Katawa Shoujo Forums

I'm surprised to see you of all people upholding the flag of democracy ^^°
What's wrong with simply letting Sea decide?

Mirage_GSM wrote:I'm surprised to see you of all people upholding the flag of democracy ^^°
What's wrong with simply letting Sea decide?

every decision that is made by a single person is bound to be flawed. by having multiple inputs one can have a better understanding and better insight, which will ultimatly lead to a better choice.
Democracy shall not perish from the earth!

Welcome to the First official meeting of the Yamaku book club!
It's finally time! As we here at the club are going off of GMT (From here on out) It has just passed 24:00 and it's the 28th!
First things first, all discussion is now open, until such time as the second meeting begins at which time all further discussion should be carried out on the thread of the fic in question.
Secondly, (I really have got to shake this numerical thing) Comrade, as Khan Bek has convinced me to give Democracy a try, at least this time until we find out if it'll work or no, so the next fic shall be decided by popular consensus among a pool of 3 fics, which are as follows:

Direction - Epilogue by Muphrid (completed, 52.716 words)
PoV: Hisao; Pairings: Hisao X Rin; Begins: after Rin 2nd bad end
Remarks: sex

One Wish – Epilogue by DaGarver (completed, 19.425 words.)
PoV: Hisao,Hanako; Pairings: Hisao X Hanako; Begins: after Hanako neutral end
Remarks: character death

The United States of Misha – Epilogue by Hoitash (complete, ca. 37.400 words) (main story only)
PoV: Misha; Pairings: Misha X OC; Begins: after Shizune good end
Remarks: sex

Keep in mind this is all new, so if we get some friction starting out it's to be expected, thanks once again to everybody who participates, community stuff like this is what makes this thread such a awesome place and I hope we can continue on for a long time to come. All who engage in the discussion for the first meeting shall get a spot on the members list (titles pending) and everyone can vote on the next fic. All voting should be done by PM only to avoid arguments and spamming. Also, please feed us back on whether democracy is good or bad. I'm mostly getting a negative vibe but lets try it out at least. Also, as you can see all the fics under options are rather long and this is to facilitate discussion time, but the next round is either going to be choices of short fics or if democracy is shot down I'll choose a shorter one. Which do you all prefer? So without further ado (and the knowledge I should probably start writing the post before 24:00 GMT) The first meeting is now in session.

Well, let's start off by getting this out of the way: this fic was written in 2011, and as such its author didn't know anything beyond act 1.

It's actually a satisfactory route for Misha in a lot of respects. I had no idea anyone had ever done so to completion, but if not for the fact that her assumed disability is way off base, this could be considered a complete pseudo route - with some magical overtones.

The dialogue is very rigid, almost throughout. Everyone sort of sounds like Lilly with near-perfect diction and very little personality. Emi actually uses the word "retire" at one point, which very nearly sent me straight out of the story's head space. This is especially apparent in Kenji's dialogue, which lacks the maniacal rambling that peppers his dialogue throughout the VN.

I'll let the discussion go for a bit.

Sea wrote:Comrade, as Khan Bek has convinced me to give Democracy a try.

this sentence is fucking epic

Ah Katawa Kijo... a truely engaging read. the setting was quite well done. I really like the way magic was represented with the different schools and having it bound to science.
the Characters mirage introduced were also very compelling. I especially like Kenji after he was "cured", particulary the scenes with Hanako. i think Hanakenji are an adorable couple.
I'm not sure how i feel about the "Misha has cancer" plot; it is pretty morbid and depressing to have our Misha punished so horribly, (I guess this is what you call break the cutie) but it was what made Hisao try so hard to help Kenji control his powers.

my only complaint about it is that i think it ended too early. I think it had the potential of being much longer with different story arcs.
I also have to ask what went through people's minds when one day Hanako walked into class all scar free out of nowhere

Comrade wrote:my only complaint about it is that i think it ended too early. I think it had the potential of being much longer with different story arcs.

Hm, I think we differ a bit on this. Katawa Kijo, I feel, is exactly the appropriate length for its premise. Anything more and the gimmick begins to wear thin, and here's why: Magic drives the plot. Unlike Harry Potter (or LOTR, or any other fantasy-based large work, take your pick), in which the plot is driven by characters and external events, the story of Katawa Kijo completely revolves around its magical lynchpin. All character and plot development is a result of magical ability. Therefore, the only way to have any serious progression is to have the characters get more and more powerful (or change the feel of the story, but that's a death sentence for another entirely different reason). This is entertaining for a while, but leave it go too long and you force yourself into a Dragonball Z-type scenario (this isn't even my final form!) where everything gets ludicrous.

