Katawa Shoujo Forums

Mirage_GSM wrote:

"I'm sorry, Hanako, but...maybe you just don't know how...frustrating that's been for me. Remember the other day, when I told you I was trying to move forward with my life, but people weren't letting me do that?" I nod hesitantly, and he continues, "This is what I meant. It feels like I've had this conversation with you a hundred times, but it always comes back to Lilly. I know we've talked about being patient with each other, but...but it's got a limit, you know?

You know, I wish a reaction like THIS had been somewhere in Sisterhood!

I think the fact that this never happened in Sisterhood was because that was Hisao's first relationship. Lilly-Hisao and Hana-Hisao are two separate people, all in all. Also, in Sisterhood, Hanako's jealousy is a lot less of an issue because Hisao chose her at first, and not Lilly. In Developments, she was never his first object of affection, or his first in anything else, and I can tell you that it can hurt if you have that mindset. Took me a long time to come to terms with that with an old ex.

bhtooefr wrote:I should note that there are two ongoing works of fiction that have me rapidly pressing F5 or Cmd-R (depending on which platform I'm using).

Questionable Content, with the current arc, is one of them. (And Claire just did her best impression of Hanako in the latest strip...)

This is the other.

A high compliment indeed.

But -- no offense -- this one...

Mirage_GSM wrote:After the way you handled this chapter, I feel pretty confident to say that this is the best KS-fiction I've read so far. I don't think you'll botch that up on the home stretch

...that...you know, given that I think you've probably read more KS fiction than anyone else...I don't know what to say except "thanks". That means more than you can imagine.

azumeow wrote:

Mirage_GSM wrote:

"I'm sorry, Hanako, but...maybe you just don't know how...frustrating that's been for me. Remember the other day, when I told you I was trying to move forward with my life, but people weren't letting me do that?" I nod hesitantly, and he continues, "This is what I meant. It feels like I've had this conversation with you a hundred times, but it always comes back to Lilly. I know we've talked about being patient with each other, but...but it's got a limit, you know?

You know, I wish a reaction like THIS had been somewhere in Sisterhood!

I think the fact that this never happened in Sisterhood was because that was Hisao's first relationship. Lilly-Hisao and Hana-Hisao are two separate people, all in all. Also, in Sisterhood, Hanako's jealousy is a lot less of an issue because Hisao chose her at first, and not Lilly. In Developments, she was never his first object of affection, or his first in anything else, and I can tell you that it can hurt if you have that mindset. Took me a long time to come to terms with that with an old ex.

I think there's truth to both of these. This is one of the reasons I said that in the S:TE thread that Hanako actually had things too easy -- Hisao really did have Hanako up on a pedestal, whether she would want that or not. In this one, he never did, and never will -- and, as I implied in the chapter, had Emi not been in the picture, I think there's a good chance that they would have been able to create a relationship that was healthier for it.

It's more than the fact that she wasn't Hisao's first choice here.

The dynamic between the two is different in Sisterhood, since they're never in direct competition, so even though Hanako has moments where she wonders if Lilly may or may not be attracted to Hisao, she never has a reason not to immediately dismiss those thoughts afterwards. Hanako's lapses of faith, tendencies for jumping to bad conclusions about others and penchant for straight-up paranoia during her bad days are brought up in that story as well, though I think it's usually in Hanako's character to internalize this sort of thing, rather than voicing it, and never being quite sure enough of herself to confront others with it.

What this story does (and does pretty well), is giving Hanako enough success in her attempts at wooing Hisao to make her sincerely believe she had a chance to come out on top over Lilly and Emi, against her usual beliefs that she'd automatically be the loser in any competition that featured more than just her as a contestant. So when the carrot was yanked away again, she still had enough self-confidence left to voice her misgivings instead of internalizing them, which came back to bite her.

When Lilly came back, I went against my usual preferences and switched my vote to Emi, because with Lilly back in the picture, Hanako's insecurities would remain a festering wound that would make a healthy relationship between herself and Hisao all but impossible and that's not even getting started on her friendship with Lilly. Two friends being interested in the same girl/guy can do some nasty trust damage on the friendship, even with people who aren't as insecure as Hanako. This situation was pretty much the worst situation for a person like Hanako.

dewelar wrote: In this one, he never did, and never will -- and, as I implied in the chapter, had Emi not been in the picture, I think there's a good chance that they would have been able to create a relationship that was healthier for it.

I can see where Hanako seems to realize this as well:

As I take in what he's saying, for some reason I feel a small sense of relief. With every event of these last few days, I'd assumed the worst, but in the end the worst never materialized. The more I think about it, the more I realize that what has happened is an outcome that I can accept. Emi won this race fairly, and I can take some solace in the fact that my nightmares didn't come to pass.

I think this is the best possible outcome for Hanako. She needed to learn that, win or lose, she can participate in the race. Getting Hisao as a "boyfriend" would have been a nice bonus, but it's not necessary for her character development. In fact, in this case, losing to Emi may be better for her in the long run.

Speaking of Emi, as with her VN route, Emi needs to realize that she can let somebody past her emotional event horizon and still be strong. For that to happen, Emi needs to actually win the race, and get Hisao. Of course, right now, the race is hers, provided she doesn't trip at the finish line.

This is one of the reasons I said that in the S:TE thread that Hanako actually had things too easy -- Hisao really did have Hanako up on a pedestal, whether she would want that or not.

This. First relationship or not. But it's not solely Hisao's fault: There would have been plenty of characters who could have called Hanako out on her stuff, but none of them did.

...that...you know, given that I think you've probably read more KS fiction than anyone else...I don't know what to say except "thanks". That means more than you can imagine.

