Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

[Oddball]

So does Megumeru's urge to over-analyze things.


Is that really what Shizune signs, or is that what Misha translates. Bear in mind, that at this point in time, Hisao doesn't know jack-shit about hand signs, and fully rely on Misha for her to translate anything--if not everything Shizune said. Considering how she usually translates with her own liberties and the lack of 'vigor' Shizune originally have in her messages (top it off with her mistranslation and mispronunciation on some things), it is entirely possible that what Misha said is her own shopped version of what Shizune signed. This led me to believe that Misha learn sign language not too long ago, probably a month or a few weeks before Hisao is admitted--maybe more.

Misha came to this school because she wanted to learn how to teach sign language. She's been with Shizune since at least last years festival. After learning sign language, at no point does Hisao ever comment on Misha messing up translations (unless she specifically doesn't know what a word means.)


If a friend of her enemy is her enemy, what happens with Hisao starts to warm up to Hanako a bit and suddenly she's a friend of my friend instead?

personally, I don't think Shizune has anything against Hanako personally, she just tells herself that she doesn't like Hanako and uses her to take out some of her frustrations with Lilly.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Because if Shizune really, really treats Hanako as an enemy (as Lilly's friend) then she won't:
1. Let her join their group in Hanako's arc
2. Invite her to play chess in the Student Council room in Shizune's arc
3. show concern over her during her breakdown in Hanako's arc

I think you need to reread Advanced Game Theory. Shicchan humiliates Hanako and then proceeds to make grand presumptions about her (painful) history like a complete fucking twit. I don't think you could use that scene as evidence that she doesn't consider Hanako an enemy of sorts.

and if you think the conflict between Lilly and Shizune was not resolved in Shizune's arc, then you are wrong. The fishing trip, although subtle (and one of the easily missed plot points/romance point in her arc), shows the gradual reparation of their relationship. So is it only Lilly's arc that resolves the conflict between Shizune and Lilly? Nope.avi

To be fair, the resolution in Lilly's route is much more complete than any subtle changes in their behavior towards each other in Shizune's arc. I'll admit that it's definitely there, though.

[Mirrormn]

I don't think there is any reason to believe that Misha mistranslated what Shizune said about Hanako in Lunch Evolution Theory. Hisao only ever comments (in his mind, to the reader) about how effortlessly she translates, how it seems like second nature to her, and how good she is at it. She occasionally stumbles over big words (like "magnanimous"), but some high school students don't even know those kind of words in their native language. Lack of advanced vocabulary is not an indication of lack of fluency or nuance with regards to more common language.

Your underlying point is valid, though, Megumeru. Shizune doesn't truly view Hanako as an enemy (nor does she view Lilly that way, for that matter). She just has a tendency to be overly confrontational in order to stir up excitement (probably something she learned from Jigoro!), and to mask her deeper feelings.

[Megumeru]

Misha came to this school because she wanted to learn how to teach sign language. She's been with Shizune since at least last years festival. After learning sign language, at no point does Hisao ever comment on Misha messing up translations (unless she specifically doesn't know what a word means.)

I forgot about that part....

I stand corrected

personally, I don't think Shizune has anything against Hanako personally, she just tells herself that she doesn't like Hanako and uses her to take out some of her frustrations with Lilly.

that's a plausible theory. I also like your way of putting the 'friend of my friend is my friend'--that works too, and can be put into consideration.

But wouldn't that make Lilly into Shizune's friend in Hanako's route though? Considering how it wasn't elaborated or solved in this, we might never know where Hanako 'stands' in this position.

I think you need to reread Advanced Game Theory. Shicchan humiliates Hanako and then proceeds to make grand presumptions about her (painful) history like a complete fucking twit. I don't think you could use that scene as evidence that she doesn't consider Hanako an enemy of sorts.

Humiliates her, or is that her competitive nature kicking up? Is it even intentional? Shizune draws other people into her--this is told in her arc. Thing is, she draws them into her world by making them play by her rules; she selects her friends, finds the best trait out of them and maximize that potential (add that this is done mostly subconsciously with her competitive streak). Does she humiliates her? Maybe so, but does she really meant to do that? No, I don't think so. When Hanako was playing chess with Shizune, the first match (or first two?) were straight-out friendly competition--it wasn't until the third round where she decided to 'modify' the rules to make it more interesting did Hanako became a little overwhelmed by her character.

this is her competitive nature kicking up (and her subconscious way to 'select' friends)

After the chess battle, she made her conclusion about Hanako's character and her fondness towards chess. Does she know about her past? no. Does Hisao know about her past? no. But do you--the reader--know about her past? If you went through Hanako's route first, then you know how painful it is. But look at this in the perspective of the characters instead of the readers, and you'll see that Shizune meant no harm to her and gave her judgment based on what she know and what she can see.

it is to say a 'first impression' after a close-encounter.
e.g.
G1: how's that guy?
G2: 'he's cool'. <<<first impression

To be fair, the resolution in Lilly's route is much more complete than any subtle changes in their behavior towards each other in Shizune's arc. I'll admit that it's definitely there, though.

