Katawa Shoujo Forums

Man the fuck you, you sobbing pile of custard~

No, seriously, quit overanalyzing everything.

Also, you make it seem like Shizune is some kind of fucking saint, which she is definitely not. Even though Hisao is a massive wanker, he's not much worse than Shizune, really. She has got some serious issues she needs to work out, and that's her own responsibility. Shizune, as a character, isn't going to suffer any major emotional damage from the bad ending. You have to remember that, even though shit like that may hurt, they're still just teenagers, and teenage drama is always exaggerated.

>massive wanker
>teenage boy

Seriously. That's one hell of a tautology.

I'd disagree on the 'issues'. Shizune has flaws. They aren't going to magically disappear like Emi's or Lilly's because of a magical healing protagonist, but through the events of her route she learns to recognize her particular failings. That's one of the things that endears her route to me: she isn't a particularly malleable character.

Also, while teenage relationship drama is almost always a storm in a teacup when you've gained a few more years of perspective, the kind of betrayal in her bad end still wounds those involved quite deeply, and in their formative years to boot. These people haven't developed any emotional callus, so any minor bullshit hurts that much more deeply because of its novelty.

Synthus wrote:teenage relationship drama is almost always a storm in a teacup when you've gained a few more years of perspective, the kind of betrayal in her bad end still wounds those involved quite deeply, and in their formative years to boot. These people haven't developed any emotional callus, so any minor bullshit hurts that much more deeply because of its novelty.

Said it before: Hisao is probably her first serious boyfriend, her first real romantic emotional connection. This could well drive her back into her shell and superglue it shut, just as she was coming out of it.

Synthus wrote:>massive wanker
>teenage boy

Seriously. That's one hell of a tautology.

I'd disagree on the 'issues'. Shizune has flaws. They aren't going to magically disappear like Emi's or Lilly's because of a magical healing protagonist, but through the events of her route she learns to recognize her particular failings. That's one of the things that endears her route to me: she isn't a particularly malleable character.

Also, while teenage relationship drama is almost always a storm in a teacup when you've gained a few more years of perspective, the kind of betrayal in her bad end still wounds those involved quite deeply, and in their formative years to boot. These people haven't developed any emotional callus, so any minor bullshit hurts that much more deeply because of its novelty.

You don't think not being able to comprehend something as simple as the fact that being rejected by someone you love, who then acts like nothing ever happened, might have some sort of emotional impact is an issue? It's not even about the consequences of her actions; the real issue is that she dosn't seem to register the effects before everything starts to escalate out of control. Sure, Misha is partially to blame for this, as well, but you'd expect a "normal" human being to at least become a bit suspicious when the person they just rejected dosn't seem affected by it. Maybe Shizune just didn't take it seriously due to the nature of what Misha was proposing - since lesbian relationships aren't taken seriously in Japan. Still, a good friend shouldn't act like that. Then again, the girl was raised by a lunatic, so I guess you can't expect her to be "normal".

Why are you assuming Misha immediately acted like nothing happened? It's entirely possible she was distant and sad for a while before deciding to accept Shizune's offer to just be friends. There's also the whole 'first time with a boy' line hinting it's probably not her first time overall, so perhaps she's had other girlfriends since then and Shizune assumed she's moved on and gotten over it? It's reasonable that Shizune might have no idea whatsoever that Misha still has a romantic attachment to her.

Pickman's Model wrote: You don't think not being able to comprehend something as simple as the fact that being rejected by someone you love, who then acts like nothing ever happened, might have some sort of emotional impact is an issue? It's not even about the consequences of her actions; the real issue is that she dosn't seem to register the effects before everything starts to escalate out of control. Sure, Misha is partially to blame for this, as well, but you'd expect a "normal" human being to at least become a bit suspicious when the person they just rejected dosn't seem affected by it. Maybe Shizune just didn't take it seriously due to the nature of what Misha was proposing - since lesbian relationships aren't taken seriously in Japan. Still, a good friend shouldn't act like that. Then again, the girl was raised by a lunatic, so I guess you can't expect her to be "normal".

Or to rephrase, Misha propositioned Shizune, got friendzoned, and the two of them tried to carry on as though nothing had happened. This is not uncommon. While Shizune was very invested in the idea of keeping Misha as a friend, Misha wanted more out of it and kept deluding herself by thinking that playing the 'nice guy' would eventually get her a shot at Shizune. Hisao's arrival fucks that up completely for her, and while she's enough of a bro to help set the two of them up, his relationship to Shizune reminds her of all that she couldn't have and she goes all emo.

Now, doesn't that sound a shitload more reasonable?

Synthus wrote:Or to rephrase, Misha propositioned Shizune, got friendzoned, and the two of them tried to carry on as though nothing had happened. This is not uncommon. While Shizune was very invested in the idea of keeping Misha as a friend, Misha wanted more out of it and kept deluding herself by thinking that playing the 'nice guy' would eventually get her a shot at Shizune. Hisao's arrival fucks that up completely for her, and while she's enough of a bro to help set the two of them up, his relationship to Shizune reminds her of all that she couldn't have and she goes all emo.

Now, doesn't that sound a shitload more reasonable?

I still don't think that's reasonable at all. You don't just keep someone around whom you friendzoned. But, as I said, Misha's partially at fault, as well, for still clinging to Shizune like some stalker. It is, however, pointed out in the game that Shizune, due to her nature (thinking everything's a competition, etc), views that incident as a closed chapter; Misha "lost" that "round", so it's on to the next "game" - that is why I'm saying she has got "issues". She does have some development in that regard, since the 2 final arcs/chapters show her at least attempting to talk it out with Misha, even though they end up having an argument. Problem is that those chapters didn't really convince me that Shizune really wants to change, since the development seemed too sudden, like it was rushed in order for the route to end on a high note. Just the impression I got, though.

