Katawa Shoujo Forums

Otakumon wrote:Read Misha's rooftop coming out and the flashback scenes again. She thought it was over after being rejected but Shizune kept tracking her down, similar to how the two of them kept after Hisao in act 1. She was glad that Shizune still wanted to be her friend but she also says it hurt both then and now.

Good point. But still, that same scene establishes that Shizune pursued her in an effort to preserve their friendship, not for purely selfish reasons. I think the problem there is that she didn't understand the ramifications of what she was doing. I also think that might be why she's more conservative about taking risks with the people she cares about now.

Well, Misha kept the majority of her hurt a secret from Shizune after the rejection, and that's what caused the whole Stepford Smiler business the former had going on. Shizune knows that she's still hurting in some way due to her being able to read body language exceptionally well due to being deaf, and takes measurements to try and lessen it such as not being too lovey-dovey with Hisao around her, making sure that they all spend time together, doing Student Council work, etc. I just don't think she knew how much Misha was hurting until the end of her route (exceptionally so in the bad ending, and the guilt crushes her).

I think as Misha was the first close friend she ever made, and a person she got on really well with, she didn't want to lose her. Shizune does love Misha, just not in "that way". However, Shizune has no real idea of how to handle relationships of any kind due to her upbringing and lack of interaction with people - she's not going to really pick up on things that "normal" people would such as giving Misha the space she needs to get over things.

Shizune also doesn't strike me as the type to have experienced unrequited love, or have had more than maybe minor crushes on people before Hisao - it doesn't seem like a priority to her, really, it'd be something she might brush out of the way, so she really might not be able to relate to Misha's romantic attraction. She'd rather be a workaholic or make people happy in general rather than settle down in an affluent suburb somewhere and have a few kids, which is why her being a philanthropist with her family's wealth makes a lot of sense (and I'd love to see Jigoro's face when he finds that out, he'd shit a brick).

So ... yes, I think both girls are at fault and were a bit thoughtless about handling the whole situation, but at the same time it's one of those situations where nobody means for anyone to get hurt, but everyone does anyway - including Hisao when he's caught up in it. All sides are understandable.

I enjoyed shizunes route very much so, but I also mean the route too. Jigoro, mishas depression, haedeki all had a good impact in the route to make it funny and sad. notorious was particularly hilarious to me. "WHY ARE YOU YELLING"!

I also like to highlight for the thread what was said: The good end meant shizune won't "wipe clean" her history, before she would just push people away even though she drags them into her life, but during their final day she says she wants to see them both again. Continuing their relationship beyond student council at Yamaku. But saying "I love you" back would be nice too

In the bad ending she pushes them both away. No change from her bad habit.

Bagheera wrote:

Otakumon wrote:Read Misha's rooftop coming out and the flashback scenes again. She thought it was over after being rejected but Shizune kept tracking her down, similar to how the two of them kept after Hisao in act 1. She was glad that Shizune still wanted to be her friend but she also says it hurt both then and now.

Good point. But still, that same scene establishes that Shizune pursued her in an effort to preserve their friendship, not for purely selfish reasons. I think the problem there is that she didn't understand the ramifications of what she was doing. I also think that might be why she's more conservative about taking risks with the people she cares about now.

Very good point. Also very in line with the idea that Shizune's growth as a character is learning how these things affect others and learning how to effectively communicate these sorts of things (as in: "Can you tell me what you think?")

I finished both the good and "bad" endings with Shizune yesterday and today, and they were pretty good. SO far I still like Emi's the most, but Shizune's was nice too... sad in a way, but I still liked it...

Not really looking forward to Lily or Hanako's, people say they are the best and mean the most, so I'd like to save them for last, but will be sad when its all over... so just taking my time...

I was first of the opinion that the Shizune route offered no real conflict. Then after reading HeMeido's perspective on it, my view changed 180. I can't wait to read through the arc again, as I'm really bad at picking up subtleties like that

That's the best summary yet. I don't agree with his view on Jigoro but everything else is exactly right.

