Katawa Shoujo Forums

Oddball wrote: I find it hard to see why people would get mad at Lilly for that stuff and not be upset with Hanako and Emi for also holding back some major information.

Like many others have already said, it's quite different.

Besides, like i said in my very first post here their entire story is woven around that very fact that they keep to themselves for some reason, not letting you 'in'.
And as the story progresses you unearth those reasons and try to ameliorate the problems the girls are wreastling with. The entire arc is written neatly around that to give you a very enjoyable story, and it works great.

With Lilly you get the same thing, however only in the final chapter. You never received any hint of this happening, it all just blows up in a very short time.

I can understand Lily's reasons for doing it, her personality, upbrining and all that. But like some others have said, i too do not like the deception she plays here. And i can not defend her for it, only understand her reasoning. Quite frankly, i truly hate people that act like that.

Xanatos wrote:

MegaMoto wrote:Emi has a GOOD reason to not want to get close to anyone and keep things to herself for one.

Uh...A completely irrational fear that doesn't actually make any real sense isn't a good reason.

Understandable to a point (so is Lilly) but not good.

I would never say they are even remotely related, even if you see it that way. So be it.
Regardless, the 2 stories handle it quite differently. As i posted above, Emi's arc is build up around it. Lilly's isn't. One works, the other... not so much.

Merloficus wrote:You never received any hint of this happening, it all just blows up in a very short time.

You actually get a few hints. They're just not that clear on a first run.

There's just a difference between keeping distance or not being forthcoming on the one hand, and misleading/deception on the other. Hanako is in a shell, and everybody knows it. Emi, as a default with people who aren't too close to her (=everybody), pretends her problems away, in the "I'm fine" sort of way that nobody ever takes seriously, but once Hisao starts working his way in, she's pretty honest: "Yes, there are things I'm not sharing, and that's how it's got to be, so stop pushing it, Hisao". Not open, but there's a respectable straightness about it. Lilly, on the other hand...

Man, all this time I've been arguing against my favourite girl.

I have to admit Oddball has a bit more of a point than I thought at first. With Lilly, Hisao never really starts "working his way in" as I put it; he doesn't push, he doesn't act on noticeable problem flags, offer support and an ear. So she never got that chance from Hisao. (That there are reasons for the difference in how he behaves is another matter). I wonder how things would have gone with Emi if he'd been as passive in that route.

But I maintain that the biggest WTF happens before Hisao has even a chance to prove himself in this way: right at the start, when Lilly confesses to him and makes him promise to never leave her while at the same time planning to leave him, or a least considering it. That's what highlights the difference for me. No other girl in KS does anything like this.

It may have been an unplanned, emotional moment (though how true is that, when she's had time to think before he recovered?) - but so what? Nobody put a gun to her head, and even afterwards she has ample time to think things through and do the right thing.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built."

Maybe Hisao should have died at the airport. In some ways, the story would have felt more honest. The whole chase sequence had me staring at the screen in disbelief: "Is this guy a fking retard? You have a cell phone..."

Markus Ramikin wrote:Maybe Hisao should have died at the airport. In some ways, the story would have felt more honest.

What part of not dying makes it more dishonest? And she kinda does do the "right thing" when she tells him about the summons.

Maybe he never got her number. I don't recall him ever getting it...Then again, I don't recall Lilly having a cell. Maybe she did. Maybe he was just stupid but I'd guess he's not exactly thinking clearly with the uprooted life and numerous close calls on account of never taking his meds..

I remember a guy here whose hatred for Lilly's route led him to incessantly blather on about how Hisao died at the airport and everything after is an afterlife-induced hallucination. It was an interesting theory but he ruined it by spouting it out every single time anyone so much as mentioned the name "Lilly".

And she kinda does do the "right thing" when she tells him about the summons.

Lilly doesn't tell him. Akira does.

... which is a pretty big point. Even her own sister had to end up going to Hisao behind her back, bless her.

Xanatos: More honest in the sense that, between Lilly's deception and Hisao's idiocy, the "good end" didn't really feel earned to me. I figured if Hisao needed to have a heart attack/scare to get this relationship going in the first place, and then another one to save it later on, then this isn't a viable relationship. The only reason he got there just in time AND survived that was the authors' say-so; in terms of what he should have been doing in order to ensure his heart doesn't kill him, and for the relationship to succeed, he fails badly. They both do.

