Haven't logged in for a day and stuff starts piling up...
Oddball wrote:
Both works to a certain extent, but often collides with one another; the former maybe the wiser and the lease popular choice, while the other is its contrast.
True, I agree to that.
I would disagree that one is a wiser choice.
Shizune may get more accomplished, but in doing so, she further isolates herself and manages to make everyone around her dislike her. Lilly may not do as much on a wide scale, but she's managed to make friends, earn the respect of those around her, and actualy manages to help a few people out in meaningful ways.
Lilly is a mother figure. Shizune is more of a boss.
Nononono, you're missing my point.
It's a figure of speech. I was looking a better way to word it last time, but I couldn't came up with any. I have a good one now:
Shizune and Lilly are like two-sides of the same coin. That sounds better now, does it?
Where Shizune made most of her decisions through the use of logical thinking and reasoning, Lilly utilizes feelings and emotions into consideration. Say I give both of them a task to rally the public for a cause--let's say an anti-war theme; Shizune may accomplished more, but in return its potential rigorous spartan-like application for the 'best' easily scares off a large number of people and leave only the few who managed to hold on and survive follow her (don't get me wrong, but this is one of the reason why Team Shizune can seem to be running more on the 'elitist' side. Bolsheviks, anyone?). On Lilly, however, more people are inclined to help, but considering how I perceived that she uses feelings and emotions more than her brain (excuse me), her heart would often gets the better of her judgment (let's say a pro-war guy came in saying 'we fight for your rights and family', Lilly would reconsider his testimony and often times I believe she'll digress or lose the momentum for an effective campaign. This is why Team Lilly can easily appeal to large crowds of masses--like the Mensheviks in pre-Soviet Russia).
By the end of the day, both gets the job done anyhow. In terms of quality, they're probably aren't far off--Shizune may have win the entire campaign and 'stopped the war', but Lilly also achieved the objective with the large number of supporters (albeit not winning the campaign).
Two sides of the same coin.
Guest Poster wrote:In reality, someone from a strict upbringing showing strong sexual urges after being let out into the world really is no contradiction whatsoever. Teen pregnancies tend to be highest among the teens who took so-called "chastity vows".
Also, by her very nature, Lily is a more physical oriented person. They bring up the fact that her other sense are sharper, including touch during the game. On top of that, she can't even look at Hisao. There's no gazing into his eyes or starring longingly at his picture on her dresser. If she wants to connect with him, she has to actually touch him.[/quote]
Err...wouldn't it be weird if the her author writes:
"Lilly gaze into my soul"
or
"Lilly stares longingly into Hisao's photo"
or
"She looks up at the sky, her eyes seemingly trace the movements of the clouds to and fro..."
considering that she is
blind? The authors CAN write it that way, and it wouldn't hurt; but that would make you question whether she is legally blind or that's just her contact lens fogging up, wouldn't it? It's writing style, not characterization.
I wouldn't say she's physical-oriented person (now I'm starting to imagine her running around in a red gym shorts and t-shirt, carrying two chikuwas and screams
"HAI! SENPAI FAITO!"), and since I can't find a better word she's more of a 'feeler' person. 'Feeler', as in touch, smell, hear, etc--the other senses she's not restricted with.
Guest Poster wrote:She did finish it in time AND in top-notch quality, she just didn't finish with any time remaining. In Lilly's defense, her class' plans were extremely ambitious, too much so in retrospect. She admits later the class underestimated the workload.
True, but not quite. In Shizune's defense, Lilly asked for an extension for her project--which was granted--and even then it takes Shizune's extra-pressure for her to submit it on-time. Looking through the lens of the original timeline for the project, Lilly had went overtime (and as quoted from you, she admits how 'her class underestimated the workload') and responsibility of this fell solely on her--the class representative. Not to mention, it is on budget reports and paperwork that could've been handled a few days beforehand. (do note that she is the
last person that is required to hand in the paperwork--all others are complete. Procrastination?)
Are you forgetting the fact that the people who were working on the paperwork side of things had been absent from class for several days or are you just ignoring it?
I'm not. I've been in the student council and class representative position in my high school career, so maybe there's some of that experience that weighs heavily in my perspective (which at some point made me judge Lilly to be a higher-moderate to bad leader).