Katawa Kijo does what it needs to do and leaves it be. Everyone gets a Disney (har, har) fairytale ending, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially considering the fact that this is, essentially, crackfic.

As to the actual story, I rather enjoyed it. It's tightly written as well as engaging and fun.

Also, poor Misha.

Sea wrote:It's finally time!

Alright then, let's see how well I can put this. But first, disclaimer:
I have a hard time seeing the flaws in any work of fiction. The slightest sense of immersion makes it impossible for me to give negative feedback.
With that out of the way, let's take a look at the magnificent Katawa Kijo:

I'll admit that I was wary going in because 1) that's just how I am and 2) MAGIC, as most people know, can easily be done very, very wrong. Kijo did it 100% right. The thought that went into the magical universe and the various aspects of the characters' magic was obviously extensive, and it made each character feel unique, but not overpowered. The concept of Abjury/Amping was entirely foreign to me prior to reading Kijo, but I must say that it was a perfect fit for Hisao. His particular school of magic means that on his own, he is literally the same as any other human. This lets him have magic without being powerful, which means that his mentality is relatively unchanged by the discovery, which in my opinion is a good thing. Besides Hisao, all of the characters 'fit' with their powers, and this managed to tie in well with the story instead of just being an unnecessary aside. So, magic, excellently done, good job.

Next up: ROMANCE. I probably would've started with this if there hadn't been the need to cover magic and its role in the story, because to me, romance is one of the most important aspects of almost any story. So, where does Kijo stand? I'll admit that I forgot to read the first half of the 'pairings' section of the link, and therefore actually didn't know that it was Misha x Hisao until chapter 2. Whoops, my bad. That aside, the romance started in pretty much the manner one would expect it to, which I count as a good thing. Then came the things. All these things. There was the magic, which didn't affect the relationship much, because it didn't get the chance to, thanks to that absolutely wonderful scene in Hisao's room and the introduction of Misha's cancer, which would've been a fantastic story on its own. But the things don't stop there. Next up is the Shizune love triangle, which was played excellently, and also tied into the discovery of Hisao's amping powers in one of the other fantastic scenes scattered throughout this fic. Then comes the whole idea of Hisao having to 'fix' Kenji, which is yet another one of the great things that this story did, in my opinion. I won't say much about Kenji x Hanako besides that it made sense, which is the exact opposite of what I thought it would do. If there was anything wrong with the romance in this book, it's that there wasn't enough of it. I mean, there was a hell of a lot, but it was so good that it made me want more wonderful scenes with Misha and Hisao.

Third on the list is COMBAT. At first I pictured lots. Then one of the characters (I'm bad with names) explicitly said that there wasn't much. This made me a little sad. Then I got to chapter 20 and loved what I saw. Like with romance, I kind of wish there had been more, but unlike romance, I think that more might've lowered the quality of the story, so perhaps this was the best things could be.

Fourth from the top is TROPES. I don't usually care very much about how original dialogue is, etc. etc, but I will say that there were moments where I was literally able to predict what was going to happen next, which means more if you understand that I'm not a very perceptive guy. Some of the aspects of the story seemed like I had seen them before, but hold your horses before they charge at me - it was k. The originality of magic system meant that all of the 'cliche' moments were understood to be almost coincidental. It's like being transferred to a new school and sitting by the window - it might seem like an incredibly overused idea/device, but that's just because things happened to work out this way. The story was real enough that the immersion didn't break because of a few coincidental elements.

Clocking in at number five is WRITING, and before you ask why writing is all the way down at the bottom, it's because it was a nonissue. Writing's the kind of thing where you only notice it if it's bad, and surprise surprise, I didn't notice it. The word choice was superb, the dialogue flowed excellently, and I think I saw 1, just one, typo in almost 50 thousand words. There were probably one or two places where I would've added a comma, but I've learned not to bring those up because I apparently care for commas much more than other people. But, to the point, your writing was so good that I didn't notice it, which is a massive compliment in my opinion.

So, on a scale of 1 to 10,000, Katawa Kijo slams onto the list at FUCKING FANTASTIC, and has been added to the list of things to never forget ever because I love it so much. Super props to Mirage for making one of the best stories I've ever read.

Also, did you see that scene with Lilly in the garden? That was goddamn delicious...

forgetmenot wrote:Everyone gets a Disney (har, har) fairytale ending, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially considering the fact that this is, essentially, crackfic.

As someone who can't stand anything but happy endings (I'm shallow, it happens), this is yet another great facet of this story.

