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Megumeru wrote:

slagman5 wrote:
"I think we might actually react just about the same." Excuse me sir, I respect your own personal view and opinion, but I don't know what "we" you're talking about. Speak for yourself and yourself only please.

I don't know how many relationships you've been in, but if you really expect to find a woman that will have no drama, no "shenanigans" and no difficulties, then you're going to come to a rude awakening.

I admit Rin will be a little above average in terms of this, but if I'm truly in love with her and not just trying to have fun getting into someone's pants, then I honestly would be willing to put up with a bit more frustrations if in the end it means we stay together.

Plus, to me, the fact that she's so hard to get through makes it so that when she says "I love you" at the end of the story, it made that have SO MUCH MORE impact versus anyone else who have shown to be able to show affection quite readily. To me, doing everyone else's route, them saying "I love you" got the standard textbook "awwww" from me, but when Rin says it, my heart melted. Which is why I'm so freakin' pissed that Hisao never says it back to her...

Despite being a Shizuist, I find Rin interesting as much as the next Rin-Kin, but I think you misunderstood what I meant.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and I don't give a rat's ass about whether it is about 'love' or not. We, readers, tend to have an elevated perspective when going through the VN since we have that window to stop and think for a good long while of what is going on in the scene to try to understand and soak as much as we can. That, and bias on characters that may or may not have been there in the first place.

All I'm saying is, we can't blame Hisao for being a confused douche in her route. Try putting yourself in Hisao's shoes; I don't know about you, but when a girl acts like 'A' to you at one moment then 'B' the next, you start to wonder whether you did somethin wrong--or right.

Best part is though, Hisao gets around to it and understood Rin right at her art exhibition scene (depending on choice). That redeems him from his fumble all across her route

But that's the thing. You might relate more because of your own personal priorities and personality. And that's completely OK. I wasn't trying to say you can't feel that way, simply saying you shouldn't assume we all would feel that way. I actually have a tendency to perceive what someone is saying or doing more by their intent than their actual delivery. So if someone does respond to me in a way that might seem "cold" or even "offensive" if taken out of context, if I know that's how that person talks and can tell there was no ill-intent behind it, I actually would automatically take nothing negative out of it. My mind just works that way.

And Hisao blows up over nothing. One perfect example of this was when he tries to confess to her, or at least tries to bring up the topic of a relationship to her, and she replies with "No." He pushes her and she actually says that she can't talk about that now... I forgot the actual wording, but to me it was pretty clear there was a time stipulation in it, so for me, right away I got that she doesn't want to get distracted with that kind of "drama" now that she needs to focus on the exhibition. But Hisao acts like she just kicked him in the groin... And I've literally had a girl tell me no before, I didn't snap at her. I persisted and a month later we were dating...

I guess Hisao just isn't a very suave guy, hahaha.

Edit: Oh, and just to clarify, when I said I persisted, it's not like I just kept bugging her. I know that wouldn't work with someone like Rin in that situation. Basically, she told me no, I showed her that I was disappointed/sad about that, but told her it won't stop us from being friends. We continued being friends but I kept trying to make my "smooth moves" on her until one day when we were parting ways, we usually kiss on the cheek (she's hispanic, that's a cultural thing for her) I jokingly asked for a kiss on the lips instead and got it. So sometimes giving the person some space and just respecting their decision would have a good impact on their impression of you, and Hisao doesn't do that at all. When it doesn't turn out the way he wants he throws a fit...

slagman5 wrote: And Hisao blows up over nothing. One perfect example of this was when he tries to confess to her, or at least tries to bring up the topic of a relationship to her, and she replies with "No." He pushes her and she actually says that she can't talk about that now... I forgot the actual wording, but to me it was pretty clear there was a time stipulation in it, so for me, right away I got that she doesn't want to get distracted with that kind of "drama" now that she needs to focus on the exhibition. But Hisao acts like she just kicked him in the groin... And I've literally had a girl tell me no before, I didn't snap at her. I persisted and a month later we were dating...

