Katawa Shoujo Forums

OtakuNinja wrote:

Megumeru wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:I agree with that. And his face when he's fondling Hanako's brests...

Its normal to have dat face--he's a young male with raging hormones, of course he'll put up a something that says he'a enjoying every bit of the moment.

I don't like that face. Reminds me of one of my teachers. He always wore that smile...

I bet he wished you were Hanako to his Hisao...

arc7angel wrote:*snip*

Maybe you're just jelly it's not you but the guy called Hisao

I kid, I kid; your opinion is understandable...though that doesn't mean I ageee with it entirely.
1-2) There is no possible hint that suggests Hanako will commit suicide nor will she. Hisao may have destroyed her in the bad endings, but in both regards it either ends up with her extreme distancing or stagnation.

In the good ending, however, she changed for the better by going out of his shell; this is in part thanks to Hisao's actions. In Lilly's route, she change for the better in part not wanting to be the 'third leg' in Hisao and her BF's relationship and thus strive for independance.

...pretty convenient. I was expecting a Hanako vs Lilly at some point back then
But Hanako's a good girl, so on to the next...

3) I agree on the premise that Hisao 'destroys' Rin in her route, but I do not entirely support your perspective on it. Hisao can be seen like you and me sometimes; a fumbling idiot trying to figure out another person's character and help them anyway they can not knowing the limits or if it might harm him/her. Rin wants to smoke? He'll help her--its for her art, so it must be helping her. Its this near-destructive cycle in Hisao's rather caged thought that almost plunge her deeper into the abyss. Good thing is, he realized this near the end of her route and reach out to pull her out and redeem himself. Not to mention she came out of her shell and start as a new person at the end.
In Emi's route, Rin still faces the problems she faced from the abominable art teacher, but she remains the same Rin: still confused and engmatic as ever, though this time she wouldn't want to try anything else since doesn't have anyone that supported her almost feverishly. Nomiya doesn't count.

4) someone already laid their answers on this one, so I'm not going to elaborate any further. Still, I can see where your view is coming from; I do want to slap Hisao for some of his decisions, but other than that would we do the same under the situation with tremendous pressure?

Besides, nothing beats Nomiya. NOTHING!!!!

On a side note... when you cheat on Shizune with Misha... Shizune never finds out and despite being one of the worst things you can do, other events are the reason you get the bad end? Someone explain to me about that.

Hisao is a teenager, and on a pretty hard position/situation at that. I think that addresses most of the "Hisao is a dick" comment at their base.

arc7angel wrote:On a side note... when you cheat on Shizune with Misha... Shizune never finds out and despite being one of the worst things you can do, other events are the reason you get the bad end? Someone explain to me about that.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you asked on the latter part, but I can give a shot on the former.

Shizune never finds out directly, but she knows its happening; how?

1) Misha avoids Shizune and Hisao further partly due to her own feeling of guilt.
2) Hisao avoids Shizune driven by guilt and (tag some of his misdirected way of thinking) believed Misha should spend more time with her.
3) When both Misha and Hisao's thought-processed combined, you have both parties avoiding Shizune.
4) She caught sense of it--more or less--and eventually decided to cut-off relations from both of them in order not to harm them any further (in turn, it drove her down into solitary exclusion as there is almost no one in Yamaku who can communicate with her)

Also, Shizune is hinted to be able to read lips and may have caught wind of Misha and Hisao's conversation.


Is Hisao responsible? You can say he's the catalyst that brought upon the destruction of the trio; what the hell, hero? No, wait. What the hell player???

arc7angel wrote:On a side note... when you cheat on Shizune with Misha... Shizune never finds out and despite being one of the worst things you can do, other events are the reason you get the bad end? Someone explain to me about that.

She doesn't find out, however Hisao sleeping with Misha results in them both acting uncomfortable and awkward around her.

