Hanako bad ending discussion

[Nekken]

Hanako says it wasn't rape. On the question of whether or not she was raped, she's pretty much the ultimate authority. Hisao acted recklessly -inexcusably so, in fact- by ignoring the classic red flags: actions identical to his could very easily have been rape, if Hanako had not been willing. For example, he should have stopped to check the moment she froze up. By not doing this, he abdicated his responsibility to know his partner's state of mind.

But ultimately, the core definition if rape is not in people's actions, but in their states of mind. Otherwise-identical acts can be or not be rape, depending solely on whether or not all parties involved are willing at that moment. "Fortunately" for Hisao (in quotes because luck didn't actually have anything to do with it, though from his limited perspective it might as well have), she happened to be willing. It could easily have gone another way, but according to the one person who knows for sure -Hanako herself- it didn't.

It may be that Hanako was acting on some mistaken impressions: in fact, according to the two of them, she was. People can be manipulated into such impressions, and such manipulation (if carried out and acted upon) could be considered a form of rape. But Hisao did not do this: her misinterpretation of the situation came entirely from her, with no prodding on his part. Indeed, he didn't even know it was going on. If blame can be assigned at all for this whole situation -I'm not sure it can- in this, at least, he is blameless. That doesn't excuse his recklessness, but acknowledging the lines he did not cross is as important as recognizing the lines that he did.

[Wander]

Hanako's story line, to me, was a slight disappointment. It's frustrating, cause the darn girl is unable to articulate what she actually wants until the very end of the good ending. The thing with the bad ending is, while I do think that the protagonist there acts wrong and says the wrong things, Hanako is being way more unreasonable. You don't do that shit to people who want to help you and understand you. You explain to them what the matter is. OR you say that you don't want to talk about it. People aren't friggin mind readers, some girls whom I, too, have known, seem to forget that.

The thing is, if I had been in Hisao's situation, I would have done the fckn sensible thing and said to Hanako "I want to understand you so could you please tell me, what do you want me to do? And what do you want us to be, cause I'm not sure." And then you would act accordingly.

Really, is it any harder than that? Sheesh, people just need to be more straight with each other. That's worked perfectly fine for me.

[Paddy]

She doesn't get raped in any route, but that's stuff for another discussion...or maybe past discussion, can't recall exactly.

Whomever's discussion, it was not ours. I do not think Hisao raped Hanako. It was stupid, but it was not rape.

However, that some people think it was rape is testimony to the questionable nature of what did happen. While it might not be rape, something is off about it.

But... we've been through this already.

Hanako says it wasn't rape. On the question of whether or not she was raped, she's pretty much the ultimate authority. Hisao acted recklessly -inexcusably so, in fact- by ignoring the classic red flags: actions identical to his could very easily have been rape, if Hanako had not been willing. For example, he should have stopped to check the moment she froze up. By not doing this, he abdicated his responsibility to know his partner's state of mind.

But ultimately, the core definition if rape is not in people's actions, but in their states of mind. Otherwise-identical acts can be or not be rape, depending solely on whether or not all parties involved are willing at that moment. "Fortunately" for Hisao (in quotes because luck didn't actually have anything to do with it, though from his limited perspective it might as well have), she happened to be willing. It could easily have gone another way, but according to the one person who knows for sure -Hanako herself- it didn't.

It may be that Hanako was acting on some mistaken impressions: in fact, according to the two of them, she was. People can be manipulated into such impressions, and such manipulation (if carried out and acted upon) could be considered a form of rape. But Hisao did not do this: her misinterpretation of the situation came entirely from her, with no prodding on his part. Indeed, he didn't even know it was going on. If blame can be assigned at all for this whole situation -I'm not sure it can- in this, at least, he is blameless. That doesn't excuse his recklessness, but acknowledging the lines he did not cross is as important as recognizing the lines that he did.

^This.

[Titus]

The thing is, if I had been in Hisao's situation, I would have done the fckn sensible thing and said to Hanako "I want to understand you so could you please tell me, what do you want me to do? And what do you want us to be, cause I'm not sure." And then you would act accordingly.

Really, is it any harder than that? Sheesh, people just need to be more straight with each other. That's worked perfectly fine for me.

Hisao kinda does that in the end after their night together: "How should I interpret that?".

Right there, he asks Hanako what does she want from him, what she wants their relationship to be etc.

[Mirrormn]

The thing is, if I had been in Hisao's situation, I would have done the fckn sensible thing and said to Hanako "I want to understand you so could you please tell me, what do you want me to do? And what do you want us to be, cause I'm not sure." And then you would act accordingly.

Really, is it any harder than that? Sheesh, people just need to be more straight with each other. That's worked perfectly fine for me.

Hisao kinda does that in the end after their night together: "How should I interpret that?".

Right there, he asks Hanako what does she want from him, what she wants their relationship to be etc.

