What you WOULD have wanted to happen in the story

[neumanproductions]

For further example of what that looks like in the game, just look at your choice of talking to Hanako in the library for the first time: It doesn't really change the story much either choice you choose, it just adds a point to your Hanako/Lilly score if you choose the "sorry for interrupting" choice. There's about 10 lines of text that change, if that.

Underestimated by 300%. I'll leave it at this.

Choosing the "right" choice for that scene should net you the "Chocolate" scene later in the game, imo.

Which is going to make getting 100% very interesting if there is that huge of an effect early in the story.

I do agree with all the saying that there is a different Hisao for each write but like I said before it is from their point of view no matter how much the player wants to control the personality of Hisao. You just need to interpret them based on your own preferences. and in the case of KS there are more possibilities of interpretation since there are 5 different baselines.

[Wraith_Magus]

I do agree with all the saying that there is a different Hisao for each write but like I said before it is from their point of view no matter how much the player wants to control the personality of Hisao. You just need to interpret them based on your own preferences. and in the case of KS there are more possibilities of interpretation since there are 5 different baselines.

Maybe, but if we're talking about what is going to "remove the reader from the story", then few things do that more than making the player feel like he is at war with the actions of what are supposedly his characters. I'd point to the scene in Earthbound (Mother 2), where you go to the hotel in the town overrun by zombies, and the music goes odd, there are things obviously wrong, and it's basically obvious enough that even a three year old could see this one coming. "Aha! It is an obvious trap! I'm not so stupid I would walk into such a clumsy trap laid by zombies!" only to have you find that stupidity is the only option. You can try to fight against the story, but there's nothing you can do in the game until you purposefully, knowingly walk into a trap, and then let the game laugh at you for "being so stupid that you fell right into it's trap".

That's the sort of thing that gets gamers to throw their game cartridge out the window, because they absolutely were not in control of their game, and what is the point of a game, if you aren't the one playing it?

[Mirage_GSM]

Actually, I'd say the exact opposite of that: The less choice the "player" of this game has, the less involved the player is in the story.

Well, that's just a matter of personal preference. I enjoy reading a good story, and I don't need to tell Hisao whether to eat meat or fish for lunch.

Yes, maybe if Hisao was his own character, you would have a great point about complaining about not being able to have more input, and that you were just watching actors in a play over which you had no control, but he's not. This is a game where Hisao is basically the vehicle for the player to vicariously experience the story, and where he has a modular personality because he is meant for the players to all identify with him simply because the camera is sitting on his shoulder.

I wasn't complaining about that at all. I think the amount of choices so far is just about right. Also, I disagree on Hisao not having his own character. In fact that he is NOT a blank slate, is one thing that - to my mind - sets KS apart from some other VNs I know in a positive way.
Hisao acts mostly consistently with his character throughout Act 1. No one acts exactly the same way all the time. people get cranky when they are tired, moods change - those are variations that are expected and are sometimes simply needed for the story.
As the game progresses, I wouldn't be surprised if Hisao's personality DID change, depending on the path you are on. He might grow to like training with Emi, once his physical fitness improves, or he might discover his artistic talent on Rin's path. Being in a relationship does change people...
EDIT: And how much did it break you out of the story to have to pick whether you introduced yourself in class or said "hi" or "sorry for interrupting" to Hanako in the demo? Those are both choices of exactly the same mold as the ones I'm talking about. Should we not have choices at all?[/quote]
Those are both choices that do affect which paths will be available to you later on in the game.

Underestimated by 300%. I'll leave it at this.

Is it? Hmm... I guess Yuuko says something different following Hanako fleeing the same, and Lilly going after her the same, but memory doesn't serve to come up with 40 lines of actually different text. Does this count lines that are just repeated in two different scripts? I guess I'll have to load the game up and look through that again...

Both choices will lead to (different) sections of 26 lines each (not counting Hanako's silences), before both paths rejoin. Later on there will be a short divergence in the conversation with Yuuko which is 10 / 8 lines in length. So SC's estimate pretty much hit the mark.

[Darlat]

Why is this turning into a debate of whether having choices removes the player from the story or immerses the player into the story?

[ContinualNaba]

Why is this turning into a debate of whether having choices removes the player from the story or immerses the player into the story?

Because some people look too deep into the mechanics of a cripple-fucking VN.

[neumanproductions]

Why is this turning into a debate of whether having choices removes the player from the story or immerses the player into the story?

Because some people look too deep into the mechanics of a cripple-fucking VN.

Alright, we'll get back on topic.

Just now on the lookalike thread I stated how I really want to see that swimsuit scene either at the pool or elsewhere. The devs teased us with the mentioning of a pool in the beginning and I can already see Misha, Shizune and especially Emi.