I guess Hisao just isn't a very suave guy, hahaha.

That's exactly it. Hisao thinks Rin meant something else (when she actually meant that she doesn't want distractions and drama). He thought she's just toying with him and rejecting him--which clearly isn't the case (thanks to reader's perspective advantage )

Hisao isn't a suave guy, indeed. He's downright...normal?
Thankfully, he persisted and understood her and what she really want. That last few scenes in her route gave me a feeling of peace and a 'fresh start'.

But think of it for a moment though...isn't it just like us when we try to understand what's going on in blooming relationship? You wonder whether you did something wrong or right, unintentionally created the drama you wanted to avoid, all that good stuff.

slagman5 wrote:

Khalego wrote:

slagman5 wrote:but if you really expect to find a woman that will have no drama, no "shenanigans" and no difficulties, then you're going to come to a rude awakening.

Breaking News: Megumeru totally voiced the expectation to find a woman that will have no drama, no "shenanigans" and no difficulties. You know...Except he did not even remotely voice such an expectation at all. If you're gonna start off with "Speak for yourself only...", you could at least meet your own demands halfway and not put words in the guy's mouth. As much as taking a sensible viewpoint and twisting it into absurdity might make you feel good, it's a lousy discussion tactic. Also, Oddball's right.

And "I don't tune anyone out" is untrue. Everyone tunes things out. You don't pause to listen to every single thing anyone has ever tried to tell you in life.

Um... right... anyway... My point is that you'll have trouble and frustrations with every woman. Also notice my very next sentence after that is that I acknowledge a person like Rin will have a lot more. So while it's cute that you think taking my comment out of context will help your rebuttal sound better, unfortunately everything is recorded here and anyone can scroll up and see exactly what I meant by that comment.

And obviously when I say tune people out I'm referring to someone who is directly talking to me, you know, like Hisao does to Rin in the story. I don't know about you, but I like to try to stay relevant to what we're talking about at the time... Call me weird, but I do that!

Ooh, snarky. I like.~

See, when one guy says something along the lines of "She's really difficult to deal with, so I see why Hisao was irritated."
And some other guy responds with something like "If you really expect to find a woman that will have no drama, no "shenanigans" and no difficulties...!"
That sure reads to me like words being twisted and shoved into others' mouths. Weird how reading works, eh?

The issue is not that Rin is not perfectly devoid of complications, as your statement suggests. The issue is that she has a far greater degree of complications than the typical person, more than one can reasonably be expected to endure in a long-term relationship which is what makes Hisao's frustration actually pretty understandable. I mean, really, she's practically hit by laser-guided amnesia half the time. The other half is spent rambling and never being clear. The other half (yes, three halves, this is Rin were talking about) is spent being silent and unclear. And did you know that when people try to tell you things, they will be directly talking to you? Because when people try to tell you things, they will be directly talking to you. My statement, which you should perhaps read again, was quite relevant.

Also, that example paints Hisao as a pretty awful guy...Until you realize Rin's been doing the vague-and-muddled schtick for a while at that point. He has every reason to snap. She's been unclear and difficult in all the time leading up to that point. Her intentions with him have remained vague at best. God forbid he demand she drop the paintbrush for a minute and address these things. It's easy to paint the bad guy when we're seeing it from an outside perspective. But inside, directly in Hisao's place, that anger is rather justified.

Seriously, "No." isn't even remotely a good response in that exchange. He didn't ask a yes-or-no question. What exactly is he meant to get from that? (Sidenote: I respond with "No." in places where it makes little sense, but anyone I do that to is informed already that "No.", outside of a yes-or-no question, is roughly translatable to "Fuck off."...So I can see where Hisao's perspective is here. )

At that point, Rin's been leading him on, then ignoring him, then welcoming his advances, then acting like he's not there, and so on and so forth until the point where Hisao doesn't even know if they have a a relationship at all. He's put a lot of time and effort into helping Rin out and just wants to know if they even have a relationship.