Sea wrote:It's finally time! The first meeting is now in session.

Excellent! The posters before me have all made wonderful points, and Helbereth hit the nail on the head with his comment on Emi's characterization. I flinched mentally, audibly, physically, visually, and olfactorily when I read her asking if Hisao had 'retired' early. Overreaction aside, I continued reading and let myself slip out of 'hypersensitive modern fanfiction critic' mode and into the story itself. The eight schools of magic were interesting and well thought out (though I have a suspicion that they are, in fact, not entirely original), making for a very engaging read even during the training sessions. The concept of magic cubes as training instruments was a point that I enjoyed to no end, making me wonder why I can't have homework that is as engaging and mentally challenging with some sort of award for completing the challenge.

As for the Misha aspect, I was a bit disappointed. Yes, in the end it is clear that Hisao loves Misha and they are a real item, but there wasn't any sort of tangibility to their relationship until her cancer was revealed. Other qualms I have would be the feeling that the end was rushed a little bit, the Mediterranean Council was too weak for their rank, and lack of Evoker-Mutou badassery.

Overall, I would give this story an 8/10. Kept my attention very well after overlooking the pre-release characterizations and made me want more. Up there with my favorites such as TD, Blame, Suzu PR, Akira PR, Developments, and Sisterhood. Definitely worth a second read through. I want to thank Mirage_GSM for his writing and his participation! So, Thanks!

Side Note: Reading 'Mystic Eyes of Disability Perception' beforehand has skewed my concept of the story, making me occasionally want to talk about the whole 'interdimensional warp' thing, but besides being a nice complementary read, it has nothing else to do with Mirage's story. But it was still cool.

Also in case it wasn't clear, the polls for the next work are now open for all those who participate in the discussion. Votes will be recived by sea in pms

Okay, my thoughts on Katawa Kijo.

First off, I am going to skip any characterization issues vis-a-vis KS itself due to the release date of this story. Within the story, my favorite character was definitely Kenji, who's very well written and whose arc showed the most development.

The magical setting was very well developed -- in fact, I'd argue that it was developed too well. For large portions of this story, it felt like the author was using Yamaku and its inhabitants as a vehicle for developing and exploring the magical system, and for that purpose it worked very, very well. What we saw of the magical studies set up the action scenes perfectly as well. Yes, I would have liked more of the plot, but this really would have served well as the opening story in a series based in the same universe. Kind of a shame that hasn't happened.

Not the type of story I'd usually read, but I enjoyed it more than I expected, and it was an excellent example of what can be done in a non-standard setting.

Ah, where to begin? I'm a little short on time right now, so I'll just touch on just a bit of the story for now. The magical setting seems to be the obvious place to start.

All in all, I like how methodical and sciency the explanations for the various schools of magic were. I'm a fan of books series like the Kingkiller Chronicles and Dresden Files, both of which go into depth about the scientific theory of "magic" in their respective settings, especially especially the former. While I confess that the Harry Potter books will always have a place in my heart, these days I'm not really a fan of magic that can just do some random bullshit without any real explanation. That being said, while the information dumping seemed to dominate the fic at times, it seemed appropriate for the school setting.

Somewhat related to the above, I agree with the notion that one of the fic's biggest flaws is that it ended just when it was getting good. As far as characterization, explanation, and conflict go, I was very much reminded of the shounen genre, of which I happen to be a fan of, despite its numerous tropes and cliches. With the rules for magic set in stone (or maybe not?) and the characters more or less given the freedom to proceed as they see fit, I do think that it had a lot of potential for a sequel, one that could focus a little more on characterization since all of the pseudoscience has been dispensed.

Wow, I didn't expect a feedback THIS positive... Let's see...

The dialogue is very rigid, almost throughout. Everyone sort of sounds like Lilly with near-perfect diction and very little personality.

I'm afraid that's the case. Everybody kind of sounds like me^^° It's part of the reason I decided to write my next project with PoV changing from chapter to chapter. I'm not sure the first few chapters of that fic were much better, though...
As for Kenji... I tried to keep his dialogue to a minimum because I knew I wouldn't get it quite right, but his role in the story was too big to leave him out entirely.

i think Hanakenji are an adorable couple.

I'm not sure, but I don't think it's been done before or since.
I kind of like unlikely couples. I think I'm also the only one who ever wrote Shizune X Kenji (though that one is a bit of a crackfic...)

