

My problem with this path is, that I didnt noticed any romantic feelings from Shizune to Hisao. They felt to me just like friends with benefits. And both were okay with that.

I think this path would be much stronger if we could play it through Misha´s perspective.

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