Katawa Shoujo Forums

Helbereth wrote:

Reese8 wrote:we don't know anything at all, IIRC, about 3-1

My headcannon would like to dispute this remark:

Leaty wrote:"Mean/Average Time to Breakdown," or "MTB" is a term used in engineering circles, referring to the amount of time a machine is expected to function before it inevitably stops working. It can also be said to be synonymous with the "Life Expectancy" of a product. As Hisao's Act I is called "Life Expectancy," I wanted a title suggesting a world where everything was seemingly the same, but there were minor, obvious changes, like the wrong person having a heart attack.

Thank you for the information! And, as someone who will in the fall start studying to be an engineer, I now like this story even more.

Leaty wrote:It's harder to call me out on my characterization of Iwanako because she's such a cipher, but even so I'm still kind of puzzled that nobody's really commented on the liberties I've taken with her (e.g., she's a lot more logical and jaded than perhaps she needs to be based on what we know of her, and nearly-fatal heart attack notwithstanding, from Hisao's perspective she certainly seemed much much sweeter in the games) or told me I'm making Shizune too much of a bitch (which every author who puts her in a fic needs to consciously avoid.) I would have thought people would be confused about my decisions about Aoi and Keiko, as well, but apparently a lot of people don't realize they're canon; one review on fanfiction.net praises me for "for making an efford(sic) to create so many Interesting new characters" even though Momomi is the only OC in my fic.

Well, I'm not very good at this sort of thing, but I think that it doesn't apply in Iwanako's case, anyway. The game, as you said, tells us very, very little about her, and what little we do know is her public face and, later, a letter that she wrote (and could have rewritten many times to get right) after having been influenced by Hisao's heart attack. Here, we see things from Iwanako's perspective, and even that only really matters, it seems to me, prior to her heart attack due to the impact of said event on her.

Leaty wrote:Well, I mean, look at this…so I try to keep my mouth shut.

Wait, that's why there's such a widespread bias against OCs? Sigh. I could never figure that out before… I mean, personally, I consider a story using OCs instead of canon characters more likely to be good, since there's much less risk of bungling canon characterization, but of course that view relies on the hope that authors will actually try to make good OCs.

Leaty wrote:Sounds like you need to read Tomorrow's Doom.

Added to reading list.

Leaty wrote:I wouldn't expect to see many more whole-cloth OCs in this fic other than Momomi; the reason that my fic appeals to me is because I like teasing out the new interactions with canon characters that result from having a different protagonist (that's also why I love the interactions between Aiko and Shizune in TD.) Momomi is kind of a load-bearing OC in that she needs to exist as a result of Kenji being unusable for obvious reasons. Of course, Molly, Aoi, and Keiko are practically OCs...

Well, you've not rung any OOC alarm bells in my head so far, so I look forward to seeing where you take this.

Leaty wrote:Sounds like you need to read Tomorrow's Doom. It does everything you're asking for (and I believe may have even been partially inspired by this thread? Helbereth?) I will probably never elucidate on 3-1 in my fic precisely because I don't see any point to reinventing the wheel. Helbereth's done a great job with 3-1 and anything I could write would just be derivative.

I wouldn't expect to see many more whole-cloth OCs in this fic other than Momomi; the reason that my fic appeals to me is because I like teasing out the new interactions with canon characters that result from having a different protagonist (that's also why I love the interactions between Aiko and Shizune in TD.) Momomi is kind of a load-bearing OC in that she needs to exist as a result of Kenji being unusable for obvious reasons. Of course, Molly, Aoi, and Keiko are practically OCs...

To be honest I'm glad I started reading TD before I got too far into writing my own route, simply because it knocked the realization into my head that there's a wealth of potential for OCs in the KS world. Not only students, but also characters that exist outside the Yamaku bubble (adults, mostly). I've been silently kicking myself for not utilizing that more in the first two acts.

But, much like Leaty feels about Momomi, I'm sure, I feel like having too many load-bearing OCs can be detrimental to the effectiveness of a work of fanfiction simply because it is a work that's based on existing characters and an established story (or in the case of KS, several established stories). TD is most definitely the exception to this generalization (congrats on walking the line, Helbereth—you're a braver soul than I), but I've also read works that introduce way too many OCs way too quickly (even if they're not technically Mary Sues) and end up suffering greatly for it. It's a thin line; you have to know just how far you can go.