But here's my response:
Are you also forgetting that she is the class representative who is responsible for her room (second to the homeroom teacher)? Are you also aware that a class would normally contain
twenty four to thirty students, and if one student is absent from class for several days there is still
twenty three to twenty nine students? Do you also know that class representatives are supposed to have
all phone numbers/emails/etc. of each students in class to contact in case of emergency or others?
Lilly doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline even if the student she assigned was absent from class for several days. If one's absent, she could go and ask another student to help her complete it--so why couldn't she? She doesn't have
any reason to miss the deadline or ask for an extension--hell, check 'Cold War'; she's the only class representative who hasn't submitted any of it while others have.
If five to ten classes are unable to complete it, then the problem lies with the leader/head/organizer/President/Kaichou/Bucchou/etc. who set an unrealistic goal, be it the end product or timeline. But if only ONE fails to do so, then the problem lies in
that class alone (in this case the leadership)--and considering it is just a budget report, she has no reason to say 'one kid has been sick and I can't do it' when she has twenty three other people that supports her (she's popular, isn't she?).
Saying 'one kid is sick and I can't complete it' is like pushing your failure/blame on the other who was unfortunate enough to be in that position at the time, and that's low. (Let's say you put yourself in that sick guy's shoe, you're assigned with the task, and you unfortunately caught that illness. Lilly is your class representative, and by some accident or psychic power you heard that she said "because 'x' is ill, I couldn't give you the report". How would you feel? Think about it.)
I see you prefer Lilly over Shizune, and that's fine. I respect that.
Now before I answer most of your replies, I'll tell you how I came up with that 'Kenji-esque' theoretical analysis. There are a number of different lenses anyone can use on analyzing a character:
-Character's Lens
-Author's Lens
-Reader's Lens
-Plot Lens
-Subplot Lens
And much more; these are just the basics.
True, it is safe to assume that all characters are written with a 'good nature' or a 'good heart' by the author. But is this really everything? When a character is believed to be 'x', then there's always something that is often overlooked which could potentially spawn the 'y' answer. You see where I'm going with this?
I am a revisionist, and when people see Lilly as the 'Yamato Nadeshiko'-saint/beauty/best-girl-in-game/etc., then I'll explore the reasons how she is depicted as such and try to analyze it past the common view--the 'y', as I call them. So you see, it's not really a 'Kenji-esque' argument without background/base (if it is I'll say 'Lilly is a space-alien a la the movie 'Species'). I have them, and I'll lay them down like a futon over a tatami mat below.
Admit it. You're about ready to break out your charts and puppets, aren't you?
I give a base on how I analyze the characters, and you attacked me instead. In a debate, you're supposed to attack the topic and
not the debater. As much as I am tempted to say that you're running in the lower-end of the intelligence sphere,I digress from calling you as such. It is a debate, and so I'll keep it as such.
Of course, if I have enough drive, I might write a 4000 word essay analysis for each character looking through the prose, plot, characterization, etc. (or as you say, "break out the charts and puppets")
>>Lilly as unreliable<<
This assumption comes in as a package with her blindness. Before you come up with 'hey that is so not true', listen to my argument. Most basic, daily tasks requires five basic senses of man: sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell. Just like Shizune lost one of these vital senses (hearing), Lilly lost one of these (sight). In Shizune's case, the lost of hearing is covered by Misha acting as her 'ears' in most involvement and--in later part--Hisao. Lilly's case is covered by a heightened sense of touch, hearing, and smell. This is laid out, and is a given (the game is called KS for a reason).
Now, throughout her arc Lilly mentions how she often relies on Akira or Hisao to act as her 'eyes' and despite of this she often reminds Hisao not to bring up their disability in play--this leads into this argument:
Lilly does not wish to be seen as a burden.
So let me rephrase 'unreliable'. It isn't because she is "unreliable" in the eyes of her friends and classmates, but it is because she feels to be so--a burden. Add procrastination into one of her negative quirk, her need to pass the paperwork to someone else who can read the printouts and finish the job (ACT I), and her inability to see what is around her to assist her in basic tasks such as buying presents, finding shops, traveling, etc. Often, she would downplay this issue of hers and would bring it up at the last-minute--or when it is pressed on to her. Why doesn't she bring it up with others? This leads to two answers and IMO both are legit:
So it'sokay for Shizune to rely on Misha constantly for help, but Lilly is unreliable and a bad person because she needs help far less often?