Shizune's route is the only route that Hisao has a spine and can ask the girl out without worrying about it for days. Smooth Hisao is smooth.

I didn't enjoy Shizune's route at first, and it took me a day or so of mediation on it before I could appreciate it.

I see KS as a teen love story, albeit one set in a disabled school. But still, young love story. I had just come off Emi's route, which IS that stereotype down to the ground, and is an excellent example of it. Shizune's route... really isn't. And I had much hate for it because of that.
But once I had calmed down and analysed it a bit more, I came to appreciate it better. IMHO the story would be better with any mention of romance removed from it (the fact that Hisao and Shizune are dating is utterly incidental to the story, and in fact ignored by most of it). But the relationship between Hisao, Shizone and Misha is very very well done. It perfectly shows how someone is reliant on someone else, and their very close bond, before becoming less reliant on them as a third party enters the scene, and their shuffling around as all three parties re-assess their relationships with the others (platonic relationships).
Having said that, I still think that before that plot point enters, the story before this kinda goes nowhere for no reason.

Also, why does he bring a sword to school???

There's just too many unresolved issues in this path for people to enjoy it on their first read through. If you are planning to read this path again make sure that you focus your attention on the main trio, everything else (most anyway) is just fluff. What makes it even worse is that a22 wrote an interesting fluff.

Althamus wrote:IMHO the story would be better with any mention of romance removed from it (the fact that Hisao and Shizune are dating is utterly incidental to the story, and in fact ignored by most of it). But the relationship between Hisao, Shizone and Misha is very very well done. It perfectly shows how someone is reliant on someone else, and their very close bond, before becoming less reliant on them as a third party enters the scene, and their shuffling around as all three parties re-assess their relationships with the others (platonic relationships).

The fact there is romance is what makes it so juicy, and makes all the emotions run so hot. The absolutely crucial scenes of Shizune and Hisao making the sex, or Misha getting distraught and trying to be 'comforted' are what elevate it.

It would still work without romance, but you'd have to make one or more of the characters a total whackjob in order to get the same level of emotion.

AnotherGuest wrote:Then after reading HeMeido's perspective on it, my view changed 180. I can't wait to read through the arc again, as I'm really bad at picking up subtleties like that

Pretty excellent analysis, thanks . That's the thing about Shizune's route, and the reason why most people don't seem to understand it. There's just as much conflict as the other routes, but it's not nearly as evident and doesn't elicit the same reactions that, say, Lilly's does, so people see it as being shallow and write it off like A22 just "trashed" the route (which somebody actually claimed as fact on /v/...).

Meatbag wrote:There's just too many unresolved issues in this path for people to enjoy it on their first read through. If you are planning to read this path again make sure that you focus your attention on the main trio, everything else (most anyway) is just fluff. What makes it even worse is that a22 wrote an interesting fluff.

I dispute that.

It's a long route, no doubt about that. It throws a lot of "unnecessary" stuff in there, but just about every door it opens, it manages to close. I mean, a lot of the stuff that people brand as inconsequential can actually end up being pretty important to the story, like Hisao trying to teach Hideaki how to sign, which actually ended up being a pretty nice parallel to the lack of communication in Shizune's family. Allow me to elaborate:

Glance over HeMeido's analysis. In the analysis, he manages to dig out the subtle conflicts that are happening and sort of connect the literal dots. But what about the metaphorical ones? What's the general motif of Shizune's route? It's communication. Shizune's "saying" is this: "Can you tell me what you think?" She comes from a dysfunctional family that is not dysfunctional because her father is bitter over having a disabled child, but because nobody in that family knows how to properly communicate with one another. Her character arc revolves almost entirely around her learning to communicate her feelings effectively to both Misha and Hisao, about every character learning how to interpret their own feelings and through that process deal with them properly. So where does the ending leave us in regards to "having every door closed"? Jigoro is trying to bring his family closer together (baby steps towards effectively communicating), Shizune learns how to telegraph her emotions to Hisao after the second H-scene, and Hisao manages to strike a sort of equilibrium between the three friends in regards to Misha. If you ask me, that's pretty cut and dry.

