Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[Megumeru]

Except that she didn't miss the deadline, and it's likely that she was never going to miss the deadline. It was due the day Shizune was pestering her about it, yes, but that exchange happened early in the morning, and she still had the entire rest of the day to get the paperwork from those sick students and turn it in (and she presumably did so). And she mentions the paperwork deadline to Hisao before Misha and Shizune even come to the classroom, which means she didn't even need to be reminded about it, let alone nagged and accused of forgetting and not completing it. There was absolutely 0 irresponsibility demonstrated by Lilly in that whole situation. There was, however, a fair amount of unnecessarily gleeful antagonism demonstrated by Shizune.

That antagonism is legit IMO considering how Shizune mentioned that the deadline she was presented with--the day she was pestered about it--was an extension per her request from her original, given deadline. And of course she mentions the extended deadline paperwork and not the one that was--by that time--overdue. Considering how she is the only class representative that has not hand in the paperwork, not to mention on an extended deadline that gives off a lot of character concerning her 'responsibility'.

Add to the fact that this paperwork is vital concerning the upcoming festival's class budget, an undermanned Student Council service who still tries to bring everything together, and a single class representative who still haven't managed to hand the necessary paperwork. Do the math and it's pretty much legit how stressed, pissed, and tired Shizune would be trying to 'fill in the blanks' of that missing budget report without accuracy. Student Council work is tough shit; I've done it, maybe some of you have done it, I don't know. But I can definitely tell you that if a significant number of class representatives/committees were unable to meet the deadline, then it's legit that the leader had established a very-very unrealistic goal.

But if only one class representative/committee failed to meet the deadline, then you have to ask yourself what the hell is going on and pester them about it--and that is also on extended deadline

Lilly already missed the first deadline. She asked for an extension, and yes I doubt she'll miss the second one after being pestered. But the fact remains that she missed the deadline everybody managed to accomplish, then proceeded to point her finger to that sick student for not making to class when it is due. If I'm in Shizune's shoe in Yamaku (which I have been in the past--not in Yamaku, of course), I'll pester the shit out of her concerning that report and I'll probably put someone else in charge by then.

[WorldlyWiseman]

Shizune at her Shizunest!

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Geez, I make a little KS-related quip and look at what I get.

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

I don't know if that was on purpose, but don't go ahead and use the painfully obvious and wrong comparison for Rin in order to invalidate my answer. We all know painting is to Rin like competing is to Shizune. If you said Rin was weird, then at least use that if I said "shizune is a bossy bitch".

THAT is a good comparison

Okay, sorry, the way I phrased that was pretty shit. I was trying to say that trying to put everything she does into the context of competition is focusing on a surface element of her personality. I should have used a better example and I shouldn't have lumped metalangel's comment in. Bad move on my part, my apologies.

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Shizune is most herself when applying herself and others to a problem. Being competitive is just a side effect. She pours more into Student Council work with Misha and Hisao than she does any round of chess or Risk, because those games are just the same as Emi running by herself or Rin trying to paint something for someone other than herself.

What she wants most is the challenge of building something that will last, and she is continually frustrated by the fact that she can't use traditional avenues of leading people. Note the example she uses about using a personal story to build trust with someone else - it just doesn't work if you have to speak through an interpreter. She is a leader at heart, but has to work much harder at it both because of having to work so indirectly and because she can overestimate others' ability to care about her goals.

In the end, she (likely) chooses Hisao because she thinks he is up to the challenge.

You know how easily I can just change that the other way around ? Shizune is competitive, solving life's problems is merely a way for her to play a game. Getting Hisao to join the student council, trying to win Misha back, harassing Lilly for the hell of it. It's all some game with people one way or another. Your own example of building something that will last is like competing against the clock. The student council was a way to build something that will last, everyday a new challenge presents itself, each day closer to graduation and still not finding people interested in continuing the student council (until the end where everything works itself out amazingly). It's why she was so worried about the next council being ineffective and possibly ruin everything Shizune has done so far. You know, failing to win at her goal of making something that will last. It's competing, it's a game etc.