Indeed, he basically did exactly that. It just took a night/morning of reflection for him to realize that he needed to.

[megiddo]

The people who believe Hanako's reaction was excessive remind me of Hisao in her bad end, absolutely without a clue as to how to act and treat someone else.

[Wander]

The people who believe Hanako's reaction was excessive remind me of Hisao in her bad end, absolutely without a clue as to how to act and treat someone else.

No, I know that Hisao's treatment in that bad end is ridiculous. My point was simply that things need to be talked through. And yes, they DO that eventually with the good ending. So, oh well...

But then again I'm sure that many relationships do fail simply because people are unable to speak things through. This obviously happens in the various bad endings of this game as well.

The Hanako story line as a whole is just missing something for me. Certainly it isn't as thoroughly developed as Lilly's was, for example. But each for their own.

[axlryder]

The people who believe Hanako's reaction was excessive remind me of Hisao in her bad end, absolutely without a clue as to how to act and treat someone else.

The reality is that it was objectively excessive. Just because it's obvious as to why she acted that way doesn't mean it was an emotionally healthy or rational reaction. However, she isn't an emotionally healthy girl. She hasn't learned how to temper her emotions or fully express her desires and feelings, she's just shoved and stuffed them her entire life. So, of course, once someone who's she has let into her shell starts to really push her buttons, she's going to flip out. Again, excessive, but understandable. I'm honestly shocked at the fact that she managed to protest for as long as she did in a calm manner. The fact that Hisao went on for as long as he did actually does seem idiotic. Like, out of character idiotic. I guess that was just the writer trying to reinforce that this was the "bad end" where Hisao says as many irreparably stupid things as he can.

[axlryder]

She doesn't get raped in any route, but that's stuff for another discussion...or maybe past discussion, can't recall exactly.

Anyway, the bad endings (except Kenji's end obviously) obviously aren't "the end of all", but most likely the end of the relationships. Same is true for Hanako's bad end.

First of all, Hanako's outburst wasn't "crazy" or unreasonable. It was sudden and uncharacteristic, but justified. Hisao really WAS out of line there in many, many ways. And not just because of the lame skin joke (she's a burn victim Nakai, you used to be more concious of landmines) or lame date joke. (she loves you, she wants a real date, not a pity date) But because of the generally patronizing attitude. Unintended, but nevertheless completely out of control. The fact that Hanako was in a really bad place emotionally at that time didn't help things. She probably wouldn't have snapped that way if she wasn't.

Sure, fights aren't always the end of a friendship/relationship (most of the time they aren't), but there's a few factors in the bad end that make the result being the end of their relationship fairly believable:

1) It wasn't so much the outburst itself that killed the relationship. By that time, the relationship was ALREADY doomed because Hisao's codependant obsession with Hanako's condition spiralled out of control, even Lilly wasn't able to revert it anymore and Hanako's outburst was the natural result of that.
2) Hisao isn't particularly confident in this path and is using Hanako's issues as a distraction for his own lack of direction. His mindset: "I may not know what to do after Yamaku nor have I sorted out my own issues, but at least I'm taking care of Hanako." Imagine somewhat with that mindset being confronted with just how badly he messed up. I doubt he'd have the courage to try and approach her after that.
3) Hanako herself may feel guilty about her outburst later (as justified as it was) and be unable to approach Hisao or even Lilly. She already has a terribly difficult time approaching others...
4) Strong relationships can handle fights, but the relationship between Hisao and Hanako was already a bit fragile, with neither of them really understanding the other.
5) Most importantly, Hanako doesn't easily let people in. Miki suggests classmates tried to approach Hanako in the past, only to hit that wall she has around herself. She let Hisao in because she felt he was different from most people. Like a kindred spirit. Him getting closer to Hanako was an exception, not a rule. But by her bad end, she certainly doesn't see him like that anymore, so I doubt she'd open up to him again.

Because of the bullying and rejection she experienced before Yamaku, Hanako has a very cynical view of friendship. In her good end, she admits she wanted to have faith in Lilly and Hisao as friends and tried to change this mindset, but was never able to trust them completely. In the good end, their relationship faces a crisis that they can mend because they both desire to be with the other and want to go the extra mile in order to salvage things including admitting some very painful truths. It was a close call, but they succeeded. The crisis in the bad end lacks that advantage, Hanako's no longer in doubt whether Hisao can be persuaded to see her as a romantic interest or not nor has Hisao started the process of curbing his white knighting himself. I don't think a park scene would come out of Hanako's outburst.

It's not the end of the world...Hanako's a resilient girl, but Hisao changing from a friend and crush into just another example of why other people were no good would no doubt add an extra layer of cynicism to Hanako's views about human relationships. I certainly don't think she'd give Hisao a chance to repair things, nor do I think Hisao would be up to it.