metalangel wrote:

Althamus wrote:IMHO the story would be better with any mention of romance removed from it (the fact that Hisao and Shizune are dating is utterly incidental to the story, and in fact ignored by most of it). But the relationship between Hisao, Shizone and Misha is very very well done. It perfectly shows how someone is reliant on someone else, and their very close bond, before becoming less reliant on them as a third party enters the scene, and their shuffling around as all three parties re-assess their relationships with the others (platonic relationships).

It would still work without romance, but you'd have to make one or more of the characters a total whackjob in order to get the same level of emotion.

Not even.

It wouldn't work without romance, and here's why:

This is a story that paints sex as a form of communication. Sex and intimacy are the medium in which this route works. Without them, we wouldn't see Shizune grow as a character, and we wouldn't get any sort of accurate picture about Hisao's relationship to her. Maybe you could do something with the Misha situation (god, every time I say that it feels like I'm saying "The Bonnie Situation"), but as MetalAngel and to a greater extent HeMeido said, that's partially what make the emotions run so deep - the element of a love triangle, portrayed so explicitly. If you remove romance from the equation, you remove the gravitas of the sex, and without that gravitas the story crumbles.

What I mean is you'd get an entirely different kind of emotion. You could have jealousy and resentment and alienation (or, with the whackjob, psychotic anger) without there needing to be romantic interest. You'd need to make them really, really extreme examples but the story would still work on the principle of one party losing their friendship with the other by the introduction of a new third party.

What the story wouldn't still be, though, is as interesting. Misha is undeniably a key part of it all, but not the focus. It's about Shizune learning about and experiencing things she's probably only read about in books up until now. Can you imagine what a confusing headrush it would be to realize you were finally experiencing friendship, affection, falling in love, after 18 years? All that anticipation?

Awesome stuff. But it's the falling in love stuff that's key.* Yes, Shizune and Hisao become close as each helps the other resolve their personal issues, but it's the fact that they fall in love that lights the real spark.

*it's also the reason she's not really sure how to deal with it all at once and acts weird sometimes.

metalangel wrote:What I mean is you'd get an entirely different kind of emotion. You could have jealousy and resentment and alienation (or, with the whackjob, psychotic anger) without there needing to be romantic interest. You'd need to make them really, really extreme examples but the story would still work on the principle of one party losing their friendship with the other by the introduction of a new third party.

What the story wouldn't still be, though, is as interesting. Misha is undeniably a key part of it all, but not the focus. It's about Shizune learning about and experiencing things she's probably only read about in books up until now. Can you imagine what a confusing headrush it would be to realize you were finally experiencing friendship, affection, falling in love, after 18 years? All that anticipation?

Awesome stuff. But it's the falling in love stuff that's key.* Yes, Shizune and Hisao become close as each helps the other resolve their personal issues, but it's the fact that they fall in love that lights the real spark.

*it's also the reason she's not really sure how to deal with it all at once and acts weird sometimes.

True that, it would not be nearly as interesting.

And yeah, on the physical surface layer I think you've got a pretty much airtight explanation there.

I'm just talking about what goes on underneath the surface. I would argue that the "reason she's not really sure how to deal with it all at once and acts weird sometimes" is from that communicative aspect of things.

It's an interesting point, however, that you bring up in talking about the anticipation. You're right, Shizune has only really been able to read about this stuff in books, being so isolated by her deafness. We tend to contextualize everything from Hisao's perspective, and because Shizune doesn't have her own voice for the better part of 2 acts its sometimes difficult to think about what it's like to get inside her head...Hanako, Rin, and Emi might be just as unsure of themselves as Shizune, but the way that they contextualize their relationship to Hisao and especially the way that they interact with him is very different (not in a bad or good way, just a different way). Hmm. Intriguing