And he doesn't even get an answer for that. If she yelled at him or slammed the door in his face, he'd at least know where he stands. He doesn't even get that. She wants him to stay around, but then she ignores him half the time and doesn't talk to him the other half. Then she tells him to go away then comes back when it's convenient for her.

It's one thing to send mixed signals, but she's practically tranlsating those signals into another language before she mixes them.

It's no wonder Hisao gets fed up with her. Now I understand how she has problems communicating, but when Hisao blew up at her, frankly she had it coming.

Oddball wrote:At that point, Rin's been leading him on, then ignoring him, then welcoming his advances, then acting like he's not there, and so on and so forth until the point where Hisao doesn't even know if they have a a relationship at all. He's put a lot of time and effort into helping Rin out and just wants to know if they even have a relationship.

And he doesn't even get an answer for that. If she yelled at him or slammed the door in his face, he'd at least know where he stands. He doesn't even get that. She wants him to stay around, but then she ignores him half the time and doesn't talk to him the other half. Then she tells him to go away then comes back when it's convenient for her.

It's one thing to send mixed signals, but she's practically tranlsating those signals into another language before she mixes them.

It's no wonder Hisao gets fed up with her. Now I understand how she has problems communicating, but when Hisao blew up at her, frankly she had it coming.

Glad to see there's someone who agrees with me. Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one. It would be torture.

Khalego wrote: Ooh, snarky. I like.~

See, when one guy says something along the lines of "She's really difficult to deal with, so I see why Hisao was irritated."
And some other guy responds with something like "If you really expect to find a woman that will have no drama, no "shenanigans" and no difficulties...!"
That sure reads to me like words being twisted and shoved into others' mouths. Weird how reading works, eh?

The issue is not that Rin is not perfectly devoid of complications, as your statement suggests. The issue is that she has a far greater degree of complications than the typical person, more than one can reasonably be expected to endure in a long-term relationship which is what makes Hisao's frustration actually pretty understandable. I mean, really, she's practically hit by laser-guided amnesia half the time. The other half is spent rambling and never being clear. The other half (yes, three halves, this is Rin were talking about) is spent being silent and unclear. And did you know that when people try to tell you things, they will be directly talking to you? Because when people try to tell you things, they will be directly talking to you. My statement, which you should perhaps read again, was quite relevant.

Also, that example paints Hisao as a pretty awful guy...Until you realize Rin's been doing the vague-and-muddled schtick for a while at that point. He has every reason to snap. She's been unclear and difficult in all the time leading up to that point. Her intentions with him have remained vague at best. God forbid he demand she drop the paintbrush for a minute and address these things. It's easy to paint the bad guy when we're seeing it from an outside perspective. But inside, directly in Hisao's place, that anger is rather justified.

Seriously, "No." isn't even remotely a good response in that exchange. He didn't ask a yes-or-no question. What exactly is he meant to get from that? (Sidenote: I respond with "No." in places where it makes little sense, but anyone I do that to is informed already that "No.", outside of a yes-or-no question, is roughly translatable to "Fuck off."...So I can see where Hisao's perspective is here. )

Ah, my bad about the tuning people out thing, didn't bother to go back to read it directly while typing out the reply. But still if that's what you meant, then you're still wrong. I go back to my original statement. If someone is telling something to me, I won't tune them out unless I dislike them. Just because YOU might be like that, doesn't mean I am.

And the rest of what you said are all based on your own personal opinion and views of things, which isn't wrong, but my point stands, speak for yourself. I don't care if "no" means "fuck off" for you, it's not what she meant by it and that's all that matters. Just because that's what you mean don't assume every one else is, or should be, like you. Like I've already said, I perceive things mainly based on intent rather than delivery. And before you try to claim you can't perceive intentions, all I have to say is just because you don't feel like YOU can do it, doesn't mean that nobody can. I actually am pretty good at reading people if speaking to them face to face. Even people who seem a bit in outer space like Rin's character, there is always something that shows through, and with someone as hard to read as her, it would take some getting to know her to be able to pick things out, but it's nowhere close to being impossible...