It is, and I do admit that Lilly's arc gave a far more resounding 'ending' to the conflict between Shizune and Lilly.

But who made the first move to reach that 'beginning of the end'? Shizune.

[fabio.salvador]

I disliked Shizune´s route because...

well. her GOOD ENDING leads us through a story in which that bitch hurts Hanako´s feelings, humuliates her, and then end up happy with a boyfriend... and where´s hanako? probably, sitting alone, and sad, in her room.

There´s no GOOD ending when Hanako ends up bad...

[Mysterious Stranger]

There´s no GOOD ending when Hanako ends up bad...

Well said, sir. Well said.

[Megumeru]

I disliked Shizune´s route because...

well. her GOOD ENDING leads us through a story in which that bitch hurts Hanako´s feelings, humuliates her, and then end up happy with a boyfriend... and where´s hanako? probably, sitting alone, and sad, in her room.

There´s no GOOD ending when Hanako ends up bad...

I think I've quoted a lot of things in your other post, and some of the post here pretty much highlights the point.

Now let's see, Hanako ends up bad? Hmm...
considering how she fares in Lilly's route even after Lilly "ditch" her for Hisao, she fares up pretty well with the rest of the class--even joining the newspaper club. I think I've mentioned almost 100 times before about Shizune's character and how she operates, thinks, and her rather blunt perception of her surroundings. Considering Hanako's character and how well she adapts after her birthday, as well as how well she 'swallows' things in Lilly's route, her short encounter with Shizune is just a mere 'brush' on her shoulders.

She might be shy and sensitive, but she's not that weak. Considering how she could literally bitch-slap/FUS RO DAH Hisao in her BAD ENDING, she's stronger than she is portrayed--again, the entire story is in Hisao's perspective. Do note that he--like most male characters--is playing the 'white knight' in Hanako's route; this is most noticeable in her route. If you think she's 'weak' and she ends up 'bad' in all the other routes, then you have similarly 'white-knighted' Hanako just as Hisao did in her BAD ENDING.

now what about Lilly's route?
Say that Lilly and Hanako's route pretty much goes hand in hand with the exception of one branching to the former and the other branching to the latter. Considering how she is mostly left alone in Emi, Rin, and Shizune's, Lilly's route on the other hand ties in with Hanako up until act 4. Considering Hanako's route, and the possibility of Hisao growing closer to either of them (and Hanako warming up to Hisao), then there's a chance that Hanako--in Lilly's route--has feelings for Hisao.

Yes, I'm suggesting a love triangle in here.

The thing is, again with the consideration of Hanako's character, she decided to back off and leave them alone instead of pursuing conflict between Lilly and her (or is told to back off by Lilly when she is taken outside; we'll never know); this is also attributed to her shy and her lack of self-esteem, as well as her not wanting to lose her friends (just as what she think it will happen in her route). So you, Hanako and Lilly fans, be grateful that one of the other didn't decide to pursue Hisao any further (actually, it might be possible in Hanako's route since Lilly was still in Scotland at the time. Might make a good Fan fiction topic.)

these should explain what I meant a little better:
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako

*note the gift in Hanako is not a CHESS board but a DOLL (Lilly's route)*

[alien.marksman]

She might be shy and sensitive, but she's not that weak. Considering how she could literally bitch-slap/FUS RO DAH Hisao in her BAD ENDING, she's stronger than she is portrayed--again, the entire story is in Hisao's perspective. Do note that he--like most male characters--is playing the 'white knight' in Hanako's route; this is most noticeable in her route. If you think she's 'weak' and she ends up 'bad' in all the other routes, then you have similarly 'white-knighted' Hanako just as Hisao did in her BAD ENDING.

Well Said.

I am of the belief that any girl who's path you don't go down ends up with a suitably normal/neutral ending.
The only time there's a 'Bad Ending' for any of the girls is when you (As Hisao) have a monumental cock up and receive the 'Bad End'

So at the end of/during Shizune's route (Good, bad, or otherwise) Hanako has still joined the Newspaper Club and went on that Summer Holiday trip.