Now towards the end of the game, even in the good ending, Shizune has started to question several things about herself. Her ability to communicate with others, whether or not she's been using Misha, if she's a good leader or not, and even if she's a god person. Keep in mind she also had an argument with Misha (off camera somewhere) and all her attempts to make it up to Misha and cheer her back up have met with failure and rejection. With Misha and Hisao avoiding her, she starts to feel it's her fault. She's asking herself am I a good person and a good friend, and all evidence is telling her that she's isn't.

Also, Shizune is hinted to be able to read lips and may have caught wind of Misha and Hisao's conversation.

Hisao wonders if she can at one point, but it''s never really hinted that she actually can do so. The only time he brings it up is when she's acting like she knows more than she should, but when they were talking, they had their backs to her so she wouldn't have been able to read their lips anyway.

Shizune never finds out directly, but she knows its happening; how?

I don't think she actually does find out. This actually ties well into her major problem except in reverse. It's brought up several times that she can't just simply come out and say things like other people can. In the case of her bad ending, she gets to know what it's like to be on the other side of that. Hisao and Misha have the problem this time and neither is speaking out. She simply has to guess at what's wrong, much like they're almost always doing with her, and like what often happens when Hisao is trying to read her mind, she doesn't quite get it right.

Is Hisao responsible? You can say he's the catalyst that brought upon the destruction of the trio; what the hell, hero? No, wait. What the hell player???

I wouldn't say it's totally his fault. Yeah, hes' the one that puts the final nail into the coffin, but Misha and Shizune's relationship is already heavily strained at that point and was never really that healthy to begin with. I actually kind of wonder what happens to those two by the end of the school year if Hisao doesn't get involved with them.

Oddball wrote: I don't think she actually does find out. This actually ties well into her major problem except in reverse. It's brought up several times that she can't just simply come out and say things like other people can. In the case of her bad ending, she gets to know what it's like to be on the other side of that. Hisao and Misha have the problem this time and neither is speaking out. She simply has to guess at what's wrong, much like they're almost always doing with her, and like what often happens when Hisao is trying to read her mind, she doesn't quite get it right.

That's the point.

I didn't mean that she found out about it; she knows something is going on between them behind her back, she thinks there's something in regards to Hisao and Misha, but the majority of her conclusion came from her own guess-work and assumptions which led us to the bad ending.

Oddball wrote: I wouldn't say it's totally his fault. Yeah, hes' the one that puts the final nail into the coffin, but Misha and Shizune's relationship is already heavily strained at that point and was never really that healthy to begin with. I actually kind of wonder what happens to those two by the end of the school year if Hisao doesn't get involved with them.

I say 'strain' to be a strange word to use in this occasion. I believe the moment things became haywire is when Hisao actually enters into a relationship with Shizune--that, I believe, is when its coming down.

If I think about it, the relationship between Shizune and Misha is more or less like a dormant bomb. It will remain stagnant with Misha being 'happy' just staying in the friendzone while Shizune remains clueless of what is happening around her. It takes one trigger, a catalyst or what-not to revive the 'bomb' and start the countdown to destruction--in this regard, Hisao have the honors to be that 'fuse'.

How I see it, Misha believes that as long as she can be with Shizune she'll be happy. But when she realize that Shizune starts to spend more and more time with Hisao than with her (as oppose to him not joining the SC in which Misha can hog Shizune for herself), she starts to think the need to forget about this 'lost love' (hence, she cut her hair. In cultural reference, doing so means you're getting rid of the old and moving for the new). When that doesn't work, she believes it's a good idea to distance herself and give Hisao and Shizune some space together while at the same time she could forget about her lost love. With the absence of communication between the three of them, things are bound to explode and everything is becoming a lot more volatile.

And so, the fuse was lit and the countdown to destruction begins for the three of them; it's M.A.D.: Mutually Assured Destruction.

So I think between Misha and Shizune, everything would resume as normal as it can be if Hisao never joins the group. It's sad as it is, but the conclusion is worth the price of admission.

