Random KS Discussion

[AaronIsCrunchy]

The double-standards are justified by bloody good reasons ?

No, they're not justified. You can't justify them, as they're wrong. I meant it actually as an argument against it, saying that the double standards exist, even though that if it was just a male Hanako with the same backstory and whatnot, one would expect him to behave in exactly the same way due to said backstory.

[LordMarluxia]

The double-standards are justified by bloody good reasons ?

No, they're not justified. You can't justify them, as they're wrong. I meant it actually as an argument against it, saying that the double standards exist, even though that if it was just a male Hanako with the same backstory and whatnot, one would expect him to behave in exactly the same way due to said backstory.

Well, some double standards are justified. I feel that men and women are different. Equality is a fallacy in its purest form.
Men and women should have equal rights but they are not the same. Not physically and not mentally.

In Hanako's case's case, the double standards are not justified. Like Aaron said, most people, whether they are men or women, would have the exact same behavior and reactions having lived Hanako's life. It's not something that people can "man up". I didn't live Hanako's life, but I experienced some of things she went through and still I hasn't able to suddenly "man up".

I'm not even sure what "manning up" is supposed to mean.

[SpunkySix]

I'm not even sure what "manning up" is supposed to mean.

At this point it basically means "be an unfeeling asshole".


WE NOW INTERRUPT THIS RANDOM CONVERSATION TO BRING YOU YET ANOTHER FRIENDLY REMINDER FROM SPUNKY INDUSTRIES:


YOUR WAIFU DOES NOT LOVE YOU


THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION, SCHEDULED FEELS WILL RESUME SHORTLY

[Broomhead]

Emi.jpg (34.07 KiB) Viewed 3674 times

You've made her angry Spunky. Don't tell lies about her Spunky. Why'd you do this Spunky?

[Megumeru]

I'm not even sure what "manning up" is supposed to mean.

At this point it basically means "be an unfeeling asshole".


WE NOW INTERRUPT THIS RANDOM CONVERSATION TO BRING YOU YET ANOTHER FRIENDLY REMINDER FROM SPUNKY INDUSTRIES:


YOUR WAIFU DOES NOT LOVE YOU


THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION, SCHEDULED FEELS WILL RESUME SHORTLY

Your waifu loves Hisao.
You are not Hisao.

Now let that sink in...

[Broomhead]

Your waifu loves Hisao.
You are not Hisao.

Now let that sink in...

I'd argue that you are Hisao, because you were his internal decision making process.

If a rock hits someone, it's the person who threw its fault. Not the rock, nor the momentum.

You decided what Hisao would say at crucial moments, leading to what happened in each of the endings. Yes, you may not have Arrythmia, and yes, you may not be japanese, but inside, Hisao was being controlled by you. In his situation, you were still the controller. Hell, I don't even refer to Revan or Cmdr. Shepard by that, I say "My Revan" or "My Cmdr. Shepard" because I was the one making the choices! There is no reason to believe that in the same situation as Hisao was I would not make the same choices as my Hisao would.

Do you blame the rock for your broken nose when it hits you? No, you blame the idiot who threw it.

If your life was being controlled by another person, who was in complete control of your choices and actions, would you say those were your actions? Of course not, logically you as a person did not take them. Yes your body did, but you did not make the choice or follow through. The entity did. It's the basis of self-forgiveness to realize that you would make a different choice in the past, or that it was the best choice at the time. While other may not believe you, it'd be the only way to stay sane, and, logically, the only true way to say it. If you don't believe in free will, this argument falls apart, but even then you are wrong, and I'd venture a bad person. Saying you have no control over your actions is denial of responsibility. If you can't own up to how you act you'll never improve.

Do you blame the hand of the idiot for his actions? No, you blame his mind and soul for making the choice.