[inquisitivenegro]

I disliked Shizune´s route because...

well. her GOOD ENDING leads us through a story in which that bitch hurts Hanako´s feelings, humuliates her, and then end up happy with a boyfriend... and where´s hanako? probably, sitting alone, and sad, in her room.

There´s no GOOD ending when Hanako ends up bad...

I think I've quoted a lot of things in your other post, and some of the post here pretty much highlights the point.

Now let's see, Hanako ends up bad? Hmm...
considering how she fares in Lilly's route even after Lilly "ditch" her for Hisao, she fares up pretty well with the rest of the class--even joining the newspaper club. I think I've mentioned almost 100 times before about Shizune's character and how she operates, thinks, and her rather blunt perception of her surroundings. Considering Hanako's character and how well she adapts after her birthday, as well as how well she 'swallows' things in Lilly's route, her short encounter with Shizune is just a mere 'brush' on her shoulders.

She might be shy and sensitive, but she's not that weak. Considering how she could literally bitch-slap/FUS RO DAH Hisao in her BAD ENDING, she's stronger than she is portrayed--again, the entire story is in Hisao's perspective. Do note that he--like most male characters--is playing the 'white knight' in Hanako's route; this is most noticeable in her route. If you think she's 'weak' and she ends up 'bad' in all the other routes, then you have similarly 'white-knighted' Hanako just as Hisao did in her BAD ENDING.

now what about Lilly's route?
Say that Lilly and Hanako's route pretty much goes hand in hand with the exception of one branching to the former and the other branching to the latter. Considering how she is mostly left alone in Emi, Rin, and Shizune's, Lilly's route on the other hand ties in with Hanako up until act 4. Considering Hanako's route, and the possibility of Hisao growing closer to either of them (and Hanako warming up to Hisao), then there's a chance that Hanako--in Lilly's route--has feelings for Hisao.

Yes, I'm suggesting a love triangle in here.

The thing is, again with the consideration of Hanako's character, she decided to back off and leave them alone instead of pursuing conflict between Lilly and her (or is told to back off by Lilly when she is taken outside; we'll never know); this is also attributed to her shy and her lack of self-esteem, as well as her not wanting to lose her friends (just as what she think it will happen in her route). So you, Hanako and Lilly fans, be grateful that one of the other didn't decide to pursue Hisao any further (actually, it might be possible in Hanako's route since Lilly was still in Scotland at the time. Might make a good Fan fiction topic.)

these should explain what I meant a little better:
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako

*note the gift in Hanako is not a CHESS board but a DOLL (Lilly's route)*

Maybe she treats the doll as a conjoined present from both Lily and Hisao, and the chess set as a very special gift exclusively from hisao
wait but then she would've mentioned the chess set..
urgh i dunno maybe a doll is cuter+easier to draw than a chess set

[basmimarsinan]

I didn't feel much sad because of the bad ending of the Shizune route. I think the guilt of what Hisao did that leads to the bad ending helped with that. I also agree with the idea that Shizune didn't find out what happened then, but other factors stemming from that incident had them end up in the bad ending.

On the other hand, the other ending was more disappointing because of the vague execution.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I disliked Shizune´s route because...

well. her GOOD ENDING leads us through a story in which that bitch hurts Hanako´s feelings, humuliates her, and then end up happy with a boyfriend... and where´s hanako? probably, sitting alone, and sad, in her room.

There´s no GOOD ending when Hanako ends up bad...

I think I've quoted a lot of things in your other post, and some of the post here pretty much highlights the point.

Now let's see, Hanako ends up bad? Hmm...
considering how she fares in Lilly's route even after Lilly "ditch" her for Hisao, she fares up pretty well with the rest of the class--even joining the newspaper club. I think I've mentioned almost 100 times before about Shizune's character and how she operates, thinks, and her rather blunt perception of her surroundings. Considering Hanako's character and how well she adapts after her birthday, as well as how well she 'swallows' things in Lilly's route, her short encounter with Shizune is just a mere 'brush' on her shoulders.

She might be shy and sensitive, but she's not that weak. Considering how she could literally bitch-slap/FUS RO DAH Hisao in her BAD ENDING, she's stronger than she is portrayed--again, the entire story is in Hisao's perspective. Do note that he--like most male characters--is playing the 'white knight' in Hanako's route; this is most noticeable in her route. If you think she's 'weak' and she ends up 'bad' in all the other routes, then you have similarly 'white-knighted' Hanako just as Hisao did in her BAD ENDING.

now what about Lilly's route?
Say that Lilly and Hanako's route pretty much goes hand in hand with the exception of one branching to the former and the other branching to the latter. Considering how she is mostly left alone in Emi, Rin, and Shizune's, Lilly's route on the other hand ties in with Hanako up until act 4. Considering Hanako's route, and the possibility of Hisao growing closer to either of them (and Hanako warming up to Hisao), then there's a chance that Hanako--in Lilly's route--has feelings for Hisao.

