Katawa Shoujo Forums

Leaty wrote:I wasn't saying those kinds of transgressions are unbelievable, I think the implied benevolence is. I also don't think those sorts of preoccupations would be quite so formal as they are presented here.

Basically, you can portray the kind of perverse behavior to which you're referring accurately, but it doesn't look like it does in this story, and I don't know that such a story begs to be written.

Yeah, that's fair to some degree. Still, I would attribute the whole scenario more to boredom than to perversity -- they're only discussing who Hisao is going to date, after all, not who he's going to schtup. Also, I was addressing the idea that these people didn't sound like "adults". I think the term you were looking for was "mature adults" . Also, I'd say that the hiring standards for a school for the disabled in Japan are probably below those of a typical school -- and we're not talking about educators, we're talking about medical staff. I mean, look at how fast and loose Nurse is in the VN, and then remember that he's the superior of these folks...

But, I'm off track. You're right that things should be the way you've described, and these actions shouldn't be looked at as "benevolent", but I wouldn't file them under "malevolent" either.

dewelar wrote:the idea that these people didn't sound like "adults". I think the term you were looking for was "mature adults"

Honestly, I don't think they sound like immature adults. I hesitate to make these kinds of assertions, but the fic just tastes to me like it was written by somebody between the ages of 17 and 22, because every character resembles somebody in that age range.

dewelar wrote:Also, I'd say that the hiring standards for a school for the disabled in Japan are probably below those of a typical school

Depends on how you feel about the Yamaku Foundation as an institution. My impression of Yamaku Academy is that it has a very upper-class atmosphere, and the students who are rougher around the edges (Miki, et al) are the exception rather than the rule. I would expect the staff at Yamaku to have the hiring standards of a boarding school, not the standards of... well, a hospital, if I'm being totally honest from my limited experience working in the medical sector.

(Speaking of which, having been one, I could easily imagine CNAs engaging in the kind of behavior shown in this story, but not people with Master's degrees. And Yamaku wouldn't have much need for CNAs.)

Leaty wrote:Does that sound maybe a little more natural? Does that seem like a slightly more interesting and organic way to begin a story? Like, hopefully nobody thinks my writing this was pretension—I couldn't think of a clearer way to illustrate why this story drives me bananas. When other people see a story, I see a bunch of lines that say "[INSERT FLAVOR HERE]".

Honestly, I vastly prefer the original over this. I get your point, but the passage as rewritten comes off as giving itself a hernia from trying so hard. Anyway, being terse is in itself a characterization.

No, one character being terse is characterization. The entire narrative being terse is sloppy writing.

I mean, personally I think every word of that paragraph is an absolute trainwreck, but whatever, different strokes.

Given that the narrative is being told to us by a particular character, it all goes to that one characterization. Unless you're referring to the quoted dialogue and concrete actions of the others.

Literally the entire story is terse. It's narrated and scripted with all the enthusiasm of an excerpt I'd find in the reading portion of a college entrance standardized test.

Like I don't mean to sound vitriolic but I'm genuinely baffled that anyone could possibly advocate for it.

Leaty wrote:Literally the entire story is terse. It's narrated and scripted with all the enthusiasm of an excerpt I'd find in the reading portion of a college entrance standardized test.

Like I don't mean to sound vitriolic but I'm genuinely baffled that anyone could possibly advocate for it.

I advocated for it to be here especially because it hasn't been exposed to the full light of the Leaty disquisition. It isn't a bad horrific derivative slasherfic thing, it's an interesting idea plucked from the depths and not as polished as each chapter of MTtB. Hopefully someone will read your commentary and the comments of your interlocutors and do something better.

I have to take a short break of about a week (ha, right) and so I'll just summarise the state of the present Book Club meeting, on 'Hisao Nakai—the man and his times'.

There are now five pieces (someone nominated a fifth):

Reunion: Hisao and Akira Avoid the Family — by FluffandCrunch
Classroom Game — by Oddball
Observations — by Lost In The Fire
Boundaries — by Silentcook
A Walk In The Park — by Brythain

I feel a little awkward about that last one. But I guess it should pass for something critiqueable, and hopefully when the critics bring the hammer down it won't hurt too much.