Pickman's Model wrote:You don't think not being able to comprehend something as simple as the fact that being rejected by someone you love, who then acts like nothing ever happened, might have some sort of emotional impact is an issue? It's not even about the consequences of her actions; the real issue is that she dosn't seem to register the effects before everything starts to escalate out of control. Sure, Misha is partially to blame for this, as well, but you'd expect a "normal" human being to at least become a bit suspicious when the person they just rejected dosn't seem affected by it. Maybe Shizune just didn't take it seriously due to the nature of what Misha was proposing - since lesbian relationships aren't taken seriously in Japan. Still, a good friend shouldn't act like that. Then again, the girl was raised by a lunatic, so I guess you can't expect her to be "normal".

Shizune was isolated by her condition for pretty much her entire life. It's established that she never even attempted to talk to her father for twelve years. How can you expect her to have normal human interaction with others when she can't even consistently communicate with her own family? You're completely ignoring her circumstances. It's not exactly her fault that she can't interact normally with others, and Misha being her best and only friend doesn't change that.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:Shizune was isolated by her condition for pretty much her entire life. It's established that she never even attempted to talk to her father for twelve years. How can you expect her to have normal human interaction with others when she can't even consistently communicate with her own family? You're completely ignoring her circumstances. It's not exactly her fault that she can't interact normally with others, and Misha being her best and only friend doesn't change that.

Yeah, that's why I said I wouldn't expect her to be "normal" in that regard. I'm still allowed not to like her, though. I think pity is the last thing she'd want.

Pickman's Model wrote:Yeah, that's why I said I wouldn't expect her to be "normal" in that regard. I'm still allowed not to like her, though. I think pity is the last thing she'd want.

From my perspective it sounds more like you're bashing her for circumstances beyond her control. Don't get me wrong, she's my least favorite of the KS heroines (though that's not saying much), but I don't think she's at all deserving of so much animosity.

Pickman's Model wrote:I still don't think that's reasonable at all. You don't just keep someone around whom you friendzoned.

If you REALLY friendzoned them then yes, that's exactly what you do... treat like any other friend. If you instead give them the 'friends' line but then ditch them out of awkwardness then you're being a dick.

But, as I said, Misha's partially at fault, as well, for still clinging to Shizune like some stalker.

Has it not occured to you that maybe Misha was honestly trying to just be her friend this whole time and it's only seeing her with someone else now that's reopening the old wounds?

nemz wrote:If you REALLY friendzoned them then yes, that's exactly what you do... treat like any other friend. If you instead give them the 'friends' line but then ditch them out of awkwardness then you're being a dick.

A friendship is never gonna be the same again after something like that. Never heard of a single instance where things worked out. Always ends up causing people way more pain than necessary.

nemz wrote:Has it not occured to you that maybe Misha was honestly trying to just be her friend this whole time and it's only seeing her with someone else now that's reopening the old wounds?

No, I don't think Misha ever stopped having feelings for Shizune, and that's a problem... just look at what happens in the bad ending.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:From my perspective it sounds more like you're bashing her for circumstances beyond her control. Don't get me wrong, she's my least favorite of the KS heroines (though that's not saying much), but I don't think she's at all deserving of so much animosity.

Shizune's inability to hear dosn't justify her way of dealing with people. Her upbringing (or lack thereof) is obviously a big factor, but we don't really know if her family let her down to the extend that some people would argue. It's extremely hard to judge when you're playing the game, since her family are basically joke characters, except for Lilly and Akira, who are only extended family. We can't just conclude either or. However, I don't believe it's all about what environment you grow up in. Loads of people who've had terrible childhoods managed to rise above it without using other people as stepping stones. She only learned her lesson after watching Misha break down, and I think that could've been avoided if she'd been a little more self-analytical.

The way I see it, Misha was never Shizune's "friend", she was just a translating tool that she grew on. That would explain why she just started ignoring her after she got a translator that she actually liked. And before anyone jumps at me, she wasn't doing any of that with that mentality, she just has an extremely broad and warped version of friendship.

Pickman's Model wrote:Shizune's inability to hear dosn't justify her way of dealing with people. Her upbringing (or lack thereof) is obviously a big factor, but we don't really know if her family let her down to the extend that some people would argue. It's extremely hard to judge when you're playing the game, since her family are basically joke characters, except for Lilly and Akira, who are only extended family. We can't just conclude either or. However, I don't believe it's all about what environment you grow up in. Loads of people who've had terrible childhoods managed to rise above it without using other people as stepping stones. She only learned her lesson after watching Misha break down, and I think that could've been avoided if she'd been a little more self-analytical.

I suppose I should clarify that I'm not asserting that her deafness justifies Shicchan's personality or how she interacts with others, I'm merely saying that it explains them. And I'm not entirely sure it would've been possible for her to reach that level of introspection without the prompting of Misha's emotional downfall at the end of Act 3.

Also, I think that completely marginalizing Jigoro and Hideaki as "joke characters" is a little ridiculous. Obviously they don't have any room for development within the arc, but they have at least a modicum of depth to each of them. Hideaki tries to emulate her sister, Jigoro acts as a tsundere father, etc. etc.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:I honestly doubt that Shizune really ever considered her to be a friend. The way I see it, she just kept her around as a translating tool and then she eventually just grew on her, but it was still more like a pet-master relationship. That would explain why she just started ignoring her after she got a translator that she actually liked. And before anyone jumps at me, she wasn't doing any of that with that mentality, she just has an extremely broad and warped version of friendship.

Alright, now this post is so completely outside the realm of rational interpretation that I'm forced to assume that the Doctor is simply trolling.