Yes, I'm suggesting a love triangle in here.

The thing is, again with the consideration of Hanako's character, she decided to back off and leave them alone instead of pursuing conflict between Lilly and her (or is told to back off by Lilly when she is taken outside; we'll never know); this is also attributed to her shy and her lack of self-esteem, as well as her not wanting to lose her friends (just as what she think it will happen in her route). So you, Hanako and Lilly fans, be grateful that one of the other didn't decide to pursue Hisao any further (actually, it might be possible in Hanako's route since Lilly was still in Scotland at the time. Might make a good Fan fiction topic.)

these should explain what I meant a little better:
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako
http://shimmie.katawa-shoujo.com/post/v ... rch=hanako

*note the gift in Hanako is not a CHESS board but a DOLL (Lilly's route)*

Er, hey, Megumeru... I'm pretty sure the guy was being facetious.

[Megumeru]

Er, hey, Megumeru... I'm pretty sure the guy was being facetious.

well, facetious or not, if I were to re-analyze both Hanako and Lilly's route the chance for this to happen is pretty high (with their characters and timing considered).

Look at it like this:
-Both of their routes happen in a similar timeline in Act I-Act II
-Both of their views/feelings for Hisao changes in Act I-Act II
-All three of them spend most of their time together in Act I-Act II
-Considering both worlds, Hisao could end up with EITHER of them. By the time it is Hanako's birthday, both girls possibly have similar level of interest towards Hisao.
-HOWEVER, considering Hisao, his interest weighs heavily on the other considering the route the player has picked (e.g. calling Lilly, buying the chess set for Hanako). Thus, Hisao can only end up with one of them.

Now, on Act III-Act IV, one of the 'opposing' party doesn't play a part as significant as they did in Act I-Act II (Lilly in Scotland, Hanako joining the Newspaper club). If I were to see it in Hanako's story line, Lilly would possibly be confronted later with Hanako telling her that 'Hisao and I are dating now' and she'll give a regretful 'congratulations' once she return from Scotland--consider, however, that this is mere assumptions. How did I come up with this? Because in Lilly's route...

...Hanako backs off. No, either she backs off on her own accord or Lilly told her that 'we are going out now' at the cabin; hell, she might've find out about it earlier when Lilly's 'healthy adolescent sex drive' kicks in that night and that morning. Considering the size of the house, the environment, time, and the noise they can make, you would know what is going on (this is just a theory). Not to mention, the next morning Lilly took Hanako to the kitchen (or was it outside?) for something--I can assume she told Hanako that 'we are dating now' so she would understand (as in ACT III-ACT IV, Hanako was out on her own in the newspaper club).

So is there a GOOD ending where Hanako doesn't end up bad? Yes, there is. The route where Hisao isn't even part of Lilly or Hanako. Because in Lilly's route, you can say that she is heartbroken and is forced to back away when her best friend took her crush/love away. While in Lilly's route, she's happy--but Lilly will be heartbroken once she knew that Hanako has won Hisao over before she has a chance.

[Guest Poster]

So is there a GOOD ending where Hanako doesn't end up bad? Yes, there is. The route where Hisao isn't even part of Lilly or Hanako. Because in Lilly's route, you can say that she is heartbroken and is forced to back away when her best friend took her crush/love away. While in Lilly's route, she's happy--but Lilly will be heartbroken once she knew that Hanako has won Hisao over before she has a chance.

I disagree.

In Lilly's route, it's arguable Hanako has to deal with a heartbreak in secret, but at the same time Lilly mentions on the way home that Hisao's friendship was good for her and made her more confident. Which in return may have made it easier for her to accept the newspaper club's offer while knowing that, when push came to shove, she still had her two best friends to fall back upon even if those two friends were now dating. Keep in mind that Hanako's not someone who'd easily dismiss friendships, due to how few of them she has...it's very likely that despite not having Hisao as a boyfriend herself, Hanako still valued Lilly and Hisao. And in Lilly's route, it's actually established that Lilly ends up sticking around to be there for her to hang out with, which certainly counts for something.