Hanako has games, Emi runs, Rin paints, and Shizune competes. Don't go beyond that because you don't have to, you're reading too much into anything and everything.

If we aren't trying to examine their personalities beyond the obvious stuff, then why are we making this long thread about it?

Rin isn't even particularly beholden to painting, anyway. She talks about it in one of the post-gallery scenes. It's just something that she can do that she is also good at, and she is just trying to express herself through this. Shizune likes setting herself to a problem (even if her ego gets caught up in it) and clearly has a preference for having others work with her (even if she is ruthless in how she evaluates others). Most of the work she does isn't 'against' other people, and when it is, she's clearly under the impression that it will be good for them in the end. I mean, you read her good ending, right? She wants to tackle the biggest challenges, social problems and such, and she comes to the conclusion that she may have been doing it wrong.

You are seriously stretching the definition of 'compete' to...do what exactly? We are in a thread where we pick apart the personalities of the girls in the game. Taking two points of information and examining what is implied is part of that, isn't it?

A good example...

Lilly doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline even if the student she assigned was absent from class for several days. If one's absent, she could go and ask another student to help her complete it--so why couldn't she? She doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline or ask for an extension--hell, check 'Cold War'; she's the only class representative who hasn't submitted any of it while others have.

If five to ten classes are unable to complete it, then the problem lies with the leader/head/organizer/President/Kaichou/Bucchou/etc. who set an unrealistic goal, be it the end product or timeline. But if only ONE fails to do so, then the problem lies in that class alone (in this case the leadership)--and considering it is just a budget report, she has no reason to say 'one kid has been sick and I can't do it' when she has twenty three other people that supports her (she's popular, isn't she?).

Saying 'one kid is sick and I can't complete it' is like pushing your failure/blame on the other who was unfortunate enough to be in that position at the time, and that's low. (Let's say you put yourself in that sick guy's shoe, you're assigned with the task, and you unfortunately caught that illness. Lilly is your class representative, and by some accident or psychic power you heard that she said "because 'x' is ill, I couldn't give you the report". How would you feel? Think about it.)

That's from a previous post--page 8-9 I think. You can feel responsible for a lot of things, but if you can't--or won't--act on it, then you're still irresponsible nonetheless.

Except that she didn't miss the deadline, and it's likely that she was never going to miss the deadline. It was due the day Shizune was pestering her about it, yes, but that exchange happened early in the morning, and she still had the entire rest of the day to get the paperwork from those sick students and turn it in (and she presumably did so). And she mentions the paperwork deadline to Hisao before Misha and Shizune even come to the classroom, which means she didn't even need to be reminded about it, let alone nagged and accused of forgetting and not completing it. There was absolutely 0 irresponsibility demonstrated by Lilly in that whole situation. There was, however, a fair amount of unnecessarily gleeful antagonism demonstrated by Shizune.

Yeah, the best response from Shizune here would have been to delegate a student from her own class to help out Lilly's ("[Clearly, your class has been stretched to its limits preparing your elaborate project, allow me to supply additional resources.]"). I mean, Hisao is sitting right there. She isn't perfect, though. For all the glowing statements we can make about her, she's still a teenager. She doesn't always choose her challenges well.

The text encourages us to believe that the antagonism between them has a lot to do with their feuding families. Then there's the fact that Lilly requested that the deadline be moved (although we don't know how many classes were behind at that point). Lilly is being heroically polite, but is clearly defensive and doesn't really even try to take control of the situation (arguably, she may not be able to by the time it gets bad).

So Shizune isn't wrong to feel wronged here, but she does handle it badly.

[Oddball]

I think we're overlooking one huge handicap that Lilly's class has than no other class has to deal with.

They have to rely on Kenji.

Mostly because they're all blind or can hardly see, but still ... relying on Kenji.

[Titus]

If we aren't trying to examine their personalities beyond the obvious stuff, then why are we making this long thread about it?