Basically I hated every time KS's story used Hisao's having a heart attack/scare as a vehicle for progress, instead of meaningful character interactions. For instance one of my bigger annoyances is that it's impossible to start Emi's route - which otherwise I really like for how much more active, healthy, and funhaving Hisao is in it - without making a really stupid decision, health-wise.

Lilly does have a cell phone actually. Not only is she the one who gives Akira and Hanako Hisao's cell phone number, but in Hanako's route there's also a scene where the three are hanging out at the Shanghai and Lilly's called on her phone with the request to return to school and keep Shizune in check. She probably turned it off after heading for the airport though.

I figured if Hisao needed to have a heart attack/scare to get this relationship going in the first place, and then another one to save it later on, then this isn't a viable relationship.

I don't think that's completely fair. By the time Hisao, Lilly and Hanako took the train to Hokkaido, Hisao was already in love with Lilly and Lilly was already in love with Hisao. The heart scare merely sped things up. Also, it's probably worth mentioning that if it hadn't been for the fact that Lilly's parents gave her that summons around exactly that time, Lilly and Hisao would have gotten together and probably had a relationship that'd be a lot more normal than a relationship with girls like Emi, Rin or Hanako. It took outside (and rather extreme) interferance to highlight the fact that Lilly handles stressful situations rather badly. Hisao and Lilly's relationship had its flaws, but without extreme circumstances it probably wouldn't have been endangered and wouldn't have taken extreme measures to resolve either. One could say the conflict in Lilly's route is a lot more artificial than in several other routes. Or rather it takes extreme situations to bring Lilly's flaws to the surface.

In other words, some people just need a shock, or a kick in the butt to get them motivated to say what needs to be said.

Markus Ramikin wrote:Basically I hated every time KS's story used Hisao's having a heart attack/scare as a vehicle for progress, instead of meaningful character interactions. For instance one of my bigger annoyances is that it's impossible to start Emi's route - which otherwise I really like for how much more active, healthy, and funhaving Hisao is in it - without making a really stupid decision, health-wise.

I wrote about this once a long while back, I remember, but that is also the point of the Emi path for me - that exact fact, that Hisao starts it out by being stupid and provoking not just one but two heart attacks, if you choose to go down her route. Because that initial stupidity of his makes his personal growth throughout the entire Emi arc that much more worth it and amazing, moreso when you consider that in one of the two good endings he manages to catch up to her without suffering any heart problems at all.

The heart attacks at the beginning, that Hisao must experience, are part of what leads towards him becoming, as you said, active, healthy and funhaving. They might mean that you, as the reader, start the story off on a low point and with Hisao initially making stupid decisions, sure. But he learns and that's what makes the payoff that much worth it when he runs faster and faster, later in Emi's arc, and in spite of that does not suffer a heart attack ever again.

But I will agree that this only applies specifically for the Emi path. In her path he suffers them, because he has to risk that possibility if he wants to improve his body. In Lilly's path the times when he has heart attacks continually only serve to point out the hidden problems in what, otherwise, appears on the surface to be the 'perfect' relationship. And yeah, I can certainly understand someone getting upset with his heart attacks in Lilly's path a bit moreso than with the ones in Emi's because of this.

That being said...Lilly's path also happens to be my least favorite so...maybe that's just plain bias talking from me.

It doesn't help that in Lillys path Hisao has a heart attack every hour or so. I'm pretty sure her path has the most heart attacks overall, maybe even if you combine the other paths.

He does, but it's also because of his life style and him adopting a more passive attitude. He forgets his meds once or twice and since Lilly's life is so slow-paced, Hisao also tends to avoid the practice and workouts that the nurse prescribed.

Which is why anyone writing a Lilly continuation fic needs to have her bug him about getting in shape. Preferable by talking to the Nurse/Emi.

After that last stay in the hospital, it really shouldn't be needed for anyone to bug Hisao to improve his health. The guy should have plenty of motivation to make that move himself.

pandaphil wrote:Which is why anyone writing a Lilly continuation fic needs to have her bug him about getting in shape. Preferable by talking to the Nurse/Emi.

She actually does earlier in the route. Remember her origami crane scene?

But Hisao instead tells her to pretend there's nothing wrong with him because he doesn't like people to worry about him or treat him different.