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
I don't think you're getting the point here, so let me rephrase it again.
Lilly is not
exactly unreliable--she
feels unreliable. You get me? Not 'I think Lilly is unreliable', it's more into 'Lilly feels unreliable'. Although considering how her emotions often clouds her judgment (good nature or just naive), her inability to complete assignments on time (with due respect, in regards from class rep. work to telling Hisao about her leave), and her blindness she
is be unreliable. I wouldn't trust her to edit my college's newspaper or an article--even if we ended up using braile as a sub-system; she wouldn't complete it on time, and if it's an interview, there's a good chance she'll say 'the person didn't show up' and ask for an extension.
But as a mental support and a friend, this is where she can say (and I can admit) that she is reliable.
Now with that cleared out, on to my next point.
Lilly
thinks she is unreliable/burden. But does it mean everybody around her thinks of her that way? No. We're humans with a brain and an IQ greater than a dog or a sheep, not some robot who'd say 'yes' when commanded. The only one who thinks is unreliable is Lilly and her parents--and I'm guessing she inherited that thought from her parents considering they are your number one influence in your childhood life. Your definition of 'help' considering Misha and Shizune revolves around Shizune needing a 'voice', or a way to connect to the outside world--a translator, so to say. It's like how an American company flies over to Japan and carries with them an American who understands Japanese so they can talk business.
Again, I say
you are missing the point.
And you say she's a rapist? At least better than a procrastinating liar.
Promise me you'll never get into the legal profession... or interact with people in any way. Please.[/quote]
LOL! I actually wrote that? Oh wow...sleep-induced madness.
I stand corrected.
Now, let me rephrase that:
"Considering how much she went through, how she wants to share her world with you (putting you in Hisao's shoe)--the only person who can and managed to understand her--you call her a rapist? Considering how far she'll go for you, at least she's better than someone who procrastinates and lies.
Wander wrote:Megumeru wrote:I love a good debate, and I am enjoying this a lot.
Ok, that's all you would have needed to say for why you prefer Shizune; You are like her yourself. You are obviously also willing to go to great lengths to defend your view. Good for you, but I doubt you are going to change anyone's opinion who isn't already inclined to prefer Shizune.
One crucial thing I'd like to mention as to why I'd have trouble with Shizune is that I fucking love music! I discuss music with my friends every day. I look for new stuff regularly, I am constantly listening to something, I play guitar and drums, it's all a crucial part of my life. How could I convey this to someone to whom there is no sound.
I have no intention of changing anyone's opinion; although it can count as such if you say it is
I'm like her? I'll take that as a complement because to be honest...
I'm not. Well, far from it anyway.
I slack, miss deadlines once in awhile (or more often than I can count), and fail at certain aspects/achievements/goals. It'll be nice to have someone like Shizune beside me to push me around when I slack, tease me when I'm bored, and cry with me when I'm in pain. But the reason why I like Shizune more than Lilly is this:
Lilly's character strikes me as someone who would say: "it's ok, today's a bad day but surely the sun will rise tomorrow and everything will be better."
Shizune's character strikes me as someone who would say: "don't run away from yesterday's problem because it will build up into something bigger--instead, face it with your chest up and fight it. A good future doesn't fall from the sky; YOU make it happen."
This is why Shizune strikes me the most.
WorldlyWiseman wrote:Bypassing the essay posts entirely...
I like Lilly's personality and grace just fine, but after having to actually assist visually impaired people people on a few occasions (I work in a very busy grocery chain), I don't think I would be able to handle that kind of stress in an actual relationship, even with practice. The problem isn't with Lilly, it's with me
As for Shizune, she really feels like the most 'adult' of the available girls (probably the honesty and directness that does it for me). My first impression wasn;t that great, however. During the big fight in Act 1, when she tells Lilly 'It must be so hard, being you', it really sounded to me like she was mocking Lilly for being blind. It felt like a really fucked up thing to do at the time and she lost a lot of points with me. That stuck with me until I played her path and figure out that Shizune was probably just accusing Lilly of being self-pitying.
Read it. It might change your mind
)