Rin isn't even particularly beholden to painting, anyway. She talks about it in one of the post-gallery scenes. It's just something that she can do that she is also good at, and she is just trying to express herself through this. Shizune likes setting herself to a problem (even if her ego gets caught up in it) and clearly has a preference for having others work with her (even if she is ruthless in how she evaluates others). Most of the work she does isn't 'against' other people, and when it is, she's clearly under the impression that it will be good for them in the end. I mean, you read her good ending, right? She wants to tackle the biggest challenges, social problems and such, and she comes to the conclusion that she may have been doing it wrong.

You are seriously stretching the definition of 'compete' to...do what exactly? We are in a thread where we pick apart the personalities of the girls in the game. Taking two points of information and examining what is implied is part of that, isn't it?

com·pete (km-pt)
intr.v. com·pet·ed, com·pet·ing, com·petes
To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or a victory.


Competing doesn't just involve a ball and a field, you see. Besides how am I stretching the definition? In Shizoons route she and Hisao were about to argue about Shizune making it a game to finish first in class assignments, also known as competing. This scene when they were talking was important in the story to explain something about Shizune: She makes everything into a game

Most of the work she does isn't 'against' other people, and when it is, she's clearly under the impression that it will be good for them in the end. I mean, you read her good ending, right?

Good end was scraped for the neutral end just kidding. That's her philanthropist side, she realizes her old ways of playing with people like little chess pieces (bad end reveals this - right before their first sex scene too) is wrong and she's going to change that. Most of the story then, it can be assumed that she still liked to play around, after all she loves the thrill of the arguing with Lilly. Despite there being no need.

Rin isn't even particularly beholden to painting, anyway

Really, now? ... She's says brushes and paints were pretty much her friends, it's the BEST way she can communicate to others in her own opinion. If that doesn't spell just how important and how big a part painting/drawing/art is in her life then...well...then wtf man? The story had completely lead me wrong

[metalangel]

Okay, sorry, the way I phrased that was pretty shit. I was trying to say that trying to put everything she does into the context of competition is focusing on a surface element of her personality. I should have used a better example and I shouldn't have lumped metalangel's comment in. Bad move on my part, my apologies.

It's cool. 'Shizune at her Shizuniest' was more a reference to the preceding +1 comment of 'Shizune at her best' rather than 'competing'.

Yeah, the best response from Shizune here would have been to delegate a student from her own class to help out Lilly's ("[Clearly, your class has been stretched to its limits preparing your elaborate project, allow me to supply additional resources.]"). I mean, Hisao is sitting right there.

Shizune's clearly read the KS forum and knows what will happen if she sends the first boy she ever liked off with Lilly

(I'm just trying to lighten the mood, we shouldn't be taking offense and/or waging war over every little comment that doesn't match precisely with our view. I'm just glad to have all you guys here to talk to about KS and related topics)

[Oddball]

Yeah, the best response from Shizune here would have been to delegate a student from her own class to help out Lilly's ("[Clearly, your class has been stretched to its limits preparing your elaborate project, allow me to supply additional resources.]"). I mean, Hisao is sitting right there.

Shizune's clearly read the KS forum and knows what will happen if she sends the first boy she ever liked off with Lilly

She could send Taro. Nobody cares about Taro.

[Guest Poster]

Kenji isn't the only student in class 3-2 with partial vision, but Lilly mentions they're definitely in the minority meaning a lot of careful delegating is needed in order to get anything done.

Whether Lilly is a bad leader or not depends on the situation. There's a wide range of traits that make someone leader-material; organisation skills, decisiveness, charisma, responsibility and a tiny tinge of ruthlessness. Lilly's pretty organized herself, so delegating stuff is something that comes naturally to her and she's responsible. Say what you will about her pace, she doesn't shun her responsibilities. And let's face it...in the charisma department, this isn't even a contest. Lilly's people skills put her ahead of Shizune by miles.

Shizune, on the other hand, has a trait by the truckloads that Lilly completely lacks...the ability to make unpopular decisions; which we all know tend to pop up from time to time. Her decisiveness is definitely a plus for her, though that decisiveness also tends to overshoot the mark and then turns into complete muleheadedness. Like Lilly, Shizune's a responsible person as well and doesn't just not shun her responsibilities, she likes to hog them. (even when she shouldn't)

Lilly and Shizune both have certain leader-qualities. For the normal situations, Lilly's knack for diplomacy seems to put her ahead, but in crisis situations, Shizune's go-get-em attitude gives her the advantage by a mile. Neither of them are ideal leaders though.