Also, to produce a whole-cloth OC is hard, at least if you're thorough. I spent over two weeks developing Kagami's personality, physical traits, and backstory before I wrote a single word of the story. Now, of course, writing her is the easiest part of the route.

Which, leads me to:

Leaty wrote:Even so, there is one aspect of a work in progress that any reader can criticize without worrying about looking like a jackass later: characterization. If somebody is acting out of character, they should be policed on that, because canon characters staying in character are basically the glue that holds the whole concept of a fanfic together. You've mentioned before that writing Hisao is the hardest part of writing your pseudo-route, and that's a good thing, because we all want people to read and enjoy our fics, and nobody's going to do it (except, well, kids) if the characters aren't acting like themselves.

I was called out on this for several chapters earlier on, and I have to say that's the hardest lesson to learn when writing fanfiction. Now, I'm almost pedantic about keeping established characters acting like themselves, to the point where I've scrapped two or three (probably more) whole chapters because I didn't like the way Misha was reacting to something, or how Emi was talking to Rin, or a thousand other things.

Leaty wrote:It's harder to call me out on my characterization of Iwanako because she's such a cipher, but even so I'm still kind of puzzled that nobody's really commented on the liberties I've taken with her (e.g., she's a lot more logical and jaded than perhaps she needs to be based on what we know of her, and nearly-fatal heart attack notwithstanding, from Hisao's perspective she certainly seemed much much sweeter in the games)

True, but all of her behaviors make sense when you consider the fact that the nearly-fatal heart attack isn't the least bit nonwithstanding. In fact, (and this is also true for Hisao) it's a fundamental part of who Iwanako is now. The Iwanako of MTB is vastly different than the one who wrote Hisao that letter in the parallel KS universe. The fact that you're conscious of minute details concerning a character who appeared for a whole minute in canon... well, that's the kind of stuff that's really only apparent to the writer of a route. I'm certainly not going to perform a full literary work-up on a piece of fanfiction, even if I have enjoyed reading it as much as I have MTB. Plus, when you consider the gross errors made in other pieces of writing... it's hard to feel justified being nitpicky about microscopic character inconsistencies that may or may not even exist.

Leaty wrote:Even so, there is one aspect of a work in progress that any reader can criticize without worrying about looking like a jackass later: characterization. If somebody is acting out of character, they should be policed on that, because canon characters staying in character are basically the glue that holds the whole concept of a fanfic together. You've mentioned before that writing Hisao is the hardest part of writing your pseudo-route, and that's a good thing, because we all want people to read and enjoy our fics, and nobody's going to do it (except, well, kids) if the characters aren't acting like themselves.

Somehow I missed this in reading the other replies. In any case, that's the one thing I've been adamant about keeping in tact as I build onto KS--the already-existing characters have to be themselves. Having them appear infrequently is the result of simple logistical problems, but I probably pay more attention when Shizune, Emi or Misha show up than any of my own characters. I still have KS on my task bar so I can open it and scan through the archive when I need to ensure my extrapolation of their reactions is within nominal parameters.

Hisao, for what it's worth, is basically a blank slate in almost every sense of the word. Aside from a few basic traits, his physical description, an aptitude for science, and a few inferences you can draw from his background, he's a malleable character. To that end, each route develops him into a different version of the Hisao we meet on that snowy field. That's why he's conducive to body-swap stories where he's replaced by a different male protagonist, or in this case, a female corollary. Iwanako is similarly bereft of solid descriptions--even her physical appearance is debatable--so you can make up whatever details you like.

(I dropped a spoiler tag on this because it might spoil some things for anyone that hasn't been reading TD)
For my story, I developed Iwanako as being somewhat similar to my protagonist in appearance, status, interests, and some aspects of her personality. This, of course, is a literary device intended to inspire justifiable concerns about Hisao's past relationship, feelings of inadequacy, and a sense of competition between my protagonist and a phantom antagonist--which is really just a projection of herself. I probably think a little bit too much about this kind of stuff...