[Keita]

Just now on the lookalike thread I stated how I really want to see that swimsuit scene either at the pool or elsewhere. The devs teased us with the mentioning of a pool in the beginning and I can already see Misha, Shizune and especially Emi.

If there is a pool I would like to see how Hanako reacts to it. Maybe, if you go down her path, you´ll give her enough self-confidence so that she shows herself in a swinsuit (I don´t think she would do it normally). That´s something I would want to happen!

[ContinualNaba]

I have to admit, I was a little curious as to why the phys-rehab was so clearly stated to have a pool. Devs are probably planning a Mizugi scene as we speak. I can't see Lilly as one too eager to get into the water (No cane, nothing but the assistance of other people, and Hanako would probably wig out at showing skin. On the other hand, great way to get Hisao to bond with her by guiding her through the water. Plus, young buxom lass with a tight swimsuit and a young man having to be very, very close to her in order to keep her in the right place just oozes a hilarious scenario) and Shizune as loving the entire thing (Apparently a few deaf people enjoy the 'sounds' they hear when they're submerged), being simultaneously a way to show off (Her skills. Also tits) and a way to one-up the other class rep.

Hanako? No. Naked flesh for her man in a small, private bedroom is one thing. Wide open pool? Unlikely.

Emi? Heh, she's probably got prosthetic flippers for winter, in case it's too cold outside. Don't expect anything but laps, though.

Rin would enjoy it, but the prolonged kicking and the reduced bouyancy from being armless (Not to mention she might be concerned about exposing her stumps, although a good t-shirt would maybe cover that, providing it wasn't see-through) would tire her out quickly.

But yeah, swimming scenes are love. Pity it's so hard to get touchy-feely in a public pool.

[Mercutio]

pool scenes would be fuckin' awesome. totally agreed with ContinualNaba, Emi would have flipper prosthetics if she could get them (and I'd spend the whole scene trying not to think of her as Aqualass), but I dunno if Rin's not okay with showing her stumps or what. isn't there a part where Rin sort of flaps her tiny arms, or something like that?

and yeah, I doubt Hanako would do the pool thing, even in a typical high school one-piece like you always see in anime. but you never know, and character development is a good thing.

here's what else I now want to see in the story: HALLOWEEN. seriously, man.

[Captain Lemonade]

Not to mention she [Rin] might be concerned about exposing her stumps

Nah. I think Rin is more the "Hey, wanna see my stumps?" kind of girl.

[Mirage_GSM]

Nah, she's the "Why would you want to see my stumps?" kind of girl...
Or even the "What stumps?" kind of girl.

[Darlat]

I actually think she is all three types to tell the truth.

[Wraith_Magus]

EDIT: And how much did it break you out of the story to have to pick whether you introduced yourself in class or said "hi" or "sorry for interrupting" to Hanako in the demo? Those are both choices of exactly the same mold as the ones I'm talking about. Should we not have choices at all?

Those are both choices that do affect which paths will be available to you later on in the game.

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm arguing for - I AM arguing for different paths, which are based upon the choices you make.

As I said before, there is a difference in how the relationships would work out, and for examples, said that in the Shizune path, you could have a path where you are just as hyper-competitive as she is, and have a high-tension relationship, or you could take an approach more like Kyon or Itsuki relative to Haruhi, and basically be someone who takes a laid-back, philosophic view of what's going on around you while supporting Shizune as she kicks up a storm. Those are two very radically different paths, and would lead to more than just your typical "good end and bad end" type of VN.

It's only other people who said things like that it would only affect what hat you wore in a later scene. As I said before, I want something that would lead to forks in play that almost exactly mirrors the forks in play of choosing the girl whose path you are following, but where you are changing what perspective you take upon the relationship you are pursuing, rather than who you are pursuing.

[G3n0c1de]

As I said before, there is a difference in how the relationships would work out, and for examples, said that in the Shizune path, you could have a path where you are just as hyper-competitive as she is, and have a high-tension relationship, or you could take an approach more like Kyon or Itsuki relative to Haruhi, and basically be someone who takes a laid-back, philosophic view of what's going on around you while supporting Shizune as she kicks up a storm. Those are two very radically different paths, and would lead to more than just your typical "good end and bad end" type of VN.

Is this a good idea? Hell yes.

Can this be implemented feasibly? Probably not.

The amount of writing required for this idea would make each path have at least two paths worth of varied writing. The writers have enough on their plates already. Perhaps if this were a game solely focused on one girl, then this would work. Still, I approve of this idea.

[Mirage_GSM]

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm arguing for...

I'm not. That's exactly what I argued against in my reply to your first post:

The problem is, that having a different personality also changes how people react to you, so you'd basically have to have multiple versions of each scene, which would make the amount of text grow exponentially without any significant increase in story content.
I'd rather have one good long story than five short ones that are basically the same anyway.