In her own route, it's Hanako who ends up with Hisao as her boyfriend, but there's no indication that Lilly sees Hisao as more than a friend. In fact, given that Lilly is actively working to get Hisao and Hanako together, I think in that route, she sees Hisao not as a potential romantic interest, but simply as a friend or (given her own white knighting tendency) an additional friend to look after. She´s much more like a mother to Hisao than a rival to Hanako in that route and without her efforts, it´s unlikely Hisao would have ended up in a relationship with Hanako at all. (since it takes Lilly calling him out on it for Hisao to reign his white knighting back in) So I don´t think Lilly would have been disappointed after hearing about Hanako and Hisao going out...more likely she´d be happy for them both and maybe even silently relieved that if she'd decide to migrate to Scotland, there'd be one less thing to worry or feel guilty about.

In any other route, Hanako doesn't get Hisao's friendship and it's still possible Lilly leaves. (it remains somewhat unclear) While it wouldn't cause Hanako to kill herself or something, she might continue living with her life on hold as she put it. I don't think THAT'd be an improvement.

[Megumeru]

So is there a GOOD ending where Hanako doesn't end up bad? Yes, there is. The route where Hisao isn't even part of Lilly or Hanako. Because in Lilly's route, you can say that she is heartbroken and is forced to back away when her best friend took her crush/love away. While in Lilly's route, she's happy--but Lilly will be heartbroken once she knew that Hanako has won Hisao over before she has a chance.

I disagree.

In Lilly's route, it's arguable Hanako has to deal with a heartbreak in secret, but at the same time Lilly mentions on the way home that Hisao's friendship was good for her and made her more confident. Which in return may have made it easier for her to accept the newspaper club's offer while knowing that, when push came to shove, she still had her two best friends to fall back upon even if those two friends were now dating. Keep in mind that Hanako's not someone who'd easily dismiss friendships, due to how few of them she has...it's very likely that despite not having Hisao as a boyfriend herself, Hanako still valued Lilly and Hisao. And in Lilly's route, it's actually established that Lilly ends up sticking around to be there for her to hang out with, which certainly counts for something.

In her own route, it's Hanako who ends up with Hisao as her boyfriend, but there's no indication that Lilly sees Hisao as more than a friend. In fact, given that Lilly is actively working to get Hisao and Hanako together, I think in that route, she sees Hisao not as a potential romantic interest, but simply as a friend or (given her own white knighting tendency) an additional friend to look after. She´s much more like a mother to Hisao than a rival to Hanako in that route and without her efforts, it´s unlikely Hisao would have ended up in a relationship with Hanako at all. (since it takes Lilly calling him out on it for Hisao to reign his white knighting back in) So I don´t think Lilly would have been disappointed after hearing about Hanako and Hisao going out...more likely she´d be happy for them both and maybe even silently relieved that if she'd decide to migrate to Scotland, there'd be one less thing to worry or feel guilty about.

In any other route, Hanako doesn't get Hisao's friendship and it's still possible Lilly leaves. (it remains somewhat unclear) While it wouldn't cause Hanako to kill herself or something, she might continue living with her life on hold as she put it. I don't think THAT'd be an improvement.

ah, that shed some new light in my view. Thank you, I stand enlightened.

I didn't meant to say that Hanako would abandon both Hisao and Lilly in Lilly's route, but it is true that she will have to deal that heartbreak on her own.

Now on Hanako's route, what about considering Lilly's character as a whole? She might be more motherly than most and is seen to be so--but keep in mind that it could also be a facade of her true character. I am not saying her 'gentleness' and her 'classy' appearance isn't really hers; it is, but do mind that she also uses it to hide certain emotions and expressions she would never dared to express in front of her friends. Take for example when Kenji accidentally tripped her when she was walking with Hisao, her sudden burst of anger was quite a 180 degree turn from the usual 'calm and refined' Lilly we thought we know.

Add to the fact that she managed to hide her leave to Scottland in her route and acted as if nothing is happening (Hisao found out through Akira).

If she could hide her going away from everyone who cares about her for an unknown duration of time (could be a week or a month, more or less), then hiding her heartbreak or her feelings for Hisao in Hanako's route is just as easy.

[Guest Poster]

You're right about Lilly's tendency to hide her feelings behind her lady facade, so I guess there's no way to absolutely tell for sure. The only thing to go by is the fact she acts different in Hanako's route than she does in her own. In her own route, she's a lot more forward with Hisao, playfully teasing him, feeling his face and commenting he's handsome and making an effort to draw him closer. Not so in Hanako's arc. If Lilly felt attraction to Hisao in Hanako's arc, she'd have acted on that in her own subtle way and she wouldn't be trying to bring Hisao and Hanako together...not even to "keep things fair". (the difference between Hisao's white knighting and Lilly's is that Lilly won't go as far as to give up her own happiness to pander to Hanako's) The fact never even makes any subtle moves towards Hisao is, I think, an argument that Lilly in Hanako's arc doesn't see Hisao as potential boyfriend material.