A good leader can analyze a situation, determine whether the situation calls for the stick or the carrot-method and then apply the most effective method. Lilly's too much of a softie for the stick while Shizune lacks the patience for that carrot-shit.

But really, the Act 1 state of the student council isn't exactly a shining example of leadership skills. When Hisao transfers in, there's only two people on the student council and it's later revealed one of those members isn't even interested in the council, so if it wasn't for Misha's gal-crush, the whole council would be just Shizune and nobody else. A good leader recognizes when a method isn't working and shifts course in time if results can be improved that way. Shizune's tendency to adopt a tunnel vision and limit her only course to straight ahead at full speed doesn't really do her any favors in the long run.

[Megumeru]

Kenji isn't the only student in class 3-2 with partial vision, but Lilly mentions they're definitely in the minority meaning a lot of careful delegating is needed in order to get anything done.

Whether Lilly is a bad leader or not depends on the situation. There's a wide range of traits that make someone leader-material; organisation skills, decisiveness, charisma, responsibility and a tiny tinge of ruthlessness. Lilly's pretty organized herself, so delegating stuff is something that comes naturally to her and she's responsible. Say what you will about her pace, she doesn't shun her responsibilities. And let's face it...in the charisma department, this isn't even a contest. Lilly's people skills put her ahead of Shizune by miles.

Shizune, on the other hand, has a trait by the truckloads that Lilly completely lacks...the ability to make unpopular decisions; which we all know tend to pop up from time to time. Her decisiveness is definitely a plus for her, though that decisiveness also tends to overshoot the mark and then turns into complete muleheadedness. Like Lilly, Shizune's a responsible person as well and doesn't just not shun her responsibilities, she likes to hog them. (even when she shouldn't)

Lilly and Shizune both have certain leader-qualities. For the normal situations, Lilly's knack for diplomacy seems to put her ahead, but in crisis situations, Shizune's go-get-em attitude gives her the advantage by a mile. Neither of them are ideal leaders though.

A good leader can analyze a situation, determine whether the situation calls for the stick or the carrot-method and then apply the most effective method. Lilly's too much of a softie for the stick while Shizune lacks the patience for that carrot-shit.

But really, the Act 1 state of the student council isn't exactly a shining example of leadership skills. When Hisao transfers in, there's only two people on the student council and it's later revealed one of those members isn't even interested in the council, so if it wasn't for Misha's gal-crush, the whole council would be just Shizune and nobody else. A good leader recognizes when a method isn't working and shifts course in time if results can be improved that way. Shizune's tendency to adopt a tunnel vision and limit her only course to straight ahead at full speed doesn't really do her any favors in the long run.

Technically speaking, they are both two-sides of the same coin. Yes, I agree with that.

The definition of a 'good leader' is also subjective--for you, if I read it correctly it is 'not sticking to tunnel vision'. For me, a 'good leader' is someone who leads by example and is not afraid to step-up and take risks when necessary. For others, a 'good leader' is someone who is compassionate and patient. All are correct viewpoints, and when you think about it it falls on the category of 'ideals'--hell, my history teacher sees 'Stalin' as a good leader, and I can't blame him for that perspective. Well 'Guest Poster', whoever you are, you always put up insightful view in this board.

Hats off to you.

Ironic how they could actually complement each other--both in physical and leadership base.
So, case closed?

[Oddball]

The definition of a 'good leader' is also subjective--for you, if I read it correctly it is 'not sticking to tunnel vision'. For me, a 'good leader' is someone who leads by example and is not afraid to step-up and take risks when necessary. For others, a 'good leader' is someone who is compassionate and patient. All are correct viewpoints, and when you think about it it falls on the category of 'ideals'--hell, my history teacher sees 'Stalin' as a good leader, and I can't blame him for that perspective. Well 'Guest Poster', whoever you are, you always put up insightful view in this board.