Oh, yes, Leaty, there's something that I've been wondering about:

Leaty wrote:Upsettingly, my room is on the fourth story. I climb three flights of stairs, exiting into a long hallway that breaks off into several smaller hallways, like the prongs of a fork. Seems like a good way to keep students organized.

It’s easy enough to locate my hallway, not far from the stairs. Apparently each smaller hallway has four rooms, with a restroom and shower at the end. Hopefully that means I won’t have to duel anybody for the shower in the mornings.

Based on that, I've been trying to work out how the Yamaku female dormitory building (and presumably also its male counterpart), at least in this story, is designed. Is the below at all close to the rough layout, and, if not, might I trouble you to enlighten me?

Though… a problem with this design is that most rooms will have, if their windows are centered, windows that look directly into those of other rooms. To avert that, I think that it might be good to stagger the windows. Hm, but then two of the rooms on each level would lack windows due to the position of the VMM (Vertical Movement Module, which is what I'm suddenly calling the bits of the building holding the holding the lifts and stairs) at that end of the hall. Perhaps those rooms could be used as utility closets?


Also, how does one on this forum make an spoiler box or equivalent? Spoiler tags here appear to simply apply black to text, which, while fine for hiding the text, does little to provide condensation of long passages or prevent large images from getting in the way when not wanted.

Reese8 wrote:Also, how does one on this forum make an spoiler box or equivalent? Spoiler tags here appear to simply apply black to text, which, while fine for hiding the text, does little to provide condensation of long passages or prevent large images from getting in the way when not wanted.

Spoiler tags here only black out text, they aren't applied for shortening long passages. Otherwise, I doubt Silentcook would have as many problems with overly long posts.

(deadfic)

Leaty wrote:

Reese8 wrote:Based on that, I've been trying to work out how the Yamaku female dormitory building (and presumably also its male counterpart), at least in this story, is designed. Is the below at all close to the rough layout, and, if not, might I trouble you to enlighten me?
http://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/51/22/96/screen10.png
Though… a problem with this design is that most rooms will have, if their windows are centered, windows that look directly into those of other rooms. To avert that, I think that it might be good to stagger the windows. Hm, but then two of the rooms on each level would lack windows due to the position of the VMM (Vertical Movement Module, which is what I'm suddenly calling the bits of the building holding the holding the lifts and stairs) at that end of the hall. Perhaps those rooms could be used as utility closets.

Hmm, well, for one thing, the first floor wouldn't necessarily conform to the same shape as the upper floors, because it doesn't have any bedrooms, but also the building itself probably isn't one long corridor—it's probably shaped vaguely like a cross potent (☩,) perhaps with each quadrant dividing up small courtyard areas. The central portion on each floor probably has stuff like kitchens or study rooms or maybe auxiliary day rooms, or maybe even bedrooms that don't conform to the hallway system for whatever reason (maybe double bedrooms, for students that just can't get enough of each other.) There's probably a stairway at every end of the dorm building and elevators at both the north and south ends, as well as fire escapes. Iwanako's window would peek into one of the "courtyards," then, but she doesn't really care.

The building probably has four different entrances, but probably three of them are locked from the outside all night, if not all day as well. People probably get in trouble for keeping those doors propped open for easy access.

Hm... After some thought, I think that I've got a mental picture of the design. So each floor after the ground floor has 32 standard bedrooms? That seems like it produces some good numbers (Thrice 32, for three stories of bedrooms, is 96, twice 96, to include the male dormitory, is 192 for the number of students living on campus, a third of 192, for the three years, gives 64 students living on campus per year, and quartering 64, for four classes, gives 16 living-on-campus students in each class if there are four per year. 3-3 has eighteen students, which I'd say is within the error bars produced by the possibilities of varying class sizes, more than four classes per year, and students who live off campus.).

Leaty wrote:maybe double bedrooms, for students that just can't get enough of each other

...I'm not actually certain if you're serious here or not. I can't think of any reason why the administration would allow that, but, then again, this is a: not an ordinary school and b: part of the Japanese educational system, my main experience with which is KS.