Without getting into religion and politics, choices are the essence of humanity. Without one of your parents deciding to have sex, you would never have been born. Without you typing out an account on this board, you would never have seen this message. So how can you say the girl wouldn't love my Hisao or Marly's Hisao? We represent the same mind that made the choices that led them to fall in love. Sure, we may look different. Sure, we may not say exactly the same words. But in essence, we are the ones who made the choices. And as such, we are the ones who they fell in love with. Would Rin fall in love with me? No, I made different choices that led me to Lilly's good end (or Hanako's good end depending on how you count it). Would Lilly fall in love with Spunky? Probably not, he prefers Emi. Of course, whether or not he got Emi good end at first may determine whether that relationship works out or not. But at a basic level, we are the same as Hisao from the games.

Perhaps I'm pissed at you taking away dreams and stuff, but it's a fairly interesting philosophical topic. Free will is not something to be joked around about, as it is the essence of society. Without it, we are still animals simply rutting and hunting along with the deer and lions of ancient days.

[SpunkySix]

Your waifu loves Hisao.
You are not Hisao.

Now let that sink in...

choices are the essence of humanity

Free will is not something to be joked around about, as it is the essence of society. Without it, we are still animals simply rutting and hunting along with the deer and lions of ancient days.

Well... choices are an illusion and free will is actually incoherent to the point of being widely discredited by philosophers as a reality, as in it more than likely does not exist because it is extremely illogical, so... yeah. We really aren't any more than animals acting on instinct, we just happen to have gotten "lucky" enough to be self aware about it. The thing is though, Hisao is being directly controlled with intent, whereas we are simply the products of determined actions and reactions with no purposeful direction, so it's a little different.

In the end, it depends whether you define "Hisao" as the character in-universe or as his driving force. If it's the first, then you are totally out of the equation. If it's the second, then indirectly your actions have caused this character to "fall for you" in as much as a conceptual portion of a narrative with set responses to specific choices can do so.

You've made her angry Spunky. Don't tell lies about her Spunky. Why'd you do this Spunky?

[Broomhead]

Well... choices are an illusion and free will is actually incoherent to the point of being widely discredited by philosophers as a reality, as in it more than likely does not exist because it is extremely illogical, so... yeah.

Pah. Yes, you are a chemical reaction. Your actions are based entirely on your raising and enviroment. However, that doesn't change the fact that you are the chemical reaction she fell in love with. Also, the concept of not having free will is insanely depressing as it negates all responsibility for actions. Also, when I got Hanako/Lilly good ending I was going completely off of instinct. No guides, no saves. (I actually played through the entire game on a single save, aside from when screwed Misha because I wanted to see Shizune's good ending but was insanely aroused.) So whether or not Hisao or I have free will matters little in your arguement. If I have no free will, and made choices as my environment made me, then so did Hisao as my agent, meaning Lilly and Hanako fell in love with the mind that inputted Hisao's actions. If I do have free will, then Hisao acted as my mind did, and they still fell in love with my decisions.

I choose the second, because you are directly affecting the story. That's the point of an interactive medium. In a movie, i wouldn't call Luke "My Luke" or Aragorn "My Aragorn" because I had no affect on how they acted. Sure, Peter jackson and several other writers did, so J.R. and P.J. may be able to talk about the character like that, but I can't. However, in any medium you can make a choice, you are creating essentially your version of that character. My Shepard fell in love with Tali, but my friend's Shepard never healed over his wounds from Ashley, who died on Virmire. There is Casey Hudson's "Cmdr. Shepard" which is considered more canon than mine or my friends, but they aren't the same. Ditto Revan.

Also, I don't quite understand what those last couple of words meant, so i responded as best I could. If you wish to clarify, I will respond appropriately.

I admit that, purely logically, free will doesn't exist by the way. You as an entity are the result of chemicals and actions. But, and I'm sorry to do this, religiously and philosophically I believe choices are that which makes humans human. This may make me insane, and perhaps a bit evil, but I do see Homo Sapiens Sapiens that aren't "Human" in my religious and philosophical sense. Of course, I don't tell people which they are in my views, because I'm only exposed to that which they show, but the judgement does affect my trust.

[SpunkySix]

Well... choices are an illusion and free will is actually incoherent to the point of being widely discredited by philosophers as a reality, as in it more than likely does not exist because it is extremely illogical, so... yeah.