But anyway, you've shared your opinion. Let's leave it as agree to disagree since I have no intention of changing your mind about it. You'll always feel that way about that, and I'll always feel the way I do about those things.

azumeow wrote:Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one.

That...Uh...That's certainly a way to put it. I don't disagree but...Wow.

I could see Rin as a pal I hang with when I want company but also just want to laze about in front of a TV. A romantic partner? Absolutely not.

@slagman: Yes, it's not what she meant by it...But Hisao didn't know that. You're judging the exchange as an outsider with outsider information. Hisao is not an outsider and he did not have outsider information. With the information he had and considering her muddy-at-best interactions with him up to then, his reaction was justifiable.

In his place (you're newly-crippled, your life and friends and all that was uprooted, you're a teenager full of emotions and bullshit and you're probably horny too, you're frustrated on multiple levels, AND this chick's been jerking you around for weeks!), would you really piece together that a random, contextless "No." meant "I'm busy and don't want to talk about this subject at this present point in time, but we can totally revisit it after the exhibition in a few weeks"? Really?

And the rest of what you said are all based on your own personal opinion and views of things, which isn't wrong, but my point stands, speak for yourself. I don't care if "no" means "fuck off" for you, it's not what she meant by it and that's all that matters. Just because that's what you mean don't assume every one else is, or should be, like you. Like I've already said, I perceive things mainly based on intent rather than delivery. And before you try to claim you can't perceive intentions, all I have to say is just because you don't feel like YOU can do it, doesn't mean that nobody can. I actually am pretty good at reading people if speaking to them face to face. Even people who seem a bit in outer space like Rin's character, there is always something that shows through, and with someone as hard to read as her, it would take some getting to know her to be able to pick things out, but it's nowhere close to being impossible...

Maybe it's not impossible to read people, but they do in depth about how hard Rin is to read. She tends to speak in monotone, she doesn't have much in the way of body language, she tends to take on a vacant stare and is able to completly block out just about everything around her, and o on and so forth.

Now maybe you don't think it's impossible to read Rin, but NOBODY that knows her is able to do so. Don't assume that just because you can read other people that you can read her.

Khalego wrote:

azumeow wrote:Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one.

That...Uh...That's certainly a way to put it. I don't disagree but...Wow.

I could see Rin as a pal I hang with when I want company but also just want to laze about in front of a TV. A romantic partner? Absolutely not.

@slagman: Yes, it's not what she meant by it...But Hisao didn't know that. You're judging the exchange as an outsider with outsider information. Hisao is not an outsider and he did not have outsider information. With the information he had and considering her muddy-at-best interactions with him up to then, his reaction was justifiable.

In his place (you're newly-crippled, your life and friends and all that was uprooted, you're a teenager full of emotions and bullshit and you're probably horny too, you're frustrated on multiple levels, AND this chick's been jerking you around for weeks!), would you really piece together that a random, contextless "No." meant "I'm busy and don't want to talk about this subject at this present point in time, but we can totally revisit it after the exhibition in a few weeks"? Really?

Not really, I'm judging it by what she SAYS. It's not like the VN gave us an insight into her mind, it merely showed us what she said, and the only "thoughts" it had were Hisao's. So there's not too much that we would know from reading it that Hisao wouldn't...

Oddball wrote:

And the rest of what you said are all based on your own personal opinion and views of things, which isn't wrong, but my point stands, speak for yourself. I don't care if "no" means "fuck off" for you, it's not what she meant by it and that's all that matters. Just because that's what you mean don't assume every one else is, or should be, like you. Like I've already said, I perceive things mainly based on intent rather than delivery. And before you try to claim you can't perceive intentions, all I have to say is just because you don't feel like YOU can do it, doesn't mean that nobody can. I actually am pretty good at reading people if speaking to them face to face. Even people who seem a bit in outer space like Rin's character, there is always something that shows through, and with someone as hard to read as her, it would take some getting to know her to be able to pick things out, but it's nowhere close to being impossible...