Reese8 wrote:...I'm not actually certain if you're serious here or not. I can't think of any reason why the administration would allow that, but, then again, this is a: not an ordinary school and b: part of the Japanese educational system, my main experience with which is KS.

The Shizune/Emi femslash fic From Shizune's Perspective, daringly written way back before Katawa Shoujo was officially released, notoriously featured Shizune and Misha sharing a bedroom. That is what I'm alluding to. Amusingly, Misha was heterosexual in that fic.

Leaty wrote:

Reese8 wrote:...I'm not actually certain if you're serious here or not. I can't think of any reason why the administration would allow that, but, then again, this is a: not an ordinary school and b: part of the Japanese educational system, my main experience with which is KS.

The Shizune/Emi femslash fic From Shizune's Perspective, daringly written way back before Katawa Shoujo was officially released, notoriously featured Shizune and Misha sharing a bedroom. That is what I'm alluding to. Amusingly, Misha was heterosexual in that fic.

...Huh. Though, actually, if all the author had to work from was Act 1, I can see how they might have thought that scenario believable.

Leaty wrote:Watch, now I've scared newbies from ever bumping my threads ever again.

Oh really?

I've been lurking these forums for over a year now, principally the Fanfiction board. While I've read dozens of KS fanfics over the past year, this is the fanfic I'm most looking forward to see completed. Unlike other fanfics I've read, this is like reading the VN all over again from a new perspective, which feels like a breath of fresh air (even if the room was already mostly warm and cozy.)

It's a bit surprising no one's used this idea in any other KS fanfic despite it being over a year since you started out, as far as my superficial lurking suggests. I just recently discovered this thread a few months ago, when you bumped it. I would give you props for the idea, but it seems everybody and their grandmother's uncle's son's puppy's beaten me to the punch there.

Leaty wrote:Not blaming anybody, and again, nobody owes me anything, but I'm curious how people are viewing the more idiosyncratic aspects of the fic (Iwanako's voice, whether the canon characters are staying in character, do they enjoy Momomi, are they surprised/pleased/annoyed I turned Aoi and Keiko into fleshed-out characters, etc) and hearing what the readers want to see happen, and the sheer intensity of the radio silence has been a little maddening.

All things considered, I find your narrative style euphonious, and the loquacious bits sprinkled here and there are something I personally enjoy in my reading (even if I have to peruse the dictionary for a few of them, I enjoy discovering new words, and literarily speaking, not a bad thing done piecemeal.) There aren't many writers on this board that are as well-versed, but I'm sure you already knew that

I actually don't recall Aoi or Keiko in any fanfics I've read so far, but I take it they're the Emi and Rin of this fanfic, huh? Glad there's some authors who use the damn pool.

Momomi is great and, like Kenji, amuses me to no end. Hell, I put Out of the Loop on playback for her the same way I do for Kenji fanfic scenes. Despite her having a boyfriend, she's clearly gonna be a top contender in Iwanako's love life... or maybe I'm just seeing things?

Speaking of Iwanako:

Leaty wrote:It's harder to call me out on my characterization of Iwanako because she's such a cipher,

That could be why.

Leaty wrote: but even so I'm still kind of puzzled that nobody's really commented on the liberties I've taken with her (e.g., she's a lot more logical and jaded than perhaps she needs to be based on what we know of her, and nearly-fatal heart attack notwithstanding, from Hisao's perspective she certainly seemed much much sweeter in the games)

It's a whole other game once you get inside a character's head. If the narrative took place outside Iwanako's head, if you went back and edited the narrative from first-person to third-person, she'd appear shy like in the VN. Plus, like it's been noted, a nearly-fatal heart attack will do that to ya.

What's notable is this Iwanako is more "pop culture" oriented and trendy than canon suggests, but seeing she was described as a popular girl at some point (I think) it's not a stretch.

Another thing about Iwanako: It looks like you've been trying to differentiate her from Hanako. I was wondering why that is, besides both being shy brunettes with similar names. Is it because in fanfics Hanako is often portrayed as a smartass in first-person narrative? Maybe you could use this to an advantage and make her a sort of foil instead?