Summaries of the first three as discussed/critiqued so far:

Hisao and Akira was sometimes seen as too misleading, a kind of failure of technique, although they appreciated the characters as presented.
Classroom Game was felt to be a little 'off' with regard to how the characters were presented, but it was generally appreciated for amusement value.
Observations drew comments about creepiness, lack of realism and bad technique; the concept was on average mildly interesting.

Comments on the remaining two works can begin at any time; discussion doesn't have to start this weekend, but a few days for reading should be fair. Enjoy!

Leaty wrote:Like I don't mean to sound vitriolic but I'm genuinely baffled that anyone could possibly advocate for it.

Well, I only really complimented the concept, and I think it bears defending, or at least expounding. The largest sticking point here seems to come down to whether or not the the staff would invest emotionally in the students. Realistically? Maybe not. A job is a job, and I'd imagine that anyone who actually gets attached is bound to crack sooner or later. I think you can theorize on pay grades and hiring standards for quite a while, and argue cases in any direction you like.

I also think that it's kind of missing the forest for the trees; Yamaku is fictional, and I'd argue that it was never very realistic from the outset, so presenting an idealized staff to match it's idealized setting is only fitting. If we were going for realism, students and staff wouldn't leap to Hisao's assistance so readily. Shizune would not be allowed to take a verbally delivered course. At least two kids would die in any given year, and the school's reputation would be shot. It would probably be incredibly depressing.

Instead, KS's entire narrative kind of revolves around the idea that virtually everyone on campus is far more sympathetic in general, as most of them have very personal experiences dealing with Some Shit. It's plausible enough that I can accept it. That lens colors these (admittedly stiff) nameless characters just as readily as it does Mutou or Nurse. Sure, it's almost sickeningly positive, and probably nothing more than wishful thinking, but to me, it's a selling point. It's nice to think that such a place could exist, even if it falls apart under scrutiny.

Basically, my mental image of Yamaku is painfully optimistic, and there's a point where I make a conscious decision to cut the realism, and just coast on fluffy, adorable hypotheticals.

So, Boundaries. Despite it having been penned by Silentcook, it bears the stink of a crossover fic. I get the overall concept, and it's at least mildly interesting, but I can't help but feel like, in order to have a full appreciation of the piece, I'm supposed to know something going in that I simply don't. The other comments in the story thread do not help.

Oh, wait, *rereads author note* this was inspired by A22 somehow? Cool, it always makes me smile when I can blame him for something .

Re: Observations

Does that sound maybe a little more natural? Does that seem like a slightly more interesting and organic way to begin a story? Like, hopefully nobody thinks my writing this was pretension.

Nah, not really - though to be honest it IS a bit too wordy for may tastes. There has to be some middle ground between the terse writing in Observations and this
That said, I think fleshing out the characters in a story that is explicitly about background characters would kind of have defeated the purpose^^°
Yes, there were a few cliché lines like "waves of students" etc. but I for one think the story would have suffered if the characters had been fleshed out more.
Thinking about it, I'm not even sure I'd call it a "story". It is a thought experiment - maybe a concept - and I think it is a very interesting one.
And with that it achieves what - to my mind - should be the goal of a one-shot: To explore an unusual idea without getting lost in details.

Yes, it is without frills of any kind, but complaining about that is a bit like ordering chinese take-out (or visiting McD if that's more up your alley) and complaining that you don't get a three course, three stars menu.

Re: Boundaries
Oh yes, I dimly remember this fic, though I didn't remember it was written by SC...
As dewelar remarked it seems strange that he would write something that reeks of crossover to that extent, though I don't really recognize the references - if there are any. If there are, I'd appreciate it if someone could point them out for me.
The story itself felt more like a prologue to something than a one-shot, but writing the complete thing would probably be too much to ask of our chef

Blank Mage wrote:presenting an idealized staff to match it's idealized setting is only fitting

I wouldn't call it "missing the forest for the trees," so much as I'd call it a distinct values difference between us. What you consider idealistic, I consider inappropriate. Personally I won't be convinced (I know, everybody weep) that any teachers, even in the most idealistic of settings, should appropriately have such an perverse interest in the intricacies of their students' lives. If this happened at Hogwarts instead of Yamaku, I'd still object. Hell, if this happened on The Magic School Bus, I'd object.