Maybe it's not impossible to read people, but they do in depth about how hard Rin is to read. She tends to speak in monotone, she doesn't have much in the way of body language, she tends to take on a vacant stare and is able to completly block out just about everything around her, and o on and so forth.

Now maybe you don't think it's impossible to read Rin, but NOBODY that knows her is able to do so. Don't assume that just because you can read other people that you can read her.

"They" don't really, those are Hisao's thoughts about her. He's just really bad at it... Even without any facial expressions (which she does give, he even describes them sometimes), her words alone are not THAT hard to understand. Often times I wonder what he found so baffling... Sure her thoughts are very random, but when it came to the important thingslike her drawing to hope someone understands her, she was actually pretty crystal clear about it, especially in the "neutral" ending where she actually flat out tells him that's why she does it... And Hisao STILL acts like he doesn't understand her...

slagman5 wrote:

Khalego wrote:

azumeow wrote:Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one.

That...Uh...That's certainly a way to put it. I don't disagree but...Wow.

I could see Rin as a pal I hang with when I want company but also just want to laze about in front of a TV. A romantic partner? Absolutely not.

@slagman: Yes, it's not what she meant by it...But Hisao didn't know that. You're judging the exchange as an outsider with outsider information. Hisao is not an outsider and he did not have outsider information. With the information he had and considering her muddy-at-best interactions with him up to then, his reaction was justifiable.

In his place (you're newly-crippled, your life and friends and all that was uprooted, you're a teenager full of emotions and bullshit and you're probably horny too, you're frustrated on multiple levels, AND this chick's been jerking you around for weeks!), would you really piece together that a random, contextless "No." meant "I'm busy and don't want to talk about this subject at this present point in time, but we can totally revisit it after the exhibition in a few weeks"? Really?

Not really, I'm judging it by what she SAYS. It's not like the VN gave us an insight into her mind, it merely showed us what she said, and the only "thoughts" it had were Hisao's. So there's not too much that we would know from reading it that Hisao wouldn't...

It is very easy to judge a character within a story far more harshly, and often unfairly, from outside the story. We have hindsight and story-provided insight (from the story overall, not just the one scene) and repeated tellings and analysis and such on our side. Hisao, and every other story protagonist ever, does not. There is actually quite a bit to be known from an outside reading that Hisao would not know. There's also hindsight bias.



What she SAYS...Is "No."

Now, either this means "No, we aren't in a relationship." in which case she's been jerking and leading him around for weeks for nothing, justifying his anger. Orrrr it means "No." without any context to relate it back to Hisao's words, which means she is continuing to jerk him around, albeit in a different sense, via vagueness and difficulty. Again, this would justify anger or at the least, frustration.

azumeow wrote:Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one. It would be torture.

Then again, every time one of my cats isn't well or has died, I feel terrible.

Khalego wrote: It is very easy to judge a character within a story far more harshly, and often unfairly, from outside the story. We have hindsight and story-provided insight (from the story overall, not just the one scene) and repeated tellings and analysis and such on our side. Hisao, and every other story protagonist ever, does not. There is actually quite a bit to be known from an outside reading that Hisao would not know. There's also hindsight bias.



What she SAYS...Is "No."

Now, either this means "No, we aren't in a relationship." in which case she's been jerking and leading him around for weeks for nothing, justifying his anger. Orrrr it means "No." without any context to relate it back to Hisao's words, which means she is continuing to jerk him around, albeit in a different sense, via vagueness and difficulty. Again, this would justify anger or at the least, frustration.

Hindsight doesn't come into play here since this is the things I thought while I played it through the first time and reading his responses to her...