I think you're leaving out one of the most important aspects of being a leader.

Followers.

If nobody follows you, you're not exactly leading. Shizune seems to have problems with getting anyone to actually follow her.

[Megumeru]

The definition of a 'good leader' is also subjective--for you, if I read it correctly it is 'not sticking to tunnel vision'. For me, a 'good leader' is someone who leads by example and is not afraid to step-up and take risks when necessary. For others, a 'good leader' is someone who is compassionate and patient. All are correct viewpoints, and when you think about it it falls on the category of 'ideals'--hell, my history teacher sees 'Stalin' as a good leader, and I can't blame him for that perspective. Well 'Guest Poster', whoever you are, you always put up insightful view in this board.

I think you're leaving out one of the most important aspects of being a leader.

Followers.

If nobody follows you, you're not exactly leading. Shizune seems to have problems with getting anyone to actually follow her.

I'm not forgetting that aspect. Who said she doesn't have followers?
-Misha follows Shizune for her own reasons, but she's there--you can't ignore her.
-Hisao follows Shizune out of his own interest towards her.

A "follower" doesn't have to be ten, twenty, even thirty--it could just be one, two, or three and it will still make you a leader. A family of three, for example, with two children and a father/mother'. Despite having only two 'followers', is the father still considered as a leader? What about you and your best friend, just the two of you; who plays the leading role in your two-man clique? Is he/she considered a leader?

You don't need a crowd, a horde, or an army to be a leader. You only need someone who trusts and believes in you to become one--if you have a younger sibling, you're instantly a 'leader' between the two of you like it or not.

Besides, the smaller the group you are in, the closer you are with your 'followers' means the stronger the bond/kinship/relationship within the group. When you're in a pinch, you know you can trust your 'followers' to come and assist you, and they will think the same of you.

Large groups doesn't have similar dynamics, bond, or kinship between the members and can easily be broken into pieces if nailed in the right places--great empires of the past, be it China, Rome, Britain, and Soviet Russia suffered these as one of the primary causes of its downfall.

Group size =/= good leader
Think about it.

[Oddball]

I'm not forgetting that aspect. Who said she doesn't have followers?
-Misha follows Shizune for her own reasons, but she's there--you can't ignore her.
-Hisao follows Shizune out of his own interest towards her.

So she leads two people. Both of which he only leads because they're in love with her (and at first, just because Hisao keeps getting dragged along. he seems to spend most of act 1 trying to avoid having to work for the council.)

Somehow this establishes her as a good leader, ignoring the fact that he managed to drive away the entire rest of the previous student council.

You don't need a crowd, a horde, or an army to be a leader. You only need someone who trusts and believes in you to become one--if you have a younger sibling, you're instantly a 'leader' between the two of you like it or not.

No you don't need a huge crowd to be a leader, but you kind of need a student council if you're going to be the student council president.

Besides, the smaller the group you are in, the closer you are with your 'followers' means the stronger the bond/kinship/relationship within the group.

Yet another thing Shizune blatantly proves to be false.

[rydiafan]

This is the never ending fight ... when i start this thread i thought it was gonna be burried after 15 post at the most ... fan boys/girls till the end

at this point does it matter who is better ?? Sticking up for shizune or disliking lilly won't get me a raise at work , won't get me a girl friend or what not .... it just shows we are crazy fan people who get some sort of jollies by defending our favorite character ( im honest with myself now ) lol

[Guest Poster]

I guess that'll teach ya.

[Mirrormn]

That antagonism is legit IMO considering how Shizune mentioned that the deadline she was presented with--the day she was pestered about it--was an extension per her request from her original, given deadline. And of course she mentions the extended deadline paperwork and not the one that was--by that time--overdue. Considering how she is the only class representative that has not hand in the paperwork, not to mention on an extended deadline that gives off a lot of character concerning her 'responsibility'.