Mirage_GSM wrote:That said, I think fleshing out the characters in a story that is explicitly about background characters would kind of have defeated the purpose^^°

Why? "Background character" isn't a synonym for "faceless shadow puppet." Background characters can be interesting, too.

Mirage_GSM wrote:but I for one think the story would have suffered if the characters had been fleshed out more.

Whereas I think that it might actually have been a story if the characters seemed less like AIMbots.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Yes, it is without frills of any kind, but complaining about that is a bit like ordering chinese take-out (or visiting McD if that's more up your alley) and complaining that you don't get a three course, three stars menu.

I don't understand—like I am seriously vexed—that people are acting like the laziness of the writer was some kind of stylistic decision. This is one of the most obviously phoned-in one-shots I've ever read on the forum, and even if it hadn't been, the story itself would have still been badly-conceived and vaguely uncomfortable to read. That is my problem with it in a nutshell. That's why I find it so teeth-gnashingly irritating to read.

Leaty wrote:

Mirage_GSM wrote:Yes, it is without frills of any kind, but complaining about that is a bit like ordering chinese take-out (or visiting McD if that's more up your alley) and complaining that you don't get a three course, three stars menu.

I don't understand—like I am seriously vexed—that people are acting like the laziness of the writer was some kind of stylistic decision. This is one of the most obviously phoned-in one-shots I've ever read on the forum, and even if it hadn't been, the story itself would have still been badly-conceived and vaguely uncomfortable to read. That is my problem with it in a nutshell. That's why I find it so teeth-gnashingly irritating to read.

Why assume our author - that you have said yourself is an amateur, like most fanfic writers - is lazy? Just strikes me as a little insulting to be honest. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your meaning.

I didn’t mind the story, to me it was like a deleted alternative camera view on a movie. The characters are as they appear in the VN, nameless and faceless. They don’t need to be flushed out, because then they stop being background characters. Which is what the story is about.
Also I really can’t understand what all the fuss is about in regards to them keeping tabs on the students, it’s not like they where trying to take them to bed. I don’t think it’s unbelievable that students are discussed in the staff room.

On Boundaries: I seriously have no idea what just happened. The first girl is completely lost on me, the second could be anyone, next is Nanaya Shiki, (which I only caught because I love Type-Moon, and he dropped an obvious quote) and the last might be Yukari Yakumo? With dark hair?

Yukari does make sense, here. Borders, bondaries, and gaps are her domain, and she's often portrayed as manipulating reality for the hell of it, so it's in character for her to show up literally anywhere, for unknowable reasons. It's not in character for her to be helpful or forthright in any capacity, to anyone, like, ever.

But Nanaya? He's an alternate persona of an unrelated character who has about as much in common with Hisao as any other VN lead character on the planet. He's a what-if of another character, a hypothetical killing machine version of Tohno Shiki. What.... why is he messing with Hisao, of all people?

What the hell is the common factor, here? I mean, I'm waiting for Batman to show up, or Menma, or Roy Mustang. Why not? It's apparently just a free for all in here! Get Spike Speigal to pilot a Gundam! Throw Blaze the Cat in just i-

Oh wait, SC wrote this?

I'm sorry, that was someone using my account, she's gone now, I'm here, and it was great. I LOVED IT.

Why assume our author - that you have said yourself is an amateur, like most fanfic writers - is lazy?

Well, I can see her point, it's very bland in it's presentation. It's hardly the worst I've seen, not by a long shot, and while I certainly wouldn't say that his writing style is an intentional influence on the tone of the story, I'm willing to look past it and enjoy the premise. Leaty said it before; the writing doesn't stand on it's own, and unlike some of us, her suspension of disbelief simply doesn't support the premise. The first is pretty objective, and the second is just a difference in opinion.