Good analysis. I considered many of those things after I had thought about it. My problem was that I was projecting myself onto Hisao too much (I tend to do that) so my own reaction in that situation would have been different, but also reflected my overall mindset. In my own experience with situations like that, it's not impossible to recover from a huge emotional blow with even the most guarded and damaged individuals, even if you haven't known them for very long, but the response both has to be very calculated and somewhat shocking. Hisao, like you said, was neither very grounded or aware of the situation. For his character, achieving reconciliation alone likely would have been impossible, especially given the emotional barriers that Hanako had erected the moment he gave is reasoning for seeing her, and fortified by every stupid comment he made. However, Hanako's outburst was unreasonable. You can't have a reasonable emotional outburst if it's just a byproduct of snapping. Of course it was still entirely expected and her anger justified. I mention why in the post above. Hisao's attitude was also uncharacteristically stupid. He is generally shown to be fairly analytic and perceptive. I'm assuming it was just the author trying to drive that ending home and reinforce Hisao's transformation as a character, but it felt like a stint of less than stellar writing nonetheless.

That said, I still would have liked to see the inclusion of some anger in the main storyline.

[Mirrormn]

That said, I still would have liked to see the inclusion of some anger in the main storyline.

They've got that over in Rin's route

[axlryder]

That said, I still would have liked to see the inclusion of some anger in the main storyline.

They've got that over in Rin's route

Oh lawdy don't remind me. lol

[megiddo]

hehe, objectively excessive reaction.

[Guest Poster]

When a woman being forcibly violated decides that it's for the best to stop resisting, does it stop being rape? Note that the aforementioned resistance is not always the same; a more aggressive woman is not identical to a more submissive one.

She didn't stop resisting because she never started resisting. Why didn't she show any sign of shock or surprise when he starts taking off his clothes? (compared to her WHAT??? look when Hisao tells her in a previous scene he's going to unbutton his shirt...Hanako can't surpress fear-based reactions very well) Because she was hoping for this reaction from him. She then shows several signs of wanting to go through with it: nodding and walking to the bed herself when Hisao first starts to adress her, sitting between his legs on her own, lying on her back in preparation for the intercourse and finally nodding when Hisao gives one more look of "are you sure?". And finally the smile after they settled down. Sure there were signs she was uncomfortable and nervous about this, but there were just as many signs, if not more, that she wanted to go through with it. If these signs hadn't taken place at the moments they did and Hanako would have frozen up at that point, it's very likely there would have been no intercourse.

I've heard the explanations that, merely being in public and talking to other people is already a titanic effort for Hanako and that makes her strong. But still, no one knows that, she never gives anyone a reason to believe that she isn't made of glass.

Strong is the wrong word. Resilient is more accurate. Hanako's shy and panic-prone, but she's still capable of opening up to people under the right circumstances and can appreciate the good things that happen to her. At her best moments, she can function okay, though not on an average social level. She's been through hell. Housefire that killed her parents, mom died to protect her, no other relatives, being isolated in burn ward for months, being bullied by her best friends in elementary school, being bulled and rejected in middle school and having burn scars on a large part of her body. And yet, as Lilly mentions, she's always managed to get herself back to a stable situation and she's still around rather than having killed herself years ago. By normal standards, she seems to be made of glass to people, but that's only before you realize through how much she's been and yet isn't a basket case. (a few very bad moments being the exception...her birthday among them) She's just not strong in the typical definition of the word, but if she's made of glass, she's made of glass that will crack, but not shatter.

[axlryder]

hehe, objectively excessive reaction.

Hey now bro, you can be objectively excessive. If I'm punishing my child, I can be objectively excessive. If I'm telling my friend I don't like something they're doing, I can be objectively excessive. I can guarantee that if you brought in a psychologist, they'd be like "yeah, Hanako's reaction was excessive, duh." Of course she's trying to end the relationship at that point, but she's also not in a frame of mind to fully gauge the situation and the potential ramifications of her actions. Hell, Hisao's obvious heart condition ALONE is enough reason to realize that such a shock could be potentially damaging or fatal.

[Oddball]

hehe, objectively excessive reaction.

Hey now bro, you can be objectively excessive. If I'm punishing my child, I can be objectively excessive. If I'm telling my friend I don't like something they're doing, I can be objectively excessive. I can guarantee that if you brought in a psychologist, they'd be like "yeah, Hanako's reaction was excessive, duh." Of course she's trying to end the relationship at that point, but she's also not in a frame of mind to fully gauge the situation and the potential ramifications of her actions. Hell, Hisao's obvious heart condition ALONE is enough reason to realize that such a shock could be potentially damaging or fatal.

Not being able to gauge the situation and keep control of the situation kinda goes hand in hand with loosing your temper. It's incredibly hard to flip out and keep control at the same time. Try it. It doesn't work that well.