Add to the fact that this paperwork is vital concerning the upcoming festival's class budget, an undermanned Student Council service who still tries to bring everything together, and a single class representative who still haven't managed to hand the necessary paperwork. Do the math and it's pretty much legit how stressed, pissed, and tired Shizune would be trying to 'fill in the blanks' of that missing budget report without accuracy. Student Council work is tough shit; I've done it, maybe some of you have done it, I don't know. But I can definitely tell you that if a significant number of class representatives/committees were unable to meet the deadline, then it's legit that the leader had established a very-very unrealistic goal.

But if only one class representative/committee failed to meet the deadline, then you have to ask yourself what the hell is going on and pester them about it--and that is also on extended deadline

Lilly already missed the first deadline. She asked for an extension, and yes I doubt she'll miss the second one after being pestered. But the fact remains that she missed the deadline everybody managed to accomplish, then proceeded to point her finger to that sick student for not making to class when it is due. If I'm in Shizune's shoe in Yamaku (which I have been in the past--not in Yamaku, of course), I'll pester the shit out of her concerning that report and I'll probably put someone else in charge by then.

I didn't really want to belabor this point overmuch, but... you're twisting the facts of the story to favor Shizune in a way that is not really supported by the text of the game. It is true that Lilly asked for the deadline to be extended, but there's no reason to believe she missed the first deadline. In fact, it is implied, by her statement that "a week is too small a time frame to expect a whole class to work out such a complex issue completely" that she asked for the deadline to be extended at the same time that it was announced (one week before the original deadline, presumably 1.5-2 weeks before the extended deadline, based one Shizune's statement that "If I had it my way, I'd have had all of the necessary paperwork days ago, but someone~! had to say 'the deadline, please extend it~!").

Furthermore, there's no reason to believe that any of the other classes met the original deadline, or that they could have done so, or that they even had any requirement to do so (since the deadline was most likely extended before any of them got to work on it). It's possible that all the other classes had their reports done before Shizune's original deadline, but it's equally as possible that they all turned theirs in the night before the extended deadline (well after the original one). There's just not any evidence in the text indicating one way or the other, so speculating about how pissed Shizune must have been when a single class was being so much slower than the others is fundamentally unfounded.

And I feel I must repeat, there was never any danger of Lilly not getting the report turned in on time. The students she delegated it to completed it (implicitly, day(s) before the fight in Cold War takes place, even), and Lilly was well aware of the deadline before Shizune's reminder.

Yeah, the best response from Shizune here would have been to delegate a student from her own class to help out Lilly's ("[Clearly, your class has been stretched to its limits preparing your elaborate project, allow me to supply additional resources.]"). I mean, Hisao is sitting right there. She isn't perfect, though. For all the glowing statements we can make about her, she's still a teenager. She doesn't always choose her challenges well.

Even that would be entirely overkill. Once Lilly said "They completed it, being capable of doing so, but the students have been sick recently, so they could not come back to school and give it back to me. If you want, I will apologize on their behalf for getting sick", all Shizune needed to respond with was "No need, just make sure I have it by the end of the day". She could also have apologized for her impolite tone earlier in the conversation ("As class rep, it's your job to be on top of things! This kind of disregard for proper procedure is really just terrible~!" was very unnecessarily accusatory, given the immediately subsequent revelation that Lilly was on top of things the whole time). Shizune really veers off the course of polite & justifiable conversation by going into a rant about how it would only take 5 minutes to walk to the students' dorms and how Lilly doesn't deserve to be class rep if she's going to delegate responsibilities. She's doing nothing more than intentionally trying to start a fight at that point.

Anyway, I don't think that one episode is really that important in painting the overall picture of either Lilly or Shizune's characters, but it annoys me to have it so grossly misinterpreted as being a focal point demonstrating Lilly's irresponsibility, when it is really nothing of the sort.

[Kayo12]

This is the never ending fight ... when i start this thread i thought it was gonna be burried after 15 post at the most ... fan boys/girls till the end

at this point does it matter who is better ?? Sticking up for shizune or disliking lilly won't get me a raise at work , won't get me a girl friend or what not .... it just shows we are crazy fan people who get some sort of jollies by defending our favorite character ( im honest with myself now ) lol

You could have prevented all of this.