...
...damn I really need to work on how I phrase things

So I think between Misha and Shizune, everything would resume as normal as it can be if Hisao never joins the group. It's sad as it is, but the conclusion is worth the price of admission.

You make a good point in that Shizune's and Misha's relationship is somewhat of a dormant timebomb and in Shizune's route, Hisao's relationship with Shizune causes it to activate. But personally, I don't think it'd remain dormant forever if Hisao had shied away from the student council duo during that first week. Like Oddball said, Shizune's and Misha's relationship was already rather unhealthy to begin with. Misha has unrequited feelings for Shizune, yet is still around her nearly 24/7. Most of the time, she can pretend things are okay. Maybe even fool herself at times into thinking Shizune might someday come around. But the fact remains that at the end of the school year, they'll end up being separated.

I think the closer graduation would get, the more Misha's world would start to unravel. After all, to Shizune, graduation would merely be the step to a new set of challenges and thus she welcomes it. To Misha, graduation means the end of her time together with Shizune which has been pretty much the center of her universe, and thus she dreads it. Shizune looks forward to moving on. She takes the separation-part in stride because it's inevitable anyway and at least they made plenty of good memories. Misha is terrified of moving on. Shizune's casual attitude about it is offensive to her.

In my eyes, this is one dormant bomb that will start ticking again eventually, whether Hisao joins the student council or not.

Guest Poster wrote: In my eyes, this is one dormant bomb that will start ticking again eventually, whether Hisao joins the student council or not.

true, that is a viable point.

As unhealthy as it is Misha sees Shizune as the center of her universe. How I see it, Misha spends most of her school year with Shizune (maybe even with the possibility that she's the only friend she has) and I say it's a slim chance she would reveal her world to Shizune with the risk of disrupting the balance and harmony she was "satisfied" to begin with; it's like knocking down your house three days before a hurricane. You may be able to rebuild a better shelter, but the risk of actually losing it is far greater than gaining it. Instead, she would most likely keep herself quiet--probably until graduation or post graduation to cling unto whatever time was left in their high school life.

After that, what comes next post-graduation depends on how Misha cope with everything. Will she stick with Shizune? We don't know. Will she stay in touch? Maybe. Or, will she explode and run through a path of destruction which results with her ending up hanging in the ceiling of her home? Possibly.

There's a lot of possibilities on what is the fuse or the trigger of this dormant bomb, but yes I agree on this one.

It will start ticking again eventually. But whether or not it starts or defuses itself depends on Misha and her reaction alone. Hisao's involvement in the student council is practically the catalyst or the fuse that starts the countdown way faster than anticipated.

have a cookie

Misha and Shizune's relationship is already heavily strained at that point and was never really that healthy to begin with.

Indeed. One of the key points of Shizune's route is that her friendship with Misha is not at *all* healthy, at least from Misha's side of things. A big factor is that of perspective. From Shizune's side of things, she has a friend who came onto her once, but they moved past that and now everything's hunky-dory. From Misha's side of things, she's trapped in the FriendZone - one of the single most painful places a person can ever be - and she has no way to deal with it. She (seemingly) has no one to talk to about the situation except for Shizune herself, and she doesn't dare say anything to her for fear of squicking Shizune out and potentially losing that friendship.

Being stuck in the FriendZone is never a good thing, but it becomes infinitely worse when that person is your *only* friend. You end up in an extremely unhealthy "can't live with, can't live without" situation. Think about it - you're full of sadness and anger and resentment that the person you care about doesn't feel the same way about you. Normally, the thing to do would be to either get over your romantic feelings and move on (healthy), or, failing that, cut ties with the person entirely to at least spare yourself the constant emotional torment (less healthy, but still helps avoid self-destructive feelings).

Misha does neither of these things - she accepts Shizune's friendship even though it's not what she really wants, because it's the closest substitute she can get. Now Misha is trapped in a perpetual 'second place' scenario - one where she *almost* has what she wants, but not quite, and is constantly reminded of that fact. She is, in effect, in denial - taking what emotional scraps she can get and pretending that the situation can survive as it is, not admitting to herself that it can't. As was mentioned before, their present relationship is a dormant bomb just waiting to blow. If Hisao hadn't shown up, the end of the school year would have undoubtedly had the same effect.

