Katawa Shoujo Forums

Charmant wrote:This guy just discovered purple and it is the best thing.

Cool as hell. Also, if any color deserves that level of freaking out, it's purple. Best color, no comparison.

Wasn't there a fanfic where the girls played a pen & paper RPG? Well, here's a D20 for Lilly.

The other day i was watching the news and it was talking about this stick-on kind of thing that can heal damaged tissues such as burn scars and such. I immediately thought of Hanako.

Regrading this invention: Sign Aloud

The first sound Misha programs in for Shizune is "Whahaha~!"

From what I've read, they don't actually translate sign language, and it's kind of offensive that to suggest they do. It's a shame that so much of the news coverage focuses on that angle, rather on applications the gloves might actually be useful for.

Note that real sign languages usually make heavy use of facial expression. Even if the gloves had perfect sensors, which they don't, they still wouldn't be able to even tell the difference between a statement and a question.

From what I see in the video they do translate sign language and they do a quite good job of it - even factoring in that they probably made sure that the script they used for the video was something the gloves could recognize and maybe practiced it a few times before recording.
So what if they don't recognize facial expressions? So they are not perfect, but for someone who doesn't speak sign language at all they are a whole lot better than nothing.
As for distinguishing between a statement and a question, that's something human brains can do quite well from context.

Very nice video:

It's German, but you don't really have to understand the language.

Mirage_GSM wrote:From what I see in the video they do translate sign language and they do a quite good job of it - even factoring in that they probably made sure that the script they used for the video was something the gloves could recognize and maybe practiced it a few times before recording.
So what if they don't recognize facial expressions? So they are not perfect, but for someone who doesn't speak sign language at all they are a whole lot better than nothing.
As for distinguishing between a statement and a question, that's something human brains can do quite well from context.

I don't have any knowledge of sign language myself. I was just going by the comments I saw from actual Deaf people who were upset about it.

For example:

Translation gloves do not exist. The creators never said it does translation (or at least I could not find a quote where they claim so).
The gloves associate predefined moves to predefined words, that's not translation.

(emphasis in original)

or

Are you referring to the gloves? Because they're completely useless! The gloves miss out on the point BIG TIME. They don't consider that ASL isn't just hands, but the face is a huge source of meaning, tone and nuance in ASL. Non-manual signs. And the gloves are fucking stupid, who will want to wear them? Not to mention that it's only a one-way device, it doesn't do anything to help deaf people understand spoken language... which is basically what deaf people actually need to participate in society.

The gloves associate predefined moves to predefined words, that's not translation.

Well, if that's not translation, then I want to know their definition of "translation" ^^°

They don't consider that ASL isn't just hands, but the face is a huge source of meaning, tone and nuance in ASL.

And that argument is quite stupid considering what the alternative would be. If a deafmute person wanted to communicate with someone who doesn't understand sign without those gloves, they'd have to write stuff down on a piece of paper. That would take a lot longer and would not convey tone and nuance either.

Any yes, it is only one direction of communication, but many deaf people can read lips at least a little bit, and even if they don't facilitating half the conversation is better than nothing at all.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

The gloves associate predefined moves to predefined words, that's not translation.

Well, if that's not translation, then I want to know their definition of "translation" ^^°

Heh, sounds like translation without interpretation, just like Google Translate does (often with wonky results).

Hmmm... Maybe, but google translate mainly has problems when the source and target language have vastly different grammars - and even then it's becoming more understandable recently.
These gloves seem to function a bit like screen reading software - only they don't read a screen but gestures. So as long as the "speaker" is using the grammar correctly there shouldn't be any problems.
Or maybe Stephen Hawking's voice software... "It's a little hard to read your tone of voice..."
His "voice" doesn't have inflection either, but it enables him to communicate pretty well, so calling something like that "completely useless" is simply not true.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Well, if that's not translation, then I want to know their definition of "translation" ^^°

Normally translation is considered to mean accurately conveying the meaning of what is being translated, not just doing word-for-word translation.

If a deafmute person wanted to communicate with someone who doesn't understand sign without those gloves, they'd have to write stuff down on a piece of paper. That would take a lot longer and would not convey tone and nuance either.

Technically, people are more likely to use smartphone/tablet apps than handwriting for communication nowadays. And at least when writing, you can say what you want to without sounding like a complete idiot. But apart from that, I think the backlash stems from the hype and the idea that hearing people might assume it works better than it does. Is it better than nothing? Possibly. But that doesn't mean it is a substitute for interpreters.

Think about it this way: Would you want to say, live in China using only a rudimentary machine translator? (Assume for the sake of argument that noone in China knows any English). Would you want people in China to assume that there is no need to ever learn any English because you have a machine that lets you say "Do not want"?

Mirage_GSM wrote:Hmmm... Maybe, but google translate mainly has problems when the source and target language have vastly different grammars

Did you know that English and ASL have vastly different grammars?

Mirage_GSM wrote: These gloves seem to function a bit like screen reading software - only they don't read a screen but gestures. So as long as the "speaker" is using the grammar correctly there shouldn't be any problems.

That's like saying there shouldn't be any problems as long as you speak in simple English words using Chinese grammar.

Normally translation is considered to mean accurately conveying the meaning of what is being translated, not just doing word-for-word translation.

No. That's normally considered to be a good translation. If I just want to be able to communicate with someone at all I'll just bear with it.

Technically, people are more likely to use smartphone/tablet apps than handwriting for communication nowadays.

Well, I'm still not as fast when typing on a smartphone as I am with pen and paper, but I'm sure others are. doesn't make any difference, though. Both methods have the same problems.

And at least when writing, you can say what you want to without sounding like a complete idiot.

I have never assumed that Steven Hawking is a complete idiot because he uses a machine to talk. Neither have I assumed that for others (like the little girl in the video I linked above), and people who assume that are probably not worth associating with in the first place.

Is it better than nothing? Possibly. But that doesn't mean it is a substitute for interpreters.

Uhh... Of course... Having an interpreter is better. I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise. If every mute person always had an interpreter with them noone would need those gloves. The point is not every mute person always DOES have an interpreter.

Think about it this way: Would you want to say, live in China using only a rudimentary machine translator? (Assume for the sake of argument that noone in China knows any English). Would you want people in China to assume that there is no need to ever learn any English because you have a machine that lets you say "Do not want"?

Well, if I had to live in China and noone there spoke English (and also assuming that I didn't have the option of learning Chinese to make this metaphor work), then YES I would very much like to have a machine that let me at least say 'do not want' in Chinese. And those gloves have already shown to be better than that in their first presentation. I assume they will get better until they get ready for marketing.

Did you know that English and ASL have vastly different grammars?

As a matter of fact, yes - even though I admit that I don't know the fine points of ASL grammar. I have seen sentences that have been literally translated from ASL to English, though, and they are easily understandable.

That's like saying there shouldn't be any problems as long as you speak in simple English words using Chinese grammar.

No. Because I don't know Chinese grammar. Every person who 'speaks' ASL does also know English grammar. They also use it all the time when reading books and writing stuff down.
So using those gloves to talk English would be just like using a pen to write English only faster.

To conclude: Nobody is forcing you to use the gloves yourself if you don't like them, but I think it's seriously unfair to dis something that might be a big help to many people just because it doesn't provide a perfect translation and "makes them sound silly".