I'm not sure how i feel about the "Misha has cancer" plot; it is pretty morbid and depressing to have our Misha punished so horribly,

That's not quite how I'd put it. As the characters in the story point out, Hisao also has a condition that could kill him any time.
Also, Misha having cancer was one of the top theories here on the forums at the time.

Hm, I think we differ a bit on this. Katawa Kijo, I feel, is exactly the appropriate length for its premise. ...but leave it go too long and you force yourself into a Dragonball Z-type scenario (this isn't even my final form!) where everything gets ludicrous.

I agree. I think if I had tried to drag this out the story would have suffered badly.
What I set out to do with this story was to prove that it was possible to write magic into a KS story without it turning into a crackfic (after a previous attempt failed catastrophically). Originally I thought it would be about half the length it turned out to be, but from a certain point onward the story started to write itself. And at this point the story decided it was finished.

Then comes the whole idea of Hisao having to 'fix' Kenji, which is yet another one of the great things that this story did, in my opinion.

This is a good example. The idea that Kenji would eventually be able to heal was present pretty early during the concept phase, but then I asked myself "Why would he?" So I had to both make him lose his aversion to women (to a certain degree) and present him with a motivation to help them. To find a plausible way to do both was the second hardest thing about writing this story. The romantic scenes almost wrote themselves.

Third on the list is COMBAT. At first I pictured lots...., I kind of wish there had been more, but unlike romance, I think that more might've lowered the quality of the story,

Yes. From the very start I knew that combat would only cheapen the story. I didn't want to turn KS into an action story (that's what the other story that failed did) but stay true to its romance genre. In the end it didn't work out that way entirely, but I'd say it's still about 75% romance.
Actually the fight in the last few chapters was a very late addition to the plot. I was nearing the end of the story and knew how I would resolve Kenji's and Hanako's problems etc. but I realized that if I simply ended the story there it would lack a proper climax... So I rewrote a few parts (I always wrote two or three chapters ahead of what I posted) and added the confrontation at the end.

There were probably one or two places where I would've added a comma, but I've learned not to bring those up because I apparently care for commas much more than other people.

You don't want to know how many commas my editor made me take out...

The eight schools of magic were interesting and well thought out (though I have a suspicion that they are, in fact, not entirely original)

The basic concept of the schools was taken from the AD&D magic system but with some customizations by me to better fit the world and the characters. For example in D&D Conjurers are mainly useful for summoning demons and other creatures to fight for them. That's something I didn't want in my setting. Also, Enchanters can craft magical items. In my mind a magic society that can craft magical items will not be able to stay hidden from normal people for long. It's a pet peeve I've always had with Harry Potter. So I made it clear that in this setting there are no magical artifacts.

The concept of magic cubes as training instruments was a point that I enjoyed to no end,

I will take full credit for that concept, but at the time I was simply thinking of how training magic could plausibly be done. This was the most believable concept I could come up with.

Yes, in the end it is clear that Hisao loves Misha and they are a real item, but there wasn't any sort of tangibility to their relationship until her cancer was revealed.

That's because before that there wasn't any relationship. Hisao was a bit smitten but didn't know if she would return those feelings and his indecisiveness was already apparent in act 1. The revelation of her condition was what allowed the two to finally connect.

the Mediterranean Council was too weak for their rank, and lack of Evoker-Mutou badassery.

Hmm. If you got that impression I failed to make it clear. They are not weak. They are up against a bunch of kids who've been learning magic for a week and they know nothing about Hisao's amplification powers thus they underestimate their opponents. Both Saito and Martine would have been perfectly capable of taking out the whole group, but are incapacitated by a sudden burst of magic they had no reason to expect. Goratschin would have taken them out if not for the intervention of his superior.
Oh, and the only one from the Mediterranean Council is DeGasperi. The others are just part of his delegation.
Earlier I wrote that the Kenji problem was the second hardest thing about writing this story. The final confrontation was THE hardest. I didn't want Hisao and the girls to be strong enough to defeat fully educated mages in direct combat. That's why they are fleeing the whole time, and I still think the help they got from Takeshi was WAY too much, but without it, they wouldn't have even made it that far.
And regarding Mutou... This story is not about him. He get's his badass moment in the flashback when taking out the succubus.

For large portions of this story, it felt like the author was using Yamaku and its inhabitants as a vehicle for developing and exploring the magical system, and for that purpose it worked very, very well.

You're almost correct - see what I wrote above...

I'm a fan of books series like the ... Dresden Files,

I've heard good stuff about that. Thinking about picking it up sometime.

I do think that it had a lot of potential for a sequel...