I'm not sure about that. With three or four exceptions I read all stories on these forums, but then I didn't read a single one that might have been posted elsewhere. Thanks anyway.
And to think that after the first chapter I thought this was going to be a standard Hisao X Lilly Fix-Fic....

Mirage_GSM wrote:

...that...you know, given that I think you've probably read more KS fiction than anyone else...I don't know what to say except "thanks". That means more than you can imagine.

I'm not sure about that. With three or four exceptions I read all stories on these forums, but then I didn't read a single one that might have been posted elsewhere. Thanks anyway.

I've read (or at least started to read) most of the off-board fics that have popped on various recommendation lists, and IMO none of those measure up to the ones on this board I consider the best. Someone like Leaty who does read a lot more off-board stuff could correct me if I'm wrong.

And to think that after the first chapter I thought this was going to be a standard Hisao X Lilly Fix-Fic....

Heh...that's the one thing this was never going to be. I'm very glad you hung in there with me through those early bumps .

This. First relationship or not. But it's not solely Hisao's fault: There would have been plenty of characters who could have called Hanako out on her stuff, but none of them did.

Without wanting to hijack the thread too much...

Yumi eventually does, pointing out to Hanako that her friends are merely doing what they're doing because they want to lift her out of her rut and get back to the good times, though things have definitely hit rock bottom by then.

First relationship is only part of it. The main reason, aside from wanting to cut someone suffering from depression as much slack as possible, is the fact Hanako tends to really come out of her shell when she has an opportunity to support others, yet retreats back into it whenever she's going through a rough patch herself and Hisao's still not really sure how to deal with it. Hanako's very much someone who likes to suffer in silence and in private...people jumping through hoops to help her often make her even feel worse about herself, both in the VN and in the story. It's kind of a no-win situation for the rest. The resolution of Hanako's development in the story is largely learning to be more accepting of other people's help during her rough times, like asking Lilly for help during her final assignment, accepting the help of the Satous and, after being dropped off, simply inviting them in for a drink and voicing her appreciation, rather than feeling bad or guilty for burdening them. Breaking her habit of pushing everyone away during her bad days and learning to feel comfortable and appreciative rather than guilty for the people in her network going out of their way for her was, in my opinion, the one thing Hanako still had to learn before graduating, so when those inevitable bad days would pop up in the future again, she'd be better equipped to deal with them instead of letting them spiral out of control.

Guest Poster wrote:Without wanting to hijack the thread too much...

Actually, there's one point you brought up that I feel like I should address.

someone suffering from depression

While certainly Hanako does feel depressed from time to time, that's not the same thing to me as actually suffering from depression. I don't believe she does. Self-esteem issues, yes. Abandonment issues, yes. Trust issues, yes yes. But clinical depression? The signs aren't there for me to support that conclusion (FWIW, I am more inclined to believe Misha or Yuuko suffer from depression than Hanako). Obviously, YMMV, but that's what I've tried to reflect throughout her arc in Developments.

dewelar wrote:While certainly Hanako does feel depressed from time to time, that's not the same thing to me as actually suffering from depression. I don't believe she does. Self-esteem issues, yes. Abandonment issues, yes. Trust issues, yes yes. But clinical depression? The signs aren't there for me to support that conclusion (FWIW, I am more inclined to believe Misha or Yuuko suffer from depression than Hanako). Obviously, YMMV, but that's what I've tried to reflect throughout her arc in Developments.

This is almost exactly my opinion on the subject as well. I suspect she suffers from post-traumatic stress, but I don't know that she's clinically depressed in the classical sense.

That's why in my own story I don't personally think Iwanako shares nearly as much in common with Hanako as Iwanako herself thinks she does. There's a lot of common ground, certainly, but while Hanako primarily struggles to have faith in herself, Iwanako struggles to have faith in the world around her.

(2x hijack combo!)

I would go so far as to say that even Hisao seems like a more likely candidate for someone with serious issues with depression. Going by the VN alone, without sufficient social support, he is utterly hopeless.

Thank you for another excellent chapter.

I agree with others that all the things she experienced either bad or good will certainly help her develop and be more trusting towards others and tear down the walls she built up. I also like how well she took Hisao's rejection but because of these past experiences it was expected. And I think over time the friendship between Lilly, Hanako & Hisao will soon grow again.

Were in the home strecth definitly, now all thats left is will Emi let Hisao in and tell him how she feels.

ogorhan wrote:Were in the home strecth definitly, now all thats left is will Emi let Hisao in and tell him how she feels.

Right. That’s all.

Given the author has stated that there are eight or so chapters left, we still have a bumpy ride to go.

griffon8 wrote:

ogorhan wrote:Were in the home strecth definitly, now all thats left is will Emi let Hisao in and tell him how she feels.

Right. That’s all.

Given the author has stated that there are eight or so chapters left, we still have a bumpy ride to go.

Well yeah thats a given, since when in fanfiction did things ever go smooth ?

You all are probably tired of getting updates like this, but this chapter has gotten...well, a bit out of hand. I'm not sure exactly when an update might be considered "Helbereth-scale", but this one is definitely going to be over 10,000 words (it's actually over 11,000 at the time of this post). I've been rewriting whole sections for the past week, but I think I've finally got the flow of it wrangled. Still, I think it's going to need another edit/re-write pass before the read-aloud phase, so...a couple more days, minimum, I think.

*shakes head at own craziness*

Thanks for bearing with me...

EDIT: Okay, never mind . Chapter coming in a few minutes.

Don't sweat it. Take your time, and when it's done, it's done. Definitely looking forward to this upcoming chapter.

I personally like reading longer chapters (as long as they aren't horribly written). Nice seeing an update at least