The cheating on Shizune with Misha scene is important from a writing standpoint because it represents Misha's tormented mindset and the way in which she goes about dealing with it. Misha's attempt to sleep with Hisao is a very unhealthy way to deal with the emotional stress she's feeling - if you agree to it, then you're basically helping Misha to hurt herself. Misha feels even worse about things, Hisao starts to feel miserable too, and that compounded negativity prevents him from helping both Misha and Shizune with their respective problems when they need it most.

Plus, you know, it's also a sort of karmic payback for cheating on your girlfriend. The lesson is simple, kids - cheating is considered a bad thing for a *reason*. You're violating a person's trust in you and undermining the emotional intimacy necessary for a relationship to stay strong - you have no one to blame but yourself when it inevitably falls apart.

If, on the other hand, you stop Misha's advance cold, then it shows how Hisao is dedicated to both of his friends - to Shizune by not fucking her best friend behind her back, and to Misha by not allowing her to do something that is ultimately emotionally self-destructive. Hisao is strong for both their sakes - he's the pillar of the trifecta that refuses to crumble when both of the others are unsteady, and he uses that strength as the push-off point to help both of the people he cares about deal with their problems in a healthy way.

Hisao came to school in a dark place - depressed, angry, scared, and lonely. Shizune and Misha stepped in and helped him, by giving him friendship, love, and a place to belong - giving him the warmth and stability he needed to recover emotionally. By the end of the scenario, *they're* the ones who now need a helping hand, and your decision at that single, crucial juncture determines whether Hisao uses what he's learned to respond in kind, or throws his newfound happiness away in exchange for what is probably the most unsatisfying tryst in the history of sex.

To put it simply: think with your heart, not with your (lower) head.

Besides, why would you *want* to cheat on her? I mean, damn, just [shimmie=2270]*look* at this[/shimmie]. If I was dating this girl, I wouldn't be able to keep my hands off her, much less give a rat's arse about anyone else.

Is there any character that you really hate seeing?

Oh, right...I forgot, there was a thread topic to address in here somewhere.

Well, it's not really *hate*, but every time Kenji pops up, I reflexively say "oh, lord..." in that exasperated way that Leela does on Futurama...

Oh...
Well sorry not too big of a Shizune fan here ^^;

I was really confused at everything that had happened in her route and I really don't feel like going through it again...
although I run through Rin's route once a week.
Just for the quotes.

But still, Shizune's path felt like the longest to go through, and the most random character - Jigoro, who can supposedly enter the school with a samurai sword - feels at times just another Kenji but obsessed about himself and Shizune. Rather than just obsessed about anti-feminism.

DrNonookee wrote:
Besides, why would you *want* to cheat on her? I mean, damn, just [shimmie=2270]*look* at this[/shimmie]. If I was dating this girl, I wouldn't be able to keep my hands off her, much less give a rat's arse about anyone else.

b&4 opinions

DrNonookee wrote:Besides, why would you *want* to cheat on her? I mean, damn, just [shimmie=2270]*look* at this[/shimmie]. If I was dating this girl, I wouldn't be able to keep my hands off her, much less give a rat's arse about anyone else.

...Point taken.

At the beginning of the game, I honestly wished there was a chance to backhand Kenji. When Lilly was in Japan and Hanako was freaking out over her birthday he was fairly alright to have lunch with, and the several times he showed up afterward he was tolerable.

Misha got a bit annoying for a while. It'd be interesting to play Shizune's storyline just so I can have a conversation with her without having to deal with Misha.

FoxtrotZero wrote: It'd be interesting to play Shizune's storyline just so I can have a conversation with her without having to deal with Misha.

Misha's still around a lot in that one but much less annoying than usual. Go for it.