Speaking of hindsight, Rin doesn't leave it at "No," she does elaborate it when the fact that she doesn't want to talk about that at that moment. Her statement had a stipulation of time and there was nothing unclear about it. I understood what she meant the first time I played through it. Here, if you don't believe me, this is right after she says "No" to him:
I don't know about you, but to me, the first time reading it, at that moment of reading it, it was pretty clear she doesn't want to be distracted with that. If she meant "No" forever, the word "now" would never come into play. When a girl tells you they don't want to talk about something "now" you leave it alone and give it time. Push them about it at that moment and you're basically just throwing gasoline on a fire...

Edit: And speaking of hindsight, if anything, it's made it even more in favor of Rin. She says she "can't" talk about it now. She doesn't say "don't want to" which further implies that she doesn't feel in control over the circumstance that makes that topic off limits...

Edit 2: WOW, I am loving this hindsight stuff, I continue reading, and it appears that even Hisao admits that she showed some emotion there, and ADMITTED that he just couldn't tell what. Then he describes her as: "Her shoulders slump melancholically as her foot works the canvas in front of her.

She won't let me see her face and I know it."

And then right after that, he's about to leave and she stops him and asks him to come back tomorrow. I don't know about you, but she's showing plenty of signs that she regrets turning him down, and then even reveals to him that she wants to keep seeing him. I've ended up dating girls that hid the fact that they liked me much better than Rin did in this story...

slagman5 wrote:I guess Hisao just isn't a very suave guy, hahaha.

Hell, I think he does just fine. When I was his age, I was nowhere near as good with girls as he is. And I didn't even have the excuse of having my life ripped out from under me.

azumeow wrote:Rin's like a cat. I enjoy cats, but jesus christ I could never have a romantic relationship with one. It would be torture.

This is the most pithy assessment of the situation I've seen.

Also, semi-relevant username.

Megumeru wrote:Wouldn't you if you have to deal with her strange shenanigans? It's like an on-off relationship and indication throughout her route with the codeine and the things in the atelier.

The next day, she acts as if nothing happened. I don't think we can really blame Hisao entirely for his confusion since I think we might actually react just about the same.

It would be frustrating for sure, but she explains why she does it fairly well. It's certainly not a conventional explanation that she gives, but it's one that makes sense pretty much immediately if you're putting minimum effort into listening to her.

She basically says she has too many things going on at the moment to go steady in a full-on relationship. Remember, she specifically told Hisao not to show up again, and when he did, he walked in on her masturbating and helped her finish on his own accord basically because he felt awkward not doing anything. She allowed it so it's not entirely his fault, but it was fairly apparent that she was hoping something like that wouldn't happen until after the art show, and when it did she didn't want it to happen again until she was less busy with her work.

Also, people are quick to point out that Rin has been doing her muddled thing for a long time, which justifies Hisao snapping... except he knew exactly what she was like when he decided he wanted to be with her, and it was apparent soon afterwards that she wasn't going to be changing that any time soon. Why would he suddenly expect her to get crystal clear for him? It makes no sense to actively pursue a relationship with somebody that you know has a major trait that annoys you and then get mad at them for not adjusting that trait to be more convenient for you.

There's compromise of course, but he doesn't seem interested in that. He wants clarity, he wants it right then, and then he blows up when he doesn't get it. Before then, he doesn't exactly make it clear that he wants Rin to work on being more clear either. The very same conversation he first confronts Rin about her "ridiculously confusing" way of speaking is the conversation he chooses to loose his cool after.

That gives Rin roughly... no time at all to make adjustments. During the most stressful period of her life, one that is visibly draining her. One that Hisao pushed her to put herself in despite clear signals that she wasn't interested.

He did it because he wanted the best for Rin, so it's not like he's evil, but it's fairly apparent before the art show even becomes an issue that she herself realizes that it won't be good for her and the way he basically says, "This is what I'd want if I were you so you should have to want it too" doesn't exactly come off as super respectful of her wishes. Heck, it almost mirrors Nomiya, the difference being that Nomiya actually was in it almost totally for himself while Hisao at least genuinely cared about Rin's future.