Stuff

I agree with your general point that the girls fall in love with the mind behind the choices, which in a sense is "you". I don't share your religious views, but I see no reason to argue them either, so that's all good. The last few words you mentioned were just a fancy way of saying "as much as a fictional person can feel".

As for the depressing concept of having no responsibility for your own actions... this has plagued me. I pride myself on trying to push myself hard and be the best that I can be in all areas of life. Furthermore, I love Emi so much largely because she is so driven and determined. She doesn't quit, and it's inspiring.

Thing is... all of that falls to shit if it's determined and there is no real choice to do anything else- or so it would seem. After countless hours of thought on the subject, I've come to the conclusion that while the actions themselves are determined and a person may not have a choice in the matter as to which qualities they demonstrate, the fact is that in the end, they still demonstrate those qualities, and they can still be admirable.

Even if Emi has no choice but to keep pushing herself, for example, is it not still beautiful to see that somebody with such resilience can be produced from surroundings that seem to be begging for a quitter? Is it not still sweet to see that a person can be compelled to go so out of their way to help a fellow student in a world that demands selfishness? Does her banter not make me smile?

In this way, I've decided that people are like landscapes- they may not be able to decide how they are formed, but they are still marvels of nature that can inspire awe within those that look upon them. We do not judge a picturesque savannah with the sun setting in the background by what made it, but by how it appears to us as it is. The qualities that make a place wonderful are not selected, but they are undeniably present, and it may be that that is all that matters in the end.

In fact, it is perhaps more impressive that out of such complete chaos, something so nice can be produced than it would be if choice was involved. Of course we would choose the best outcome if we could; that would be guaranteed. In a world without choice where nothing is so definite, however, all that is good truly is the result of excellent fortune. Even the continuation of life itself is a miracle in a world like that.

[Broomhead]

I agree with your general point that the girls fall in love with the mind behind the choices, which in a sense is "you". I don't share your religious views, but I see no reason to argue them either, so that's all good. The last few words you mentioned were just a fancy way of saying "as much as a fictional person can feel".

I apologize for mentioning it, I just wanted to put it out there that it was a belief not backed up by facts or logic, just gut reactions and world view.

[SpunkySix]

I agree with your general point that the girls fall in love with the mind behind the choices, which in a sense is "you". I don't share your religious views, but I see no reason to argue them either, so that's all good. The last few words you mentioned were just a fancy way of saying "as much as a fictional person can feel".

I apologize for mentioning it, I just wanted to put it out there that it was a belief not backed up by facts or logic, just gut reactions and world view.

It's totally fine, I understand.

I think it's also interesting to note that in a world without free will, we are fundamentally more like the KS characters than we are different. The only real difference between us is our plane of existence and the source of our actions at that point, which is borderline superficial, if inconvenient.

[Broomhead]

(Peels up old scar tissue from before)

That's why Myers Briggs and personality quizzes work. There are archetypes in the human mind we run along (don't ask me why, haven't studied psychology in college.), and alhtough there are slight variations, you can always trace it down to a few frameworks and key events. I'm also going to say the majority of people here have had rough lives, emotionally or physically, and as such are more likely to relate to Hisao and the girls because of that.

I have chronic migraines related to stress, sunlight, and exertion. When i discovered this, my parents moved me (I was grateful) to a different school where I wouldn't be bullied nearly as much. had it not been for Migraines (Arrhythmia) I would never have gone to a different district (Yamaku). That's why I relate to Hisao so much. I also relate to Lilly and Hanako for similar reasons, but my point is made.

[Megumeru]

Woah looks like some jimmies are rustled

[Broomhead]

If I get to 250+ posts, I may declare myself Lilly general, but for now, I'm happy with the title being nebulous and deferring to Aussie and Aaron for that. And neither they nor Spunky made a Jimmy rustling image, so this could be counted as civil. slime That and you were the rustler for me anyways, and I wasn't even angry, so it would've been pointless and wrong to post the .gif anyways. Unless you want to blather on about how Shizune is god or something like that. And even then, I'd just reply with some Nightcore or Tal Bachman.

[SpunkySix]

I'm not angry to be clear, just passionate. I love philosophical concepts like this. The world really is mind blowing when you apply reason to it.