As I said in the story's thread recently I already had a few ideas for the sequel. I even had a teaser at the end of the epilogue, but as I knew I wouldn't write it anytime soon (and maybe not at all) I asked my editor whether to keep it in, and he said to cut it. I still have it on a USB stick somewhere. Gonna look for it tomorrow and post it here...

Again thanks for all the kind words. If you have questions, ask away.

I had some earlier issues with characterisation, but they went away when I learnt that the work was based on the original Act1-only release. Clearly the extrapolated and interpolated relationships now make a lot more sense in that context. Takeshi's relationships still seem a bit forced, though.

I like the way the schools of magic are pressed into service for this scenario. They provide a framework within which we see certain character facets magnified, as well as making the tale sufficiently different from the original. The expansion of milieu to include a worldwide magic council is both Potteresque and Diana Wynne Jones, to me. It's something I could have done without, but it's used well in here. It makes me think about how the natural scattering of students post-Yamaku can be used for other pieces — how do they fit into a larger world?

Plot points that spoke to me in particular: Healing Hanako as a prelude to curing cancer somehow strikes me as an equivalence of sorts, since Hanako's situation is pretty much seared into our consciousness already. Hisao as an abjurer is so very… Hisao. He affects everyone, but remains himself; he thus remains central and the story remains parallel to the original. Bringing Kenji in as more than comic relief is a major difference, in that sense. KS, by limitation and design, focuses on characters relatively tightly and narrowly; this work reminds me that there is always more to invent or discover in each one.

Sequels to this look possible and welcome. But I suspect that the feels are a little harder to engineer in a relatively magic-rich environment in which Lilly is a diviner.

Mirage_GSM wrote:You don't want to know how many commas my editor made me take out...

I can go and list a few dozen that should be removed, if you like.

brythain wrote:It makes me think about how the natural scattering of students post-Yamaku can be used for other pieces — how do they fit into a larger world?

Well, the ending presumes that Kenji will go on to become a surgeon once he manages to repair his flawed vision, so that's one. Lilly's diviner ability coupled with her apparent linguistic aptitude could lead her to a career as an interpreter. A lot of the others are either too impractical or intrusive to have real-world uses.

Found the teaser:

...

Misha stands on her toes and places a kiss on my cheek. “I know. That's why we're going to come back.”

***

Two shadowy figures watch the small group of people go their separate ways.

“So it is true, there is another Necromancer.”

“Yes. Let's get out of here before anyone notices us. The boss is going to want to know about this.”

Without another word, the two figures take each other's hands, and in the blink of an eye, they are gone, leaving the school-grounds to the students heading their own ways.

There wasn't much planning done for the sequel except that there would have been a time skip of two or three years so everyone would have been in university and that evil necromancer would have tried to get Kenji - either on his side or killed. Probably by abducting one of the girls - maybe Rin... A lot of maybes there. As I said, I never planned that far.

It would probably also have delved deeper into the magical politics which I did plan out in more detail. The only councils that are mentioned in passing during the story are the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, the Pacific and the Carribean Council... Some of you might notice a pattern there...
In all there are seven such councils, one for each school of magic and based not on land masses but on bodies of water. National borders are not directly linked to the respective areas:

The Mediterranean Council governs Abjuration and encompasses most of Europe and Northern Africa. The capital is Rome.
The Pacific Council governs Transmutation and includes the western coastline of the Americas, Japan, China and Korea. Tha capital is Tokyo.
The Caribbean Council governs enchantment and includes the southern US states, Central America and the northern part of South America. The capital is New Orleans.
The Southern Council governs Illusion and includes the eastern part of Africa, India, SE Asia, Australia and New Zealand. The capital is Mumbai.
The Arctic Council governs Evocation and includes Scandinavia, Russia, Mongolia, Canada and Greenland. The capital is Moscow.
The Atlantic Council governs Divination and includes the western part of Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal and the east coast USA. The capital is Rio de Janeiro.
And finally the Gulf Council governs Conjuration and includes most of the middle east. The capital is Dubai.

All this is never mentioned in the story, but it allowed me to insert throwaway comments like Mutou being "one of the most skilled Evokers in the Pacific Council Area", that fling Akane had with an Enchanter from the Atlantic council or Shizune potentially "talking the Caribbean Council out of New Mexico."
This requires much advance planning - I think I set this up only a short time after I worked out the schools of magic, almost at the beginning of the story - but I think stuff like that gives the reader the feeling that there is more to the world than is told in the story and it can be a powerful immersion tool.

Oh, and I don't exactly know what happened in Sao Paulo either. That's kind of a "noodle incident."
But it must have been bad...