I'm going on a tangent here, but I've been personally looking forward to when Iwanako comes face-to-face with Hanako, particularly if they're portrayed in contrast. If Iwanako thinks her postop scar is an eyesore, it makes me wonder how she'll react to Hanako... Also, seeing how elitist this Iwanako appears to be, the popular Lilly is much preferable company than the unpopular class rep nobody sits next to in the cafeteria aside from her boisterous pink shadow. Just think, Iwanako becoming close to one of the most popular girls in school. Now that's cliquish, although I suspect Iwanako growing out of that mentality if she hasn't already.

In any case, surely I'm not the only one looking forward to all the other girls (if you introduce them all) and how they interact with a gender-flipped protagonist.

Leaty wrote:On some level this is my fault, because I'm too subtle, I bloviate about irrelevant topics, and the pace of Mean Time to Breakdown has been glacial (it's been a year and nobody knows who Iwanako's love interest is yet,) but it's still distressing.

In fact, that's my only real complaint: the "glacial" speed of this fanfic means there's not as much room for would-be critique (but lots for speculation) because, since Iwanako hasn't been in Yamaku for a week, most of the main cast hasn't been introduced yet. On the other hand, I decided to re-read the fic, something I'm not typically fond of. And yes, it is all your fault.

Just my two very wordy cents. Make of it what you will; I'm sure you've put more thought into your fanfiction than I've put into this post. I get where you're coming from in regards to constructive criticism however, and I'd be glad to do so at any time.

Again, I commend you on this well-written fanfic and I hope you see it through to the end. It's really the most refreshing piece I've read in the KS community in a long time!

(deadfic)

Leaty wrote:I've had to put a lot of effort into making her something more than just "Hisao with boobs."

I'd say that you did that as soon as you had her doing different things in the hospital, though that may be just me.

Leaty wrote:As far as Iwanako's love life is concerned, all I'll say on that is that due to some complexities of the genre, the Yamaku Festival won't be the moment it becomes apparent who her love interest is.

Hm, interesting.

Leaty wrote:On a side note: I just completed the next chapter of this fic. I'm waiting on my beta to look it over for me, and hopefully it should be fit for publishing pretty soon.

Yay!

Leaty wrote:

Reese8 wrote:Based on that, I've been trying to work out how the Yamaku female dormitory building (and presumably also its male counterpart), at least in this story, is designed. Is the below at all close to the rough layout, and, if not, might I trouble you to enlighten me?
http://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/51/22/96/screen10.png
Though… a problem with this design is that most rooms will have, if their windows are centered, windows that look directly into those of other rooms. To avert that, I think that it might be good to stagger the windows. Hm, but then two of the rooms on each level would lack windows due to the position of the VMM (Vertical Movement Module, which is what I'm suddenly calling the bits of the building holding the holding the lifts and stairs) at that end of the hall. Perhaps those rooms could be used as utility closets.

Hmm, well, for one thing, the first floor wouldn't necessarily conform to the same shape as the upper floors, because it doesn't have any bedrooms, but also the building itself probably isn't one long corridor—it's probably shaped vaguely like a cross potent (☩,) perhaps with each quadrant dividing up small courtyard areas. The central portion on each floor probably has stuff like kitchens or study rooms or maybe auxiliary day rooms, or maybe even bedrooms that don't conform to the hallway system for whatever reason (maybe double bedrooms, for students that just can't get enough of each other.) There's probably a stairway at every end of the dorm building and elevators at both the north and south ends, as well as fire escapes. Iwanako's window would peek into one of the "courtyards," then, but she doesn't really care.

The building probably has four different entrances, but probably three of them are locked from the outside all night, if not all day as well. People probably get in trouble for keeping those doors propped open for easy access.

Okay, I wasn't able to get stairs into each end of the cruciform corridor (the east and west have stairs while the north and south have lifts) and couldn't come up with much of a floorplan for the ground floor, but what do you think of this design?

Oh, for scale, the bedrooms are three-meter squares. I'm also not sure where it would be best to put the fire escapes. The inward sides of the bathrooms?

Have you considered that not every part of the dorms has to have the same layout as the corridor Hisao and Kenji live in?
In fact very few buildings are that symmetrical.

Personally, I try not to be terribly specific about the interior or exterior